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Thread: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

  1. #11
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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    It is grammatically wrong to merely call "two as one" unless there is some basis to it. For example, on the basis of human relationship, same person can be related and identified as brother, father, son and the referent is One!

    If the oneness is based on the "referent", it establishes this "all are one" idea and also corrects the grammatical scrutiny by establishing the basis of such claim. Do you think you have any proof for such fundamental basis on which they both are One and Same can be established?
    Namaste
    Grammar is a method of making our path of limited senses easy.
    If we go by grammar then even Vishnu Krishna cant be one. Nor can Gopala or Krishna or Vasudeva nor can one God be called with a 1000 names.
    Names to God represent His qualities but that doesnt mean He becomes a different entity if you call Him by a different name. Why do you think Vishnu sahasranama has Shiva as one of its name and shiva sahasranama has Krishna and gopala in it? Why do you think Ganesha is called Vishnu achintya shripati etc?
    All names refer to one Brahman. You can look at Him through red glasses or black glasses yet He remains the same unknowable one yet it is we who make distinctions based on our limited senses.

  2. #12
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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    PranAm Grames,

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    It is grammatically wrong to merely call "two as one" unless there is some basis to it.
    Not by thinking over Grammatical issues, but my taking essence from all scriptures, oneness is established. The person who has defect in his eyes can see two moons but however there's always one moon. So it doesn't matter whether one thinks there is one or not, they are always one.

    If the oneness is based on the "referent",
    Not the oneness, but the duality is based on referent. When scriptures say one god is origin of other gods, the god, who's the manifestation in form, is refereed to Nirguna Brahman having no duality, which is formless.

    Do you think you have any proof for such fundamental basis on which they both are One and Same can be established?
    There's one Siddhanta [Theorem] in spiritual world. " What is true and what is false about duality, which is itself non-existent. Whatever thought or imagined by considering duality is always unreal, having no absolute existence."
    Moreover, Krishna himself says in Bhagavata Purana that one should not think himself different from Shiva. Please note that he has never said one should see shiva in Krishna.

    If you think oneness is stated according to notion of "All is Brahman", then that also is not correct. See, some verses from Harivansha.

    Shiva says to Vishnu:

    " O Janardana, I alone am you and you alone are me. In these three worlds, there's no any difference between us either by name or by meaning. All your great names are mine only. " [ Hari. 3.88.60 ]

    Thus here complete non-dual oneness between Shiva and Vishnu is established. We come to know that this oneness is not through the notion of 'All is Brahman' as here shiva says "I am you.You are me". If the oneness is through "All is Brahman", then it should be just " I am you or You are me. " But here it is stated that 'I am you and You are me'

    Thus there's not a single difference between Shiva and Vishnu.

    Now, read some verses stating what happens when one sees duality between Shiva and Vishnu.

    In Bhavishyottar Purana, Shiva says,

    " Those stupid persons who see myself or Brahma different from Vishnu, falls down in hell and suffer there. "

    " Those evil minded people who see Brahma, Vishnu and myself differently, there incur a sin of Brahmahatya. "

    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 17 July 2014 at 11:00 AM.

  3. #13

    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by ganeshamylord View Post
    Dear Prabhu
    May be you havent read the churning of the ocean in Bhagavata where Lord Vishnu prays to Lord Shiva and seeks His protection against the poison

    And dear Prabhu you can also believe the bhagavata purana and believe that the earth is flat carried by 4 elephants Because irrespective of the fact that it is untruth as long as it gives you a peace of mind its totally fine right??
    And please read the following quote

    May be you think Bhagvata is greater than Mahabharata but itihasas are always considered above puranas And even if Vishnu or Shiva worship each other does the purana ask you to call them demigods?
    Mahabharata
    Rudra Bhakthya Thu Krishnena Jagat Vyaptham Mahathmana,
    Tham Prasadhya Thadha Devam Bhadaryam Kila Bharatha.
    Arthath Priya Harathwam Cha Sarva Lokeshu Vai Yadhaa,
    Prapthavaaneva Rajendra Suvarnaakshan Maheswaraath.
    Meaning:
    The Great Lord Krishna, due to His devotion to the Supreme Lord Rudra,has Spread All Over The Universe, Oh Bharatha, Lord Shiva pleased by His penance in Badri granted Him the boon due to which He has Attained The State Of Being More Dear,Than All The Worlds And All Aspects Of Knowledge.

    Yuge Yuge Thu Krushnena Thoshitho Vai Maheswara,
    Bhakthya Paramaya Chaiva Prathi Sruthwa Mahatmana.
    Meaning :
    Lord Maheshwara becomes pleased and happy Yugas After Yugas, By this Krishna who is THE SUPREME DEVOTEE Of Lord Shiva which is accepted by mahatmas.

    So Krishna worships Shiva in all yugas in all incarnations. Am sure you do know that the sudarshana chakra was granted to Him by Shiva. and it doesnt mean He is inferior. Just indicates that the Brahman worships His own self
    and so should we and this also says that Krishna gets His powers from Shiva

    Also do you know that sudarshana chakra was granted to Lord Vishnu by Lord Shiva?



