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Thread: ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

  1. #1

    ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

    Iskcon may be said to belong to the cult of Lord Caitanya.

    But there are and never were other cult leaders allowed in ISKCON.

    Novice westerner were destined to fail---and that was the bad news.
    The good news is: it was as good as it gets for post-hippie-communue-hopping especially if you were a Hare Krishna.

    The past falldowns are par for the course. Many great people come from dysfunctional backgrounds and conversely, as said by Alfalfa, "The bigger they fall, the harder they fall" and "There for the grace of God go I".

    All serves the purpose of educating the old & wise; excepting the lazy-minded.

  2. #2

    Re: ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jivattatva
    Namaste Satay ji

    I dont think calling ISKCON a cult is hostile. ISKCON being a cult is not just MY opinion. It's an opinion by many people who got involved in it. It is also an opinion by some mental health professionals who studied the organization.

    Apart from that, even the court of law of the United States of America acknowledged the abnormal way that institution was run. I dont need to open a can of worms. They are all in the public domain if anyone cares to know the truth.

    Still, I remember that in my post I even said that "maybe they have improved through the years", so I dont think I was not trying to be balanced.



    I think you are conflating something that occured in with Scientology & how it was reported by a tabloid ["Newsweek" ???] in an American Law suit.

    The "can of worms" has been offered.

    I'd like to do the clean up work here.

    There can be complaints form devotees that were there ---but their complaint is only a review of the lack of success achieved by their managers when they were in ISKCON.

    If your city's mayor caused the city to go Bankrupt ---That does not constitute a cult.

    I will say more to whomever would like to set the record straight for everyone's edification.

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    Re: ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

    Many of their activities are cult-like. For example, telling their followers when to get up, making them chant 16 rounds a day, telling them not to associate with non-ISKCONites, forbidding them to read non-ISKCON books and magazines, saying they can't eat even vegetarian food that wasn't cooked by an ISKCONite, encouraging them to move into the temple and give all their money to the temple, and other things.

    The way I see it, Chaitanya's movement was intended for sannyasis. The Six Goswamis of Vrindavan were all sannyasis. The above mentioned things would be appropriate for sannyasis living in India. Sannyasis aren't supposed to own anything and they are supposed to eat only prasad, given to them by devotees. Because they have renounced the world, their thoughts are supposed to be wholly spiritual, and they wouldn't read secular books and magazines because they have renounced all that. They do not sleep long, so they get up early, and are constantly engaged in devotional service. They wouldn't extensively associate with those who aren't religious because those sort of people wouldn't be interested in helping a sannyasi.

    However, it would not be appropriate for a householder with a wife and family to follow all the rules for sannyasis. He has to make a living and spend time with his family, so doing an extensive amount of chanting wouldn't be practical, nor would the other things mentioned above.

    For Westerners, think about it as if a Catholic priest told his congregation that they should all get up early in the morning, come to church and pray all the services of the Divine Office (the first one is before dawn). Imagine if he said that they should recite 15 decades of the Rosary each day and spend their free time in prayer. These rules are followed by Catholic monks and nuns living in monasteries. However, they are not practical (or necessary) for lay Catholics with families.

    So the way I see ISKCON is they are trying to make householders live by rules intended for sannyasis.

  4. #4

    Re: ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

    ISKCON is a social movement.
    ISKCON parades Jaganatha to show their own incalculable pastimes.

  5. #5

    Re: ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

    their activities are cult-like. For example, telling their followers when to get up, making them chant 16 rounds a day, telling them not to associate with non-ISKCONites, forbidding them to read non-ISKCON books and magazines, saying they can't eat even vegetarian food that wasn't cooked by an ISKCONite, encouraging them to move into the temple and give all their money to the temple, and other things.

    The way I see it, Chaitanya's movement was intended for sannyasis.
    Do you notice the juncturization of two seperate worlds that you speak of?

    Yoga ashram sadhana seen as cultish sannyasi contrasted with temple life living.

    BTW, your scenario seems to be something that existed 35 years ago?
    Where would a vaishnava temple seek off street novices "encouraging them to move into the temple and give all their money to the temple"?

    This hasn't does not exist since Billy Joel had hair. This is not true.
    If anyone is encouraged to do something at a Hare Krsihna Temple, they should feel honored to sweep the floor and then consider that they have made very good progress in Bhakti-yoga.

    The HARE KRISHNAS pride themselves on teaching the art of recognizing a bonefide spiritual aspirant. 'Do not disturb the minds of the ignorant but engage them in seva-bhakti (work)'---Gita.

