Can a life be interrupted?

[devotee]

Devotee ji, you said something else, which I don't think I understand:

...pre-mature deaths do occur and that is mostly the cause of dis-embodied souls.

How do you mean?

By "Pre-mature death" above, I mean death of body form.

You also mentioned that life continues after the death of the physical body until the time comes to leave the worldly body... I am making an assumption that what you meant is that the "worldly body" is the body of light given to the Jiva, not the material form we take in each birth in order to interact here in the material world?

Yes.

The shedding of the soul body being final moksha, re-merging with Brahman? Or am I misinterpreting your intent?

No. Soul can go to different paths depending upon its Karma. It can take birth again in a new Yoni, Kula, Varna etc. It can go to various celestial lokas and live there for some time and then again take birth. In all such cases, the impressions i.e. Karma i.e. the seeds which create future life-cycle for the soul gets carried all along. The Soul carries its Manas (the observing mind which gathers impressions, Intellect (which analyses and takes decisions) and Ahamkaar (which adds to the doership to actions) all along until Self-realisation occurs and all the three instruments giving indivuality to the soul get are neutralised and then it realises that It is Brahman.

OM

[Eastern Mind]

Perhaps, then, the western influence in me is the desire to contemplate such things.
I understand there is no real way to know anything, that's the nature of all of this. If we knew, we wouldn't likely be here.

Vannakkam:

Others have given you great advice.

Indeed, we have questioning minds, naturally. Past lives, what the individual soul's pattern is, and many more.

I have a couple of rhetorical questions.

Where is the answer?
Why is it I want to know this stuff?

For me personally, the answer is within, and if it is going to help me to progress along the path in some way, then I will discover (or be told) the answer in due time.

Just knowing that at one point it'll be clear is sufficient enough to drop the search, and go for something bigger.

Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

The thing I question is , how does one know it was interrupted? That would then infer someone knew that person X was to live to a prescribed date. Then instead of getting to this date it was ~cut short~.

The point is, when the body/ego is done for a certain period it is done and that's the right time. We as humans may think that is was long, short, miserable, happy, and the like. But for the universe the time this entity left this earth was exactly the right time.

praṇām

[Aanandinii]

Namaste ji,

Thank you all so much for your insights.

...I do agree that there is a thing known as free will which interferes with prarabda karma some very rare cases . But in 99. 9% of the cases , everything goes by prarabda only...

'Prarabda' was not a term/concept I knew. This is invaluable, thank you saswathy ji.

...The length of a man's life has already been determined in advance, even before a person is born. This predetermined duration of a man's life can be reduced if a person commits some kind of offense, fault or a sin during the life.
There are examples of this in the scriptures. For example it is said in the Manu-smriti 5.3-4 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu.htm)...
...It is said in the Vishnu Purana Book III: Chapter XI, http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/vp/vp085.htm...

My gratitude for the references, brahma jijnasa ji, and for the links. I have only read a condensed - and I'm sure poor - version of the Laws of Manu some time ago, and have never read Vishnu Purana. I appreciate the links very much.

By "Pre-mature death" above, I mean death of body form.

My apologies for causing confusion, Devotee ji, that wasn't my intended question. I meant to ask how dis-embodied souls influence pre-mature death?
And thank you for your kind patience in clarifying for me. I am beginning to understand.

I have a couple of rhetorical questions.

Where is the answer?
Why is it I want to know this stuff?

Good to hear from you too EM ji, thank you. By nature I am a searcher and analyzer in this life. Something like this starts poking at my mind too insistently, in my experience there is usually a reason beyond distraction. But that's just me, not necessarily applicable to others.
I understand the only real answers are inside me and I have to seek them. However, my reflections are sometimes hampered by lack of an accurate toolkit. I'm only just beginning to seriously read and study Hindu scripture and philosophy. Anything I have read previously was a decade ago or more, probably a terrible translation, and not very understood. I needed more data and as yet have no Teacher to ask. Most people here have years and/or decades of study behind them and can sometimes point us new devotees in the direction of the tools/knowledge we need in order to better reflect - but this can only happen if we ask. Even when there is no single answer, the asking is always rewarded with some insight, so is well worth it.

