Basic questions on Vaishnavism

[Jaskaran Singh]

I think , it is bhagavad gita , not bhagavat purana .

Sant dnyaneshwar and eknath were the topmost devotees of shri krishna . Sant dnyaneshwar was the avatar of krishna/vishnu . His mission was to spread the importance of hari nama in kaliyuga and to teach bhagavat gita in simple words .When he was 16 years old , he wrote the commentry on bhagavad gita and later on at the age of 21 on 13th day of the second half of Kartik in Shaka 1218, Dnyaneshwar entered into a permanent state of Sanjeevan Samadhi ,yogic path to attain bramhan, at Alandi in Pune in Maharashtra, India .His siblings also decided to take samadhi and within year's time they too reached at the supreme feet of vishnu .

AND EKNATH was among the disciple chain of dattatreya ( avatar of vishnu ) .

I salute to my guru and i consider them non-different from that absolute bramhan .

hari hari hari

Namaste,
This is really odd coming from someone as casteist as yourself. You do realize that d~nAneshvara was the child of a sannyAsI, right?

[jignyAsu]

In this connection, the Brahma Sutra says those who considers atma and bramhan different have all the glory of God to enjoy but they do not become the bramhan.

Namaste,

The phala adhyaya of Brahma sutra talks about only one phalam/end goal of Vedanta. It doesn't talk with 2 different phalas - one who stays seperate and other as one who unites. Besides the phala talked about here is a permanent one and a point of no return. The archirArdhi marga - path to the abode is being referred to here in great detail.

If you are not one with God, you maintain a distance from God even at that height of achievement.
Then, what will be your future?! How long will you be in Vaikuntha-Loka, Kailasa, Brahma-Loka or the Heaven where God abides? How long will you stay there? To be in that condition will be to enjoy the contemplation of the Infinite but not to become the Infinite. You have the happiness of contemplating the Infinite but you cannot become the Infinite and do what the Infinite can do. This is a peculiar aphorism in the Brahma Sutra.But dvaitian vaishnawas constantly claims that you can not become bramhan.

If you cannot become infinite bramhan , you will be finite again; if you are finite, then you have to return, having not attained moksha.

The change that leads to moksha is not a finite becoming infinite but a finite experiencing infinite. So far the aNu jiva has been experiencing objects which have a beginning and an end - prakriti. Yamadeva tempts Nachiketa towards pleasures of heaven etc but NachikEta rejects it in order to get a bliss that is permanent. So, it is the object and not the subject that is in question.

The distance from God is because of jivas' Karma/ajnyAna. When this is destroyed there is no possibility of a fall because in them the knowledge shines like the sun with no trace of ignorance whatsover. Experiencing never ending bliss they never come back.

Lord Krishna points out in 8th chapter that those who attain Him do not take birth but all worlds from Brahma are subject to desctruction. So He is definetely talking about an indestructible abode here.

Ofcourse, we are yet to reconcile infinity with NirguNa Brahman here. I mean, will a jiva become infinite or nirguNA?

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste ,jijnyasu .

please note that in Vedanta the Lord has said that Vaikuntha was created by him outside the seven covers or planes of Maya but within the field of Maya.

There it is mentioned that Maya is a sport of the God and by that sport he has created Vaikuntha and therefore Vaikuntha is the craetion of maya . The Guna Time Karma and Maya (vaikuntha ), being all only illusions cannot remain in the niguna , nirvikar bramhan .

At the time of dissolution of universe , vaikuntha and kailasa both get annihilated . Becasuse both the lokas have form . This vaikuntha is the creation and the thing which is created has an end .

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste

please note that in Vedanta the Lord has said that Vaikuntha was created by him outside the seven covers or planes of Maya but within the field of Maya.

There it is mentioned that Maya is a sport of the God and by that sport he has created Vaikuntha and therefore Vaikuntha is the craetion of maya . The Guna Time Karma and Maya (vaikuntha ), being all only illusions cannot remain in the niguna , nirvikar bramhan .

That is not true. The Lord has nowhere said that Vaikuntha was created, and it is nowhere said Vaikuntha being a creation of maya or an illusion.