    Dear ganeshmylord,

    You said, "May be you havent read the churning of the ocean in Bhagavata where Lord Vishnu prays to Lord Shiva and seeks His protection against the poison"

    The only reason why Lord Vishnu goes with the demigods to Shiva is just for his pastime. He doesn't actually pray to him. Read these:

    "My dear gentle wife Bhavānī, when one performs benevolent activities for others, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Hari, is very pleased. And when the Lord is pleased, I am also pleased, along with all other living creatures. Therefore, let me drink this poison, for all the living entities may thus become happy because of me." (8.7.40)

    " Manifesting Himself with thousands of hands, the Lord then appeared on the summit of Mandara Mountain, like another great mountain, and held Mandara Mountain with one hand. In the upper planetary systems, Lord Brahmā and Lord Śiva, along with Indra, King of heaven, and other demigods, offered prayers to the Lord and showered flowers upon Him." (8.7.12)

    The 4 elephants are probably allegorical. Srimad Bhagavatam does not try to be an astronomy book, but even then, it has descriptions that are close to modern scientific findings.

    Demigod simply means someone who is not God. There can only be one God. The others are demigods. So yes, by default the Puranas do want us to accept one as God and the others as demigods.

    First of all, the Mahabharata verse you quoted could be an interpolation, as no previous acharya has ever quoted it. Plus the story of Krishna worshiping Shiva perfectly shows Vishnu's supremacy. Read these:
    http://narayanastra.blogspot.com/p/p...-to-shiva.html
    http://narayanastra.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_17.html

    (NOTE: I am not affiliated with the blog described, although you must have already seen it from members like Sri Vaishnava. I only linked these because they do a good job at explaining my points. Like before, it is caustic, so I suggest only those who have an academic interest to look at these links.)

    The Sudarshana Chakra given to Vishnu by Shiva is found in Shiva/Skanda purana and those puranas have never been quoted by Acharyas as authoritative, so the story is rejected.
    Forgive my offences and inaccuracies.
    Regards.

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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    You have made some nice points but you ought to 'admit' and agree to the 'basis' on which you are or have drawn your conclusion which is, all is one Brahman!

    With that conclusion, names and forms are referring to "one Brahman" is again not very sound if you start to understand ( its your very statement). So, as long as you pronounce, write, perceive, understand, worship, honor Lord Shiva as Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu as Lord Vishnu, they cannot be One! and when the point comes to worshiping them as Brahman, you are already that ( you are That very Brahman, no more secondary realization or differentiation at this point or experience and you do not talk or argue at this level with anyone else as there is NONE other than the Brahman!)

    So, at the level of our realization and consciousness of what we are now, Vedas cannot confuse us by giving contradictions as Truth and so, you are still out of the "basis" to make them One or honor them as One and have to accept and respect that as a fact indeed!

  5. #15

    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by ganeshamylord View Post
    Namaste
    Grammar is a method of making our path of limited senses easy.
    If we go by grammar then even Vishnu Krishna cant be one. Nor can Gopala or Krishna or Vasudeva nor can one God be called with a 1000 names.
    Names to God represent His qualities but that doesnt mean He becomes a different entity if you call Him by a different name. Why do you think Vishnu sahasranama has Shiva as one of its name and shiva sahasranama has Krishna and gopala in it? Why do you think Ganesha is called Vishnu achintya shripati etc?
    All names refer to one Brahman. You can look at Him through red glasses or black glasses yet He remains the same unknowable one yet it is we who make distinctions based on our limited senses.
    Dear Prabhu,

    Why does using grammar contradict the idea that Vishnu and Krishna are one nad that one god cannot have 1000 names?

    You said, "Names to God represent His qualities but that doesnt mean He becomes a different entity if you call Him by a different name."

    I agree with this. You can refer to Vishnu as Allah, Shiva, Ganesha, etc, but in the end, you are referring only to him. Vishnu does not become Shiva if you refer to him as Shiva.

    You said, "Why do you think Vishnu sahasranama has Shiva as one of its name and shiva sahasranama has Krishna and gopala in it? Why do you think Ganesha is called Vishnu achintya shripati etc?"

    Vishnu Sahasranama has Shiva as one of its name because Vishnu is auspicious (shiva). If Shiva Sahasranama has the names Krishna and Gopal, that means that Shiva is dark (krishna) and herder of cows (gopal, although it is weird that Shiva would be called that...)

    I don't know why Ganesha is called Vishnu Shripati etc, but they have to be different meanings. Ganesha can never be the husband of Shri, so it is probably a different meaning. Either way, NONE of these gods are ever referred by the name Narayana, which is a name specifically used for ParaBrahman in Vedas.

    All names do refer to one brahman, but that Brahman is not formless.
    Forgive my inaccuracies and offences.
    Regards.

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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Doing a Quick Reply...

    What you are saying in simple words in my understanding is this...

