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Thread: Basic questions on Vaishnavism

  1. #1
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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Namaste Amrut bhaiya,

    I am not sure what it is meant by either of the terms 'qualitatively' and 'quantitatively' (I guess you mean jeevatman is same as paramatman as per VA too except for being confined to 1 single atman vs. everything in universe). But from what I read of VA, the jeevatman carries many of the same attributes of paramatman but is different from it. For example, the jeevatman is not all-pervasive, as in being able to be part and parcel of every atom of the cosmos, whereas the paramatman is all-pervasive. I request more knowledgeable members on VA to correct my understanding, also it would be nice to hear VA perspective on where jeevatman would reside after attaining mukthi. (Since the topic talks about Krishna ).

    PS: One might also bring into picture the various mukthi states - Kaivalyam, Sayujyam and so forth.. In VA Siddhanta, for instance, I have heard there is no provision for that type of mukthi (Sayujya?) which is the same as 'oneness with Brahman'.

    Regards.
    Namaste Viraja di,

    Just like a drop has all qualities of ocean, but it cannot be ocean, hence the macroscopic qualities are absent (all-pervasive, omnipresence, etc)


    --------

    I would also like to ask a few questions like

    Jiva resides in Vaikuntha. Does it also have a body, even a subtle one?

    Most Vaishnava-s specially Gaudiya Vaishnava-s give definition of Jiva size as per Sv. Up. 5.9, which is as small as a point of light.

    EDIT: Again, are we experiencing ourselves as Jiva or as physical body? - this is with regards to all 3 states and when staying in Vaikuntha. Someone must have known this. If the concept of Vaikuntha is not just a concept an a reality ,when someone must have experienced it and must have done abhivyakti of it (expressed it).

    P.S. ameyAtmA, welcome to the forums

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Namaste,

    Indeed as per VA the Jiva is aNu eternally. Paramatma not only is all pervading but also pervates atoms and jiva in its fullness as per Upanishad verses - "Bigger than big and smaller than small". I think this is common across all Vaishnava sampradayas. Its also well known that VA holds that muktAtma resides eternally in "Vaikuntha".

    Regarding the question of whether it has a body or not, this is answered by Brahma Sutras itself where it is said that a mukthAtma may or maynot have a body. Also, he attains param samyam but Lord alone uses His creation powers. In Upanishads also is described a detailed path to moksha. All this implies separateness.

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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Quote Originally Posted by jignyAsu View Post
    Namaste,

    Indeed as per VA the Jiva is aNu eternally. Paramatma not only is all pervading but also pervates atoms and jiva in its fullness as per Upanishad verses - "Bigger than big and smaller than small". I think this is common across all Vaishnava sampradayas. Its also well known that VA holds that muktAtma resides eternally in "Vaikuntha".

    Regarding the question of whether it has a body or not, this is answered by Brahma Sutras itself where it is said that a mukthAtma may or maynot have a body. Also, he attains param samyam but Lord alone uses His creation powers. In Upanishads also is described a detailed path to moksha. All this implies separateness.
    Namaste,

    Thank you. Practical doubts

    Does a jivan mukta live in Vaikuntha only and is the body permanent?

    Is body eternal? To experience anything, does Jiva need body and 5 senses, or it can enjoy or 'bhoga'. To exist and to enjoy is different I guess, as a premature death may result in transition period, but the jivatman resides in any of the sthoola sharira (gross physical body) of another person or even an animal or a tree.

    Apart from shastra-s, since this is reality, then someone must have described himself as jiva with / without body.

    What I am saying is that has anyone described himself a as point of light, like say Azhvar or any other great saint. There has to be an AtmAnubhUti of what shastra-s say, specially when you say, as per shastra-s, there are Jiva mukta-s

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Namaste,

    More doubts

    I have tried my best to explain advaita concepts. Now it's my turn to request fellow Vaishnava-s to clear my doubts.

    Unfortunately, from the posts by Vaishnava-s it looks like they do not accept smArta-Vaishnava-s and that there is no place for them. I wonder if all people believing and worshipping Vishnu have chosen any one of the established sampradaya, as I have met some people who do not identify themselves with any sampradaya, they simply reply, 'I am a Vaishnava, as I worship Krishna / Vishnu'. They must be smArta-s. HDF does not have a section dedicated to smArta-s, so a common Vaishnava forum and not Hare Krishna or VA, Dvaita forum is used.

    Anyways, some doubts.

    The argument goes that either anything can be real or unreal. There is no mithyA.

