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Thread: Impossibility/Empty Rituals

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    Impossibility/Empty Rituals

    Namaste.
    As a Western convert to Hinduism, I've begun to face many impossibilities and some empty rituals. Many rituals people are telling me to do and they are without any meaning to me. I don't want to recite a mantra that worships Surya in the morning and Chandra in the evening while at the same time believing in Shiva, "He without a second", the Supreme Being, Who is the only worthy of worship. Some things are impossible, such as puja. However, I'm told that when I want to worship Shiva the way I see fit, it's "against the Vedas" and therefore "not accepted". Is there any reconciliation between worshiping Shiva the way you see fit vs. having to worship according to the Vedas? Also, are any other Western converts facing these same issues?

    On a side note, this was the one reason why I was so interesting in Gaudiya Vaishnavism; because then I only have to chant 16 words 108 times a day to worship. Now, I have to perform empty rituals and somehow travel to temples and this is the only way I can worship.

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    Question Re: Impossibility/Empty Rituals

    Namaste Haridas


    [I'm told that when I want to worship Shiva the way I see fit, it's "against the Vedas" and therefore "not accepted"]

    How do you worship Shiva may i ask, that is against the Vedas?

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    Re: Impossibility/Empty Rituals

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuno Matos View Post
    Namaste Haridas


    [I'm told that when I want to worship Shiva the way I see fit, it's "against the Vedas" and therefore "not accepted"]

    How do you worship Shiva may i ask, that is against the Vedas?

    Namaste.
    Bhajans (sometimes in English), prostrations, prayer, and japa. I've heard mixed responses; that these are against the Vedas (as in, they are not Vedic ways to worship) and that these aren't enough.

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    Smile Re: Impossibility/Empty Rituals

    Namaste Haridas

    " Bhajans (sometimes in English), prostrations, prayer, and japa. I've heard mixed responses; that these are against the Vedas (as in, they are not Vedic ways to worship) and that these aren't enough."

    Withe the exemption of Bhajans I don't see nothing non Vedic in your worship. Maybe other愀 here on HDF have sothing to say about that.

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    Re: Impossibility/Empty Rituals

    Namaste.
    I never perform puja or aarthi because I don't have the materials. Is this OK?

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    Re: Impossibility/Empty Rituals

    Namaste Haridas,

    Don't be so hard on yourself. Sounds to me like you're doing just fine.

    Now, I have to perform empty rituals and somehow travel to temples and this is the only way I can worship.
    Who says you have to perform complex rituals or that that is the only way to worship?

    Bhajans (sometimes in English), prostrations, prayer, and japa. I've heard mixed responses; that these are against the Vedas (as in, they are not Vedic ways to worship) and that these aren't enough.
    Who is telling you these practices are against the Vedas, and these are not enough? What more do they want you to do?

    I never perform puja or aarthi because I don't have the materials. Is this OK?
    I know many people who don't perform puja and aarti at home regularly, myself being one of them.

    Don't get too caught up in musts and have tos, Haridas. Continue with your bhajans, your prayers, prostrations and japa, continue with your religious study, and attend temple when you can. Siva does not demand that we must do this and that ... just keep Him in your thoughts all the time.

    Aum Namah Shivaya,
    A.
    Last edited by Agnideva; 11 October 2007 at 10:15 PM.



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    Re: Impossibility/Empty Rituals

    Quote Originally Posted by Haridas View Post
    Namaste.
    I never perform puja or aarthi because I don't have the materials. Is this OK?
    That makes the two of us. Shiv is bolenath...please read this story if you find time: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...31&postcount=4

    I can't recall the last time I travelled to temple...hmm..I think it was last year in December on my dad's birthday.

    Going to temple is for satsang i.e. to listen to the wise talk about God...
    Dare I say that if you don't find time to go to temple, you can log in here in HDF and join satsang here...
    satay

  8. #8

    Re: Impossibility/Empty Rituals

    Quote Originally Posted by Haridas View Post
    Namaste.
    As a Western convert to Hinduism, I've begun to face many impossibilities and some empty rituals. Many rituals people are telling me to do and they are without any meaning to me. I don't want to recite a mantra that worships Surya in the morning and Chandra in the evening while at the same time believing in Shiva, "He without a second", the Supreme Being, Who is the only worthy of worship. Some things are impossible, such as puja. However, I'm told that when I want to worship Shiva the way I see fit, it's "against the Vedas" and therefore "not accepted". Is there any reconciliation between worshiping Shiva the way you see fit vs. having to worship according to the Vedas? Also, are any other Western converts facing these same issues?

    On a side note, this was the one reason why I was so interesting in Gaudiya Vaishnavism; because then I only have to chant 16 words 108 times a day to worship. Now, I have to perform empty rituals and somehow travel to temples and this is the only way I can worship.
    Strict adherence to Vedic mode of rituals is not imposed on all and certainly not to new converts. The way of the life of the dwija where from sunrise to sunset to going to bed is done under many restraints and many prostrations to many gods is meant for the true brahmin (by birth, nature, samaskaar and behaviour).