...The point is, when the body/ego is done for a certain period it is done and that's the right time. We as humans may think that is was long, short, miserable, happy, and the like. But for the universe the time this entity left this earth was exactly the right time.

Thank you, Yajvan ji. This wraps up all said above quite nicely. I believe I am starting to grasp this.


This thread has been incredibly helpful to me, thank you all so much for your thoughts which have pointed me in new directions of study for deeper understanding. I feel I have the tools to find my answers and respond better to friends in conversation now. I am deeply grateful.


~Pranam-s _/\_

[ganeshamylord]

If the kriyamana karma or the present life karma is extremely vicious(example when you kill a devotee of god) you might get your punishment immediately
and die a pre destined death

If you accumulate gunaateeta advaita yoga example by rishi markandeya who sought the protection of the supreme shiva you can break the chains of sanchita karma and might live and escape a pre mature death

The example of Devi Sati doesnt apply as Satis birth is beyond the karmic principles. She left the body out of Her own will and not many know that the whole daksha episode was the maya created by Sati Herself. This is taken from Srimad devi bhagawatam where Sati is the one who first decides to leave Her body so with Her maya she deludes Daksha into hating Shiva so that Daksha can be a tool in enacting Her leela. She does that because Daksa mates with his wife in presence of Adi shaktis garland in the room. Due to that disrespect Adi shakti who was living in Satis body at that time decides to quit the body and deludes daksha into hating shiva thereby forcing him to perform the yagna without inviting the Lord

Nandi became an immortal worshipping lord shiva

bhringi and banasura became immortal worshipping rudra


Hanuman living eternally is another testimony to breaks the laws of karma. Lordess Sita gave Him the boon to become an immortal and thus defied the laws.. Hence shreem mantra(lakshmi/sita) is known to bestow immortality

Dhruva worshipping Lord Vasudeva became an immortal

Sudama got material wealth more than Indra which is again against laws of nature through the grace of lord narayana

[devotee]

Namaste Aanandnii,

My apologies for causing confusion, Devotee ji, that wasn't my intended question. I meant to ask how dis-embodied souls influence pre-mature death?
And thank you for your kind patience in clarifying for me. I am beginning to understand.

Oh ! I think there is some difficulty in understanding my posts. See, Jeeva is the soul which can be within the body named as "X" or after leaving the physical body on pre-mature death continues as "X" but without a physical body (with a physical body) as his time to leave this earthly existence has not arrived. So, in this state, "X" maintains its identity and remembers his immediate past life, his desires, friends and enemies. In this state, we call it as a ghost or a disembodied soul. When the death occurs on maturity i.e. at desired time then Jeeva loses its identity (that it had in this world) very soon and gets a different identity but carries impressions of the past and goes to different subtle realms depending upon its karmas or takes birth in a physical body. If he has good karmas outweighing bad karmas then he goes to a subtle realm which is full of happiness and if he has bad karmas outweighing good karmas then he goes to a subtle realm full of sufferings. However, his stay in these subtle realms is for a limited time-period. This time-limit also depends upon his karma. Once that is time is over, he goes back to take birth in a physical body depending upon his past karma once again. So, this cycle goes on until Self-realisation or God-realisation occurs when the karmas become sterile.

Disembodied souls cannot cause one's death. One's death is decided by one's own karmas. Yes, one's karmas may create situations where disembodied souls can appear to be the cause of one's death.