    It is so humorous to say ""
    when to get up,
    making them chant 16 rounds a day,
    not to associate with non-ISKCONites [you mean to say, all worldly people],
    forbidding them to read non-ISKCON books and magazines [Scott, could the devotee that you have a link with in the temple been telling things like this to scare you away? Why would they think to do that?],
    saying they can't eat even vegetarian food that wasn't cooked by an ISKCONite [IOW, Vaishnava foods vs Strangers the world over], encouraging them to move into the temple [Who lives in a temple? Just anybody who can pay the rent?]
    and give all their money to the temple [if this is correct then why are they not rich & prosperous and even more infamous?], and other things [like prasadam, kirtan].

    I just had a realization; Hare Krishna devotees that did the most difficult work done by old school Hare Krishna devotees, "Book distribution on the streets for a donation" never complained one iota about any nonsense that occured in temple politics during their Book distribution years.


    ISKCON is meant to train humans in Brahminical disciplines. Without interest in this where is authority to be a practicing yogi?

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    Re: ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

    [quote=Mohini Shakti Devi;40102]Do you notice the juncturization of two seperate worlds that you speak of?
    BTW, your scenario seems to be something that existed 35 years ago?
    Where would a vaishnava temple seek off street novices "encouraging them to move into the temple and give all their money to the temple"?
    This was mentioned by a devotee in a post on this subforum. ""Move into the temple" is the repeated mantra and if you dare to mention that you have responsibilities outside of the temple such as family or work, they criticize you without even knowing anything about you or your life. "



    not to associate with non-ISKCONites [you mean to say, all worldly people],
    From the "Six Favorable and Unfavorable Principles" in the Online Hare Krishna Temple:

    5.Associating with worldly-minded persons who are not interested in Krsna-consciousness
    There are two kinds of non-devotees; those who are against Krsna's supremacy and those who are absorbed in material sense gratification. One should strictly avoid such association. We should live only in association with Krsna-conscious devotees and always be engaged in Krsna's service in their association.

    forbidding them to read non-ISKCON books and magazines [Scott, could the devotee that you have a link with in the temple been telling things like this to scare you away? Why would they think to do that?],
    From the Online Hare Krishna Temple:

    3.Talking unnecessarily about mundane subject matters
    Those who are not interested in Krsna-consciousness like to read heaps of newspapers, solve riddles, read novels, etc. They are simply wasting their time with useless activities. In this way materialistic people waste valuable time and energy. Old people spend their days with playing cards, fishing, television and speculations about social and political topics. All these activities belong to the prajalpa category, and should be avoided by intelligent people. (by whom they mean ISKCON devotees).

    saying they can't eat even vegetarian food that wasn't cooked by an ISKCONite [IOW, Vaishnava foods vs Strangers the world over],
    From the book A Beginner's Guide to Krsna Consciousness by Bhakti Vikasa Swami:

    "Devotess who eat food cooked by persons of unclean habits and impure consciousness become contaminated by the mentality of the cook and share in their sinful karmic reations. As Lord Caitanya said, "When one eats food cooked by a materialistic person, one's mind becomes contaminated. When the mind becomes contaminated, one is unable to think of Krishna properly." (Sri Caitanya Caritamrita, Antya-lila 6.278) Therefore, devotees practice taking only krsna-prasada....The best thing is to arrange life so as to only eat krsna-prasada."

    I just had a realization; Hare Krishna devotees that did the most difficult work done by old school Hare Krishna devotees, "Book distribution on the streets for a donation" never complained one iota about any nonsense that occured in temple politics during their Book distribution years.
    I disagree with the way that ISKCON distributes books. The book distributors will come up to a person and give them a book. Sometimes they say that the book is a free book. Once the person has taken the book, they then ask the person to give a donation "to cover the cost of printing". A devotee pressed me to get money out of an ATM when I told her I didn't have any cash on me. If you give them a couple of dollars they may say "Most people give us ten dollars." Another devotee approached my in-laws at the Kantan Kali Temple in Malaysia and gave them a book. He requested the amount of the donation: 18 ringgit. This technique is described extensively in the book Where is Joey? Lost Among the Hare Krishnas where Morris Yanoff explains that they do it that way because selling at O'Hare Airport is prohibited by city ordinances.

    Another way they used to get money (I don't know if it is still practiced) is to get their women to pin flowers on travellers at the airport and then request a donation. However, they won't say that the donation is for ISKCON. They will say that it's for "the needy" or "drug addicts" or something else that sounds worthwhile. This is totally dishonest but I read that they justify it by saying that the people they solicited were going to use the money for sinful purposes; they, on the other hand, are going to use it for Krishna's service. But again, I don't know if they still do this.

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    Re: ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

    Sometimes it is very hard to differentiate the practices by few followers from the actual path laid by the acharyas and no path in SD is not affected by this unfortunate things.

