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Thread: Bhakthi or is it a business transaction?

  1. #11
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    Re: Bhakthi or is it a business transaction?

    Vannakkam: I'm afraid I don't understand. Expectations? Of what exactly?

    Generally I have no expectations about this stuff. At my puja I invoke His presence, and that I kind of enjoy sitting there in it. Like opening a door to some sunshine, then enjoying its warmth. But I'm not sure if that's what you meant.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Bhakthi or is it a business transaction?

    Namaste Eastern Mind ji

    Expectation in this context means "wants".
    For the sake of discussion what you have said can also be categorized as want. You tried to invoke HIS presence and what if he ignores your invocation ? What will you do then?
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Bhakthi or is it a business transaction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    Namaste Eastern Mind ji

    Expectation in this context means "wants".
    For the sake of discussion what you have said can also be categorized as want. You tried to invoke HIS presence and what if he ignores your invocation ? What will you do then?
    Vannakkam: Oh, okay. I don't view it all as wanting. Seeking contentment, being satisfied with what you have is spoken about in the Tirukural, and elsewhere. (But I suspect you'll say seeking contentment is a want, yet it isn't if you've reached it)

    If He didn't come (hasn't happened yet, BTW) I guess the day would continue.

    But you're welcome to your view as well. I think it depends on the individual as to how they approach this. I go do seva for our local temple, and I honestly don't know what I'm getting out of it or at least rarely think about it. The fresh air and sunshine are enough. One can hardly say a person walks outside because he wants fresh air. It just happens.

    Bottom line is I believe you're talking about emotional attachment here, and some are able to practice affectionate detachment, at least some of the time.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Bhakthi or is it a business transaction?

    Namaste Eastern Mind ji

    We both have understood each others perspective and also seem to agree with the difficulties / hindrances (self) created by the devotees in their spritual progress. Further discussion on this particular subject may lead to arguments.

    In the last few months, especially last few weeks life has taught me and has taken me to different plane of thinking.

    Bhakthi is just one arm of the multi angled structure. Hopefully some day in the future shall share my line of thinking with HDF.
    Anirudh...

  5. #15

    Re: Bhakthi or is it a business transaction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    Namaste HDF
    Why a Krishna temple, on a Janmaaahtami should exite us differently.? A slokam is a slokam whether it is read for the first time or on a special occasion or everyday in your home. Of late started wondering why our mind reacts in this way.

    Great devotees and Saints never seemed to have gone through this feeling. It fascinated me when I learnt in those days every day they use walk a very long distance only to "fan" a deity idol or to bath an idol with 108 buckets of water.

    Is our mind bored with the repetition? Are we doing business with Bhagwaan under the Prayer mask?

    My intellect/ego doesn't allow me to think that I have got tired of Bhakthi but my reactions doesn't support my thinking. I am sure many would have experienced what I have explained it here.

    Have you ever asked yourself why you felt that way?
    Namaste Anirudh (may I call you Aniruddha? )

    A very good question. I can tell you of a group who has scientifically explored this question with honesty, and encouraging honesty in others -- the GaudIya VaishNav. Their emphasis of transition from vaidhi bhakti (regulated devotional practice) to rAgAnuga bhakti (following in footsteps of those whose devotion is spontaneous and motiveless) .

    However, the downside to chewing this topic too much is the danger of dragging everyone into Kindergarten and not acknowledging spontaneous love in a devotee next door simply because "they are just another kali yug human of modern day like me"

    It is the human tendency to generalize and normalize and homogenize that dulls the spontaneity with --- "It cannot be so because it is supposed to be rare"

    ----------------

    Now for the secret behind those saints who do it again and again and agin and not get tired. Walk 5 miles to fan the Deity. Bathe the Deity with buckets from the Ganga etc. These beings have hit the transcendental amrut-Ganga (eternal immortal nectar-Ganga) of prem (spontaneous Divine Love).

    Easier than that is never ever getting tired of the Holy Names and becoming a cookie monster for the Holy Names.
    Can't have enough of the Beloved Mukunda -- but this does not make the devotee-cookie-monster some wonder or a "great devotee" because this "me" in this context is non-existent! The wonder is in the Holy Names, Holy Forms, Divine qualities, pastimes of the Divine!

    Hari nAma PrabhU, Hari Himself, Hari guNa gAvA, Hari lIlA , Hari rUpa, Hari rasa Hari bhakti Hari pyAsa....

    It is NAma PrabhU that is the source of that awe and admiration, not the non-existent "devotee"

    Sant DnyAneshwar calls it the amrut-zarA (eternal waterfall of nectar ). Gauranga calls it the bhakti latA (creeper of pure devotion) that broke the outer covering of the material universe.
    What is this? It is that spontaneity, that never causes boredom, whose navaneet evergreen freshness never tapers off.

    What is this? and Where is this?
    It is in the Divinity of the Divine, the mAdhurya (sweetness) of mAdhav, vAsudevatva of vAsudev, kAruNya of the karNAsAgar, that tattva (principle) and the Source of that tattva, madhU of madhusUdan, saundarya of ShyAmsundar, daivI guNa of the nirguN, ...
    ...
    that keeps the vessel called devotee going!
    THAT is the secret.

    Triggering or invoking the amrut ZarA (eternal waterfall of nectar) is the secret.