OM

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

Hanuman living eternally is another testimony to breaks the laws of karma. Lordess Sita gave Him the boon to become an immortal and thus defied the laws.. Hence shreem mantra(lakshmi/sita) is known to bestow immortality

Dhruva worshipping Lord Vasudeva became an immortal

Sudama got material wealth more than Indra which is again against laws of nature through the grace of lord narayana

One must come to understand what immortal is... it is not the perpetual state of the body living on for eternity. It is the Self (ātman); so when one hears 'becomes immortal' it is the re-recognition of one's own infinite Being. This is the only thing that ever was and ever will be , as it is outside of any boundary of time. Even if one ( the body/mind complex) lives for millions of years it will come to an end. What does not come to an end is Being. If we miss this finer point then one becomes convinced and controlled by the notion of the body-mind to live for ever. This just is not the case.

iti śivaṁ

[ganeshamylord]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



One must come to understand what immortal is... it is not the perpetual state of the body living on for eternity. It is the Self (ātman); so when one hears 'becomes immortal' it is the re-recognition of one's own infinite Being. This is the only thing that ever was and ever will be , as it is outside of any boundary of time. Even if one ( the body/mind complex) lives for millions of years it will come to an end. What does not come to an end is Being. If we miss this finer point then one becomes convinced and controlled by the notion of the body-mind to live for ever. This just is not the case.

iti śivaṁ

Hello
What you have said is very true but i was quoting in the context of karma and karma breakdown. For a liberated individual there is no question of karma. The question in context of the thread is about wordly life and death.

Also once a person is liberated inside the symptoms show outside too. So if a person understands atma jnana one of the symptoms is youth. He will remain youthful forever, he will not need external food to eat,fire will not burn him and he would quit the body at his own will. The external symptoms of real spirituality as mentioned in Uddhava Gita of Bhagvata purana.

Because just as a theory needs a proof even spirituality needs a proof. We see so many gurus calling themselves devotees or saints etc but even they experience the symptoms of old age disease and death but for a true guru karmic reactions dont bind and he will glow and remain young and beautiful and he will get the power of leaving the body at his own will.
the closest i have seen is swami vivekananda and also nirmala mataji of sahaja yoga and paramahamsa yogananda who was quite radiant even at the time of death
If you go by scriptures krishna looked like 16 even at 125 years

[devotee]

One must come to understand what immortal is... it is not the perpetual state of the body living on for eternity. It is the Self (ātman); so when one hears 'becomes immortal' it is the re-recognition of one's own infinite Being. This is the only thing that ever was and ever will be , as it is outside of any boundary of time. Even if one ( the body/mind complex) lives for millions of years it will come to an end. What does not come to an end is Being. If we miss this finer point then one becomes convinced and controlled by the notion of the body-mind to live for ever. This just is not the case.

Exactly !

OM

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

Hello
The question in context of the thread is about wordly life and death.

Also once a person is liberated inside the symptoms show outside too. So if a person understands atma jnana one of the symptoms is youth. He will remain youthful forever, he will not need external food to eat,fire will not burn him and he would quit the body at his own will. The external symptoms of real spirituality as mentioned in Uddhava Gita of Bhagvata purana.

Worldly life comes and goes... death seems to do the same, but it is not so. Where then do I get my support for saying such a thing ?

If we look to chapter 2, 12th śloka of the bhāgavad gītā, kṛṣṇa-jī informs us ( via arjuna), there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men. Nor will there ever be a time when all of us shall cease to be.

This tells us without doubt of our true nature. We are not this fleeting body that crumbles, that comes and goes, but are more substantial.
We, by our core nature are akṣara - imperishable. Our body may come and go yet we are akṣaya, exempt from decay. Any impurity ( āṇava) is really not our real Self.

you also mention the following:

He will remain youthful forever, he will not need external food to eat,fire will not burn him and he would quit the body at his own will.

I look to many in the past that ate, aged and dropped the body. I look to rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi who ate, aged and left the body to the pañca mahābhūta-s ( 5 great elements). This too occurred for siddharameśvara maharāj , śrī nisargadatta maharāj , and svāmī brahmānanda sarasvatī, svāmī lakṣman-jū to name a few. The body grows old, yet the Self never changes. To this we are invincible and stainless. The body-mind comes and goes and to this the great saints recognized this truth. They saw the body for what is was , a chariot the housed the Self.
When one associates ( in full) with the Self, then the comings and goings of the body (and the universe) is just as it should be.

iti śivaṁ