    ISKCON or any spiritual organization do have more or less same kind of principles and if such principles alone give a brand name as "cult", surely there is no tinge of negativity in accepting the ISKCON as a cult as per your opinion.

    But, by following such principles sincerely, it gives the follower the greatest oppertunity to progress in Bhakthi Yoga to realize the highest goal of experiencing the Krshna Rasas. Though Bhakthi Yoga sound very simple for an outlooker, it is also a highly disciplined and ordered process of progress which require a lot of regulation.

  8. #8

    Re: ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

    Pranam Scott

    Thanks for collating the info. There are many more horrible stuff, actually. But Im tired.

    Anyway, Bhakta Jan, Mohini and Grames. Stop defending ISKCON. I know you are all newcomers.

    My advice to you is this: If we dont acknowledge the past we may be bound to repeat it.

    You can make ISKCON a better place, just learn from the past.


    BhaktaJAN

    Of course it's human nature. But does that not invalidate the findings in the past of the many people involved. And Time magazine is not a tabloid!

    And I wish to add that the ISKCON story does not invalidate the beauty of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

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    Re: ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

    gaudiya vaishnavism .... ahh . its so refreshing . mahaprabhu was a real saviour . i have no doubts about that !!



    but iskcon ? ..... thats a different story .

  10. #10

    Re: ISKCON is not and never was a cult.

    Pranams ScottMalaysia

    Although there may be genuine things wrong with an organisation made up of individuals some of the things you have mentioned are more to do with principles they follow rather than people or groups problems.

    The principles are not meant for sanysasis they are meant for devotees of Krishna. When Krishna says in the gita man mana bhava mad bhakta, he is taking about all devotees he doesnt say just sanysasis should do this.

    The 6 goswamis were not sanyasis. The eventyually retired from house hold life. Nityananda prabhu and associate of mahaprabhu was a grhasta as were many others. The principle of avoiding asat sanga and asscoiating with sat sanga is not an ISKCON principle.
    People are free to follow as much as they want put the principles cant be changed to suit people just because they dont agree and want to call them cultish.

    Whne Krishna says
    man-mana bhava mad-bhakto / mad-yaji mam namaskuru
    mam evaisyasi satyam te / pratijane priyo 'si me

    mat-manah--thinking of Me; bhava--just become; mat-bhaktah--My devo­tee; mat-yaji--My worshiper; mam--unto Me; namaskuru--offer your obeisances; mam--unto Me; eva--certainly; esyasi--you will come; satyam--truly; te--to you; pratijane--I promise; priyah--dear; asi--you are; me--to Me.

    TRANSLATION

    Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

    Someone may call him a cult leader or brain washer as he is encouraging people to only think of him always and it seems very impractical for some people. They dont have to follow, but dont label it as brain washing.
    Waking up early having a bath, reading devotional literatures etc may seem like brainwash to some who are unfamiliar to it, but those that have been raised say in India these things are satvic and aid in spiritual development.

    I can understand that sometyimes these things may not be presented by members of ISKCON or presented in a narrow way however that does not mean the principles are cultish or incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMalaysia View Post
    Many of their activities are cult-like. For example, telling their followers when to get up, making them chant 16 rounds a day, telling them not to associate with non-ISKCONites, forbidding them to read non-ISKCON books and magazines, saying they can't eat even vegetarian food that wasn't cooked by an ISKCONite, encouraging them to move into the temple and give all their money to the temple, and other things.

    The way I see it, Chaitanya's movement was intended for sannyasis. The Six Goswamis of Vrindavan were all sannyasis. The above mentioned things would be appropriate for sannyasis living in India. Sannyasis aren't supposed to own anything and they are supposed to eat only prasad, given to them by devotees. Because they have renounced the world, their thoughts are supposed to be wholly spiritual, and they wouldn't read secular books and magazines because they have renounced all that. They do not sleep long, so they get up early, and are constantly engaged in devotional service. They wouldn't extensively associate with those who aren't religious because those sort of people wouldn't be interested in helping a sannyasi.

    However, it would not be appropriate for a householder with a wife and family to follow all the rules for sannyasis. He has to make a living and spend time with his family, so doing an extensive amount of chanting wouldn't be practical, nor would the other things mentioned above.

    For Westerners, think about it as if a Catholic priest told his congregation that they should all get up early in the morning, come to church and pray all the services of the Divine Office (the first one is before dawn). Imagine if he said that they should recite 15 decades of the Rosary each day and spend their free time in prayer. These rules are followed by Catholic monks and nuns living in monasteries. However, they are not practical (or necessary) for lay Catholics with families.

    So the way I see ISKCON is they are trying to make householders live by rules intended for sannyasis.

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