    Its 'One' which is Vishnu and Shiva ( extrapolating to us as well - in strict sense and true realization you must be able to do that with out worries).
    Only that One can be called as One and Vishnu and Shiva cannot be called as One! ( Duality is non-existence but perceived - as long as perception exists, they are TWO, dual - a relative real with no scope to remove that relative real with out entering in to the substratum of One). So, only for those who are in the substratum of One, can admit and understand these two Duality are not real and thus non-existent or rank equal etc. ( No scope for even such thoughts in the Brahman realized state)

    Duality is based on "Referrer" and not referent - is what you are emphasizing i believe and that still means, referrer are not Same but different and might also have ranks!

    Rest of the verses you have posted are nice but they cannot establish Oneness as they are absolutely same and rank equal.

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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    With that conclusion, names and forms are referring to "one Brahman" is again not very sound if you start to understand ( its your very statement). So, as long as you pronounce, write, perceive, understand, worship, honor Lord Shiva as Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu as Lord Vishnu, they cannot be One! and when the point comes to worshiping them as Brahman, you are already that ( you are That very Brahman, no more secondary realization or differentiation at this point or experience and you do not talk or argue at this level with anyone else as there is NONE other than the Brahman!)
    !
    So you mean to say if a man is looked upon by his son in a paternal fashion but the same man being looked upon by his student in a different fashion makes him two different individuals?
    Is he two different people or is it that his son and his student look at him in two different ways?
    So if you call God SHIVA(ALL AUSPICIOUS) and if someone else calls Him VISHNU(ALL PERVADING) does that rmean He has two different qualities or does that mean Vishnu isnot auspicious and Shiva isnot all pervading?

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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Until the point of there is No Shiva, there is No Vishnu, there is no room for these two being one and same! ( assuming they are one and same is not recommended and such state cannot be explained but only can be experienced in your logic)

  9. #19
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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    You have made some nice points but you ought to 'admit' and agree to the 'basis' on which you are or have drawn your conclusion which is, all is one Brahman!
    Vasudeva Sarvam is what All is Brahman. However I didn't prove oneness through the notion of 'All is Brahman'. I'd have proved by this as well, but I know you wouldn't accept that. 'All is Brahman' is the final knowledge and few people comprehends this.

    With that conclusion, names and forms are referring to "one Brahman" is again not very sound if you start to understand ( its your very statement).
    Though this is absolutely correct, I haven't said so. I said, when scripture says that one god is origin of others, one should understand that god is praised as Nirguna formless brahman, which is origin of form and so of all gods.

    So, as long as you pronounce, write, perceive, understand, worship, honor Lord Shiva as Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu as Lord Vishnu, they cannot be One!
    Shiva and Vishnu are indifferent from Brahman. So anyone who worship either by form or by Brahman or by both, they are ultimately worshiping Brahman alone through its embodiments Krishna & Shiva.


    when the point comes to worshiping them as Brahman, you are already that ( you are That very Brahman, no more secondary realization or differentiation at this point or experience and you do not talk or argue at this level with anyone else as there is NONE other than the Brahman!)
    You don't know what's Nirguna worship of Vishnu. Shastra prescribes devotion devoid of you and I. One should worship vishnu with conviction of 'I am he - So aham. Vishnu can be worshipped personally by thinking him all-pervading brahman.

    So, at the level of our realization and consciousness of what we are now, Vedas cannot confuse us by giving contradictions as Truth and so, you are still out of the "basis" to make them One or honor them as One and have to accept and respect that as a fact indeed!
    People can see contradictions only when there is duality in their minds, otherwise not. You didn't explain my quoted verses mentioning oneness of Vishnu and Shiva. Scriptural proofs are my basis and another basis of my claim is that in scriptures God is mentioned as Nirakara. It's said that he's originally formless but for devotees he manifests himself as God having form. There are such ample logics, shastra pramana proving undeclinable oneness of Shiva & Vishnu.
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 17 July 2014 at 11:41 AM.
    Hari On!

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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Hi HK.,

    I know this thread can now run in to pages....as this is not a new topic or discussed first. I raised the questions as i wanted to see if there are any 'basis' of such claims. In fact, i tried twice ( for two different posts from two different people - that such basis is resting on One Brahman and you are actually saying the same and so i take it as your admission that, its the basis of that One Brahman, Shiva and Vishnu are same. Your explanation is good for those who believe in "All is One" so all are ranked equal - provided there is no you, i, me or us - you stated again the same in this message) OTOH, as long as we pronounce You, Me, I, Shiva, Vishnu, there is a gradation even though the You, I, Me, Us, Shiva, Ganapathi, Vishnu etc. are nothing but that One!

    Unfortunately, the basis of all is One is not expanded or allowed to be expanded to admit equality of you and me or our president and prime minister in the current state of affairs. ( What i am trying to say here is, as long as there is you, me, I, president, shiva, vishnu exists, talked about, referred, they do not enjoy equal status as a president is president and you and i are citizens with different ranks). Thats all my point!

    Hare Krshna!

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