    I experience myself as jiva and it cannot be Brahman. Since I experience this world and jivahood, both are real. This world cannot be illusion.

    In this context, as a laymen, I experience myself as body and not as jiva. 99.9 % people do not experience subtle bodies, forget jivahood.

    Hence I would say that I am body and not jiva. I do not experience myself as jiva. This body is real.

    If I take the definition of Real as eternal (as Brahman, Jiva and Jagat are real and hence eternal), then this body is also real and hence eternal. The thing is I never experience myself as Jiva when alive. I do not know what is going to happen after death, no one comes back to tell what happens after death.

    I just want to know the reason behind the assumption that 'I am Jiva'. If you point to shastra-s that say 'I am Jiva', then why am I not experiencing who I am? I understand that I am trapped in mAyA, which is real, but still I know that I am Jiva, who is bound by the Lord's mAyA. Why I do not experience myself as Jiva and why I experience myself as body?

    Also let me know according to Vaishnavism, what is real and unreal. and please give e.g. of both and what categorizes as real and unreal i.e. e.g. jiva is real.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  5. #5

    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post
    P.S. ameyAtmA, welcome to the forums
    Thank You
    The introductory post went into an FAQ sticky thread but...

    Hello everyone. Namaste and thanks for giving me your association in this wonderful community of Hindu Dharma.
    (Since this thread is about VaikunTha, will not divert it any further, and I have received welcomes from your hearts already )

    ameyAtmA

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    Smile Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Namaste Amrut bhaiya,

    I am not sure what it is meant by either of the terms 'qualitatively' and 'quantitatively' (I guess you mean jeevatman is same as paramatman as per VA too except for being confined to 1 single atman vs. everything in universe). But from what I read of VA, the jeevatman carries many of the same attributes of paramatman but is different from it. For example, the jeevatman is not all-pervasive, as in being able to be part and parcel of every atom of the cosmos, whereas the paramatman is all-pervasive. I request more knowledgeable members on VA to correct my understanding, also it would be nice to hear VA perspective on where jeevatman would reside after attaining mukthi. (Since the topic talks about Krishna ).

    PS: One might also bring into picture the various mukthi states - Kaivalyam, Sayujyam and so forth.. In VA Siddhanta, for instance, I have heard there is no provision for that type of mukthi (Sayujya?) which is the same as 'oneness with Brahman'.

    Regards.
    Namaste , viraja .
    I don't agree with you at all . Yes , jiva is a part . But know that bhagavat purana has stated that the jiva constitues mind , intellect and prana . It is not real thing at all .Further says that it is imagined as a part . There shri krishna says that jiva gets merged in him at the time of moksha .
    You said that atma is not all-pervading .It's absolutely wrong . The gita is enough to prove all-pervading nature of atma . I thing shri krishna has described atma as 'sarvagatah -omnipresent ' . Besides , there are many supports from upanishadas and bhagavat purana .

    Shri krishna has described his real abode as ' avyakta -formless ' in BG 8.21 . He didn't mention vaikuntha loka there . I think vaikuntha is not formless which has doors to enter .

    In case of moksha , kaivalya is regarded as the highest . Bramha-bhoota state is the base of sayujyata . It is oneness with bramhan . When person's mind gets absorbed in that bramhan , then it is called bramhabhoota state .It is the base to become complete bramhan . Beyond this ,there is highest mukti ' sayujyata oe kaivalya ' . It has not even the oneness or any duality .There that devotee becomes complete bramhan in which there is not even the feeling of 'I am bramhan '
    The liberation which is known as Salokata and that which is called Sameepata became the ornaments in the ankles of Shri Hari and began to make tiny sweet sounds. Saroopta became the ankle-chains and Sayujjyata became Painjanas. All the happiness of the world is at the feet of Shri Hari and Trance finds resting place at these feet.

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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Namaste , viraja .
    I don't agree with you at all . Yes , jiva is a part . But know that bhagavat purana has stated that the jiva constitues mind , intellect and prana . It is not real thing at all .Further says that it is imagined as a part . There shri krishna says that jiva gets merged in him at the time of moksha .
    You said that atma is not all-pervading .It's absolutely wrong . The gita is enough to prove all-pervading nature of atma . I thing shri krishna has described atma as 'sarvagatah -omnipresent ' . Besides , there are many supports from upanishadas and bhagavat purana .

    Shri krishna has described his real abode as ' avyakta -formless ' in BG 8.21 . He didn't mention vaikuntha loka there . I think vaikuntha is not formless which has doors to enter .