At the time of dissolution of universe , vaikuntha and kailasa both get annihilated . Becasuse both the lokas have form . This vaikuntha is the creation and the thing which is created has an end .

This is also not true. Nowhere in the scriptures is said that Vaikuntha will be destroyed! In fact it is said quite the opposite. It is said that Vaikuntha will never be destroyed.
The scriptures clearly describe Vaikuntha as the eternal and imperishable abode of the Lord.

regards

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste


That is not true. The Lord has nowhere said that Vaikuntha was created, and it is nowhere said Vaikuntha being a creation of maya or an illusion.

This is also not true. Nowhere in the scriptures is said that Vaikuntha will be destroyed! In fact it is said quite the opposite. It is said that Vaikuntha will never be destroyed.
The scriptures clearly describe Vaikuntha as the eternal and imperishable abode of the Lord.

regards

Namaste , can you post the verses describing about vaikuntha ?

In gita , shri krishna declared his abode as " avyakta -formless " .Then how vaikuntha would become that ultimate bramhan ? In this way , krishna completely denied the vaikuntha as supreme abode in indirect manner . That imperishable , formless bramhan is beyond the form , name , imagination . The bramhan is where the mind can not reach , while the mind can reach at the vaikuntha and kailasa as they have form and are within the field of maya .

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste

Namaste , can you post the verses describing about vaikuntha ?

It seems that you quickly forget. In this thread we have already quoted several verses about that!
Should I repeat them again?

Bhagavad-gītā 18.56 (http://vedabase.net/bg/18/56/en) says that abode of the Lord is eternal (śāśvatam) and imperishable (avyayam). Eternal and imperishable means that this abode is never destroyed and that it exists forever, eternally. Word "imperishable" means "indestructible" or "impossible to destroy".

In Bhagavad gita 18.62 (http://vedabase.net/bg/18/62/) this abode is said to be eternal (śāśvatam):

sthānaḿ prāpsyasi śāśvatam

"you will attain transcendental peace and the supreme and eternal abode"

In gita , shri krishna declared his abode as " avyakta -formless "

Word avyakta is explained in the Sanskrit dictionary as "not manifest , unapparent , invisible , imperceptible" because we can not see it with material eyes.

In this way , krishna completely denied the vaikuntha as supreme abode in indirect manner . That imperishable , formless bramhan is beyond the form , name , imagination .

Lord Krishna did not deny Vaikuntha as the supreme abode of liberation because shruti said that yogi:

"reaches the end of the journey, the Highest abode of Visnu" (Katha Upanishad 1.3.9)

and also

"he reaches indeed that place, from whence he is not born again." (Katha Upanishad 1.3.8)

This "the end of the journey" and "he is not born again" tells us that this is a place of liberation, which is the ultimate goal for every yogi.
These verses I have already quoted in this thread.
See also Bhagavad gita 8.21:

"That which the Vedāntists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns — that is My supreme abode."

Here also "the supreme destination" and "place from which, having attained it, one never returns" tells us that this is a place of liberation, which is the ultimate goal for every yogi.

Regarding Brahman.
Brahman manifests itself as both, as formless and with form.
Lord Krishna is described as The Supreme Brahman parabrahman in Bhagavad gita 10.12 (http://vedabase.net/bg/10/12-13/) :

paraḿ brahma paraḿ dhāma / pavitraḿ paramaḿ bhavān

Lord Krishna has a human like form! This form is Brahman itself, this form is atma or paramatma itself! I explained this in another thread. Should I repeat that?
So when a liberated soul reaches Lord Krishna in Vaikuntha, this liberated soul has reached "the supreme destination", has reached "My supreme abode", has reached "the end of the journey" for every yogi, has reached the ultimate goal for every yogi, has reached The Supreme Brahman (parabrahman): paraḿ brahma paraḿ dhāma. There is no something "more supreme" than this. This is final and ultimate. This is the most supreme (the best) that can be reached!

All this is confirmed by the Puranas also. There we have a description of The Lord's abode and His devotees who all together serve Him there, serve Him eternally! This abode is eternal and imperishable.

regards

[Viraja]

Namaste friends,

Although I wish to, I do not possess the knowledge or intellectual acumen to participate in a knowledgeable 'tarka' on matters spiritual.