    The point you bring in -- is
    a) The result of the amrut Zara not yet being hit, is boredom -- which means the material mundane platform has to be transcended
    b) pretence of that Zara being triggered , is the byproduct of ego not matured into nirAgas nirahamkAr nirAmay devotion.

    nirAgas == innocent, pure, free of tags and labels
    nirahamkAr == devoid of false ego or false identification with the vessel called the local body-mind-me_ness-mine_ness
    nirAmay = pure, auspicious, natural, pretense-free.

    Hari nAma PrabhU, Hari Svayam, Hari guNa gAvA, Hari lIlA , Hari rUpa, Hari rasa Hari bhakti Hari pyAsa....
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 12 September 2014 at 10:54 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  6. #16

    Re: Bhakthi or is it a business transaction?

    FOOTNOTE: Cookie-Monster is a favourite character from the very popular American children's TV Serial "Sesame Street". Cookie-monster is the blue-colored puppet who can eat an unlimited number of cookies and is always eating cookies but always wants more cookies. So what do you do? Feed him cookies.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  7. #17
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    Re: Bhakthi or is it a business transaction?

    Namaste ameyAtmA

    I think user name Aniruddha was taken already otherwise it is my first choice.

    Thanks for sharing the wonderful message.

    When the challenges of the materialistic world that we live with abundant disappointments and pain pull in different directions how can we train the mind to practise the wisdom offered.

    Not everyone can or should renounce everything. As that being the case, all evil that is necessary to get your share of food to sustain in this world either has to be compromised or Bhakthi. Generally we tend to choose to compromise Bhakthi and thats when it becomes business transaction.

    I am researching this situation, hopefully will share my conclusion when I able to connect all loose ends.

    The first step according to me is to stop viewing Bhakthi as a means to achieve/get/offer something.
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Bhakthi or is it a business transaction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    When the challenges of the materialistic world that we live with abundant disappointments and pain pull in different directions how can we train the mind to practise the wisdom offered.
    Namaskar Anirudhji,

    For me the answer is to understand and accept that incarnate, in this body, I am only viewing a very small part of an unimaginably large play, and so my view is necessarily subjective and compromised by that.

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  9. #19
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    Re: Bhakthi or is it a business transaction?

    Dear Anirudh ,
    yes . you are correct . Bhakthi is not bargain for any thing . It is overwhelming love. It gives sense of fulfilment .It is neither a business transaction because the more love you give the more you get .When one goes on loving a stage comes where there is no expectation and no feeling of gratitude and or resentment in return.It becomes as natural as breath . Of course this process is very gradual and very rare .

  10. #20

    Re: Bhakthi or is it a business transaction?

    You are most welcome, and the pleasure is mine.

    I know you are weaving a theory on this thread. Not sure if you are looking for any input but other readers may benefit from this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    When the challenges of the materialistic world that we live with abundant disappointments and pain pull in different directions how can we train the mind to practise the wisdom offered.

    Not everyone can or should renounce everything. As that being the case, all evil that is necessary to get your share of food to sustain in this world either has to be compromised or Bhakthi. Generally we tend to choose to compromise Bhakthi and thats when it becomes business transaction.

    The first step according to me is to stop viewing Bhakthi as a means to achieve/get/offer something.

    There may be evil in the world, but all you have to do is to continue depending on Shri RAmchandra PrabhU unequivocally and practice nishkAm karma yog for Him.
    He keeps His promise of
    teshAm satata yuktAnAm bhajatam preeti-pUrvakam ... dadAmi buddhi yogam tam ..... (REF: Bhagvad Gita 10.10, 10.11)
    and also
    ananyAschintayanto mAm .... yoga-kshema vahAmyaham (REF: Bhagvad Gita 9.22) [Please look up the verses for transations].

    For living in the world, nishkAm karma yoga is needed, not physical renunciation.

    Attachment to RAm , ShyAm will and should bring detachment from the world. Detachment does not mean indifference to your children or your duties. It calls for anAsaktI (non-entanglement/ hankering).

    Karma yog is easier said than done, and the best candidates for real nishkAm karma yog are the truly surrendered devotees.

    Try depending on Him fully. All the devoltee has to hold on to are Mukunda's Lotus Feet. All pieces fall in place.

    There are grihasta (householders), parents and professionals, people wearing multiple hats (roles), who could potentially be the cookie monster for everything-Mukunda.
    It does not mean you leave everything and perform Deity Worship all day. The devotee just has to know Mukunda is accompanying them everywhere!
    Some are aware of this, some are ignoring Him. People are told "take the Holy Names (NAma Prabhu) with you" [in your pocket]. I say, well, Mukunda Svayam is walking with you! Just turn and look.

    This is not a one-way street. Mukunda reciprocates, and keeps His promises.
    Where did He say so? All over Bhagvad Gita and sections of Shrimad BhAgvat (Uddhav Gita, Kapil Gita, etc.), and also personally to you.
    BG 10.10, 11, BG 9.22, BG 9.34 (manmanA madbhavo bhakto, madyAji namaskuru...) , and finally BG 18.66 (sarva dharma parityajya mAmeka sharaNam vraja aham tvam sarva pApebhyo mokshaishyAmi, mA sucha!)

    mA sucha!
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 14 September 2014 at 08:06 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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