    In case of moksha , kaivalya is regarded as the highest . Bramha-bhoota state is the base of sayujyata . It is oneness with bramhan . When person's mind gets absorbed in that bramhan , then it is called bramhabhoota state .It is the base to become complete bramhan . Beyond this ,there is highest mukti ' sayujyata oe kaivalya ' . It has not even the oneness or any duality .There that devotee becomes complete bramhan in which there is not even the feeling of 'I am bramhan '
    The liberation which is known as Salokata and that which is called Sameepata became the ornaments in the ankles of Shri Hari and began to make tiny sweet sounds. Saroopta became the ankle-chains and Sayujjyata became Painjanas. All the happiness of the world is at the feet of Shri Hari and Trance finds resting place at these feet.
    Thank you, HLK. Then I think teachings of VA (as jignyAsu ji points out) is different from that of Advaita Vaishnavism (of Smarta sect) as in VA, one cannot attain oneness with Brahman. But, it is good to know a different school of thought. Well, I have to say, the smarta way of thinking atleast eliminates one question I had always in my mind - what is the future of mukta jeevatmas? I even used to think at some point in the vast infinity of time they do get to become the deity they worshiped themselves -- the smarta Vaishnavism concept seems to point to this. Thanks again.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  8. #8

    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    But know that bhagavat purana has stated that the jiva constitues mind , intellect and prana . It is not real thing at all .Further says that it is imagined as a part .
    Dear Hinduism-Love-Krishna,

    You are sharing very good information, but can we please have the verse numbers in Shrimad BhAgavat which say this - "the jiva = mind+intellect+prANa" ? Because that will make everything utterly simple and clear.

    Thank You

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    Smile Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Thank you, HLK. Then I think teachings of VA (as jignyAsu ji points out) is different from that of Advaita Vaishnavism (of Smarta sect) as in VA, one cannot attain oneness with Brahman. But, it is good to know a different school of thought. Well, I have to say, the smarta way of thinking atleast eliminates one question I had always in my mind - what is the future of mukta jeevatmas? I even used to think at some point in the vast infinity of time they do get to become the deity they worshiped themselves -- the smarta Vaishnavism concept seems to point to this. Thanks again.
    Namaste , viraja .

    As vaikuntha has a form , it can not be the ultimate state of bramhan . Vaikuntha is the creation of god by the maya . The mukta-jivatmas of vaikuntha get sayujyata after the total dissolution of universe . But vaikuntha is not eternal imperishable . It is just imperishable .



    Hari krishna hari hari

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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Namaste,
    I am not sure I understand all the points here but let me try. Also you have to excuse me for delays in replying as I am pressed for time these days.
    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post
    Does a jivan mukta live in Vaikuntha only and is the body permanent?
    As per VA there is no jivan mukti (and I bet as per all Vaishnava sampradayas), only sthitha pragnya. As long as there is karma one is there in this world with this body and all its imperfections.
    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post
    Is body eternal?
    I am not sure I understand this. But a muktAtma takes up a body of shuddha sattva after dropping both gross and subtle bodies, if it wants. In Brahma sutras there is a discussion on what body does it take during its travel to moksha. The conclusion is that the liberated soul can have a body or not or choose to have many many bodies as a leela.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post
    Apart from shastra-s, since this is reality, then someone must have described himself as jiva with / without body.
    What I am saying is that has anyone described himself a as point of light, like say Azhvar or any other great saint. There has to be an AtmAnubhUti of what shastra-s say, specially when you say, as per shastra-s, there are Jiva mukta-s
    Aum
    The general understanding is that shAstrAs provide pramANA for something that is beyond the understanding of the limited mind/senses. I am sure Alvars have described Jivatmas somewhere. Acharyas have also described Atma as being aNu, not necessarily point of light. The experience of Alwars is a pramANA for us but the Acharyas have also proved that their experience does not contradict the shAstrAs. What I mean to say is that shAstrAs is the ultimate reference for Vaishnavas and not individual experience.

    Vaikuntha in essence has been understood to be an eternal indestructible abode where there is no time, space etc. In Purusha Suktham is also described the immortal world of the Purusha that is 3/4th. Obviously no one can describe such a world very well. The tragedy also is that those who go to Vaikuntha do not come back and shAstrAs is all that we got. Brahma Sutras also say that a mukthAtma can choose to see his ancestors if he wishes to. No one wished to see me so far

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