However, I can offer my 2 cents, I have heard of these 2 sayings in the upanyasa by Sri Velukkudi Krishnan swami:

1. That formlessness or nirgunam and formfulness of sagunam are both like 2 sides of the same coin - which simply means that because lord dwells in Vaikuntham, he is not limited to saguna aspect alone, he can be nirguni and perform duties that can be performed only by formless attribute as needed.

2. Jeevas upon mukthi, shed their subtle body or Sookshma sareera upon crossing the Viraja river that surrounds Vaikuntha, then attain a form that is similar to that of the lord and reside then forever in Vaikuntha.

Thank you.

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste Viraja

Namaste friends,

Although I wish to, I do not possess the knowledge or intellectual acumen to participate in a knowledgeable 'tarka' on matters spiritual.

However, I can offer my 2 cents, I have heard of these 2 sayings in the upanyasa by Sri Velukkudi Krishnan swami:

1. That formlessness or nirgunam and formfulness of sagunam are both like 2 sides of the same coin - which simply means that because lord dwells in Vaikuntham, he is not limited to saguna aspect alone, he can be nirguni and perform duties that can be performed only by formless attribute as needed.

2. Jeevas upon mukthi, shed their subtle body or Sookshma sareera upon crossing the Viraja river that surrounds Vaikuntha, then attain a form that is similar to that of the lord and reside then forever in Vaikuntha.

Thank you.

Exactly, I totally agree.
The Lord as Person (bhagavan) is said to be both simultaneously, saguna and nirguna.

regards

[Sudas Paijavana]

The Lord as Person (bhagavan) is said to be both simultaneously, saguna and nirguna.

Pranam-s, Jijnasa:

I really like and admire that. If there is just one overarching "parmeshwara", then it befits that Most High One to be both saguna and nirguna.

To emptily and consistently suggest that it can only be one and not both shows that we apply our material-world logic in trying to understand "something" that defies all logic, for "He/She/It" is above all dependent and independent constraints.

[jignyAsu]

Namaste Amrut.

Kindly note that I am beginner in my sampradaya. The works by my purvacharyas are like ocean but my memory and knowledge is poor.

Namaste,
Ohh, no Jivan Mukti !!! Ok. Got it. how do you define a sthita Pragya. Should I check Ramanuja Bhashya of the relevant
verses, or there is some more info in independent compositions.

One place where I remember is from Bhagavad Ramanuja's Gita Bhashya - 2:55. This describes a sthitha prajnya. I think its safe to say that a/c to all Vaishnava sampradayas [non advaitis] as long as there is karma, there is body and associatiion with prakriti and so there's nothing called a jivan mukthi. In 5:23 He mentions moksha only after death.

Bhagavan in Gita talks about moksha. What kind of moksha or mukti do Vaishnava-s take into account, as Bhagavan himself has not clarified. Is this sampradAya specific?

It is very very sampradAya specific. For us it is param sAmyam a/c to BrSu and Upanishads - attaining supreme equality to Bhagavan but never oneness. For mukthAtmAs, shEshatvam or being subservient to Him remains because that's a property of Atma [as per BrihadUp]

For Madhvas no two souls are the same and a Brahma soul can experience Bliss much more than a human soul etc. When Upanishads talk about sAmyam they possibly interpret it as saying purnam. A glass is full and so is an ocean but the quantity varies. I also heard that genders are associated with souls. Also souls themselves are sattvic, rajasic and tamasic a/c to them.

You must have heard of Gaudiya thoughts already.

So you can picture the varieties here. But Vaishnavas in general do accept an indestructible abode of the Lord where mukthAtmAs end up. If I am not wrong, Sri Vallabhacharya's sampradaya is an exception to this.

Somewhere you have asked where Ramanujacharya has mentioned Vaikuntha. I will post it when I come across this. But the term He most often uses is "Nitya Vibhuti" to describe the permanent abode. He has used this in Vedartha Sangraha etc. THis Vibhuti is the Vaikuntha, where muktAs and nityAs reside. THis is referred to in the Vedas as parama vyOman, akshara parama vyOman or vishnu's paramam padam etc.

I will respond to the rest later.