    This mode of life is not meant for just seeking God but for "lokakhema" i.e benefit of the entire universe all lifes...its a great duty entiled to a section of the community for benefit of all.

    Please don't burden yourself with such a duty when you are not ready for it. Sanatana Dharma accepts simple devotion as a means for God-realization.

    However original vedic dharma is not just about god realization for an individual but for benefit of all beings. We have forgotten this fact and the entirely social scope of our dharma and hence plunged into depths of abyss as a society. Vedic Varnashrama Dharma sets the same aim as Mahayana Buddhists ~ but the scheme is different and much more scientific for it was created by God himself.

    Namaste.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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    Re: Impossibility/Empty Rituals

    Haridas: Yes, I am a western 'convert'. Actually, I'm an adoptive technically. There is a difference. I had no religion, and therefore had less religious programming to give up before encountering and then embracing Hinduism. For me, there is no 'empty ritual'. If I felt it was empty, I wouldn't go. Some of the temple pujas are long, and can get boring, but that's only when my mind wanders. Its not that the puja is empty, its that my mind cannot hold its religiousity for a long period of time. Still, in the unseen mystical way, the very fact that I am there puts God's energy into me and much goes on in unseen ways.

    Secondly, I don't face contradictions any more. A deeper understanding sees the 'contradictions' as just words. Words can get you into trouble. I focus on the inner part. I, like many others here, do not do a lot of ritual personally, yet am able to see Siva throughout the day in small ways. I teach, and each student has eyes. Those eyes are windows to the soul, and especially during the morning singing of our national anthem, when they are all standing there looking at the flag, I see Siva. When I hear the word 'God' in the anthem, I always get 'Siva'.

    I am fortunate to spend about 6 hours a day every day during summer landscaping at our temple. I don't go inside because I'm usually dirty from gardening, yet the vibration is all over the place. I'm alone , and spend much of the time in a contemplative state whilst working away. While mowing the lawn, I chant 'Aum Namsivaya' to the hum of the lawnmower.

    I too, think you are being too hard on yourself. The eastern Hindus I have met tend to be much more relaxed about the whole thing than we westerners are. For sure, time has helped me. I used to be far more anxious about 'being a good Hindu' but from watching my Sri Lankan friends handle it, I've become more complacent. My advice would be to not get in a hurry. We are all evolving at our own rates, and getting in a hurry to be ready for more and more will just get you frustrated. Just some ideas. Aum Namsivaya.

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    Re: Impossibility/Empty Rituals

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by sm78 View Post
    Strict adherence to Vedic mode of rituals is not imposed on all and certainly not to new converts. ...is meant for the true brahmin (by birth, nature, samaskaar and behaviour).
    This mode of life is not meant for just seeking God but for "lokakhema" i.e benefit of the entire universe all lifes...its a great duty entiled to a section of the community for benefit of all.
    However original vedic dharma is not just about god realization for an individual but for benefit of all beings. We have forgotten this fact and the entirely social scope of our dharma and hence plunged into depths of abyss as a society. Namaste.

    Namaste Singhi,
    Very insightful words and well thought out.

    As the Brahmin without the quality thereof, Uttma, the birth and genes will not make up for it! The 4 fold order is the expression of the 3 gunas action. From here we get our 4 varna. We find this order in man, in the animal kingdom, etc. and our nature, as the expression of the 3 guna. Perhaps a second post on the combinations will be an intersting topic.

    Your offering in Dharma rings true. Society is the beneficiary of this. So what are those levels of dharma? Here are a few ways Dharma has been viewed via the shastra's:
    • Varna asrama dharma - ones specific dharm/duty for various stages of life, bramachara, householder, sanyas, etc.
    • Sanatana dharma - the eternal dharm of upholding creation
    • Apad dharma - dharm prescribed at time of adversity
    • Yuga dharma - the dharm fundamental to the 4 yugas, (sat, treta, dvapa, kali)
    • Sadharana dharma - general obligations of the social individual to uphold within society
    There is also the notion that dharma is a specific quality ( visesa-guna) that belongs to the SELF. Others on HDF have also talked of dharma as the Dharma chakra pravartana of the wheel of law.

    As you have said, we have forgotten. When do we remember in full as a society? Blossoming of Dharma is yuga-centric or cycle or era-centric say the wise.
    • Manu Smriti - Sat Yuga [ dharma is in full blossom]
    • Yajyavalkya Smriti - Treta Yuga [ dharma is 3/4 in bloom]
    • Sankha and Likhita - Dvapara Yuga [ dharma is 1/2 in bloom]
    • Parashara Smriti - Kali [ dharma is 1/4 in bloom ]
    May we all wake up....
    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 12 October 2007 at 08:54 PM.
    鄐能中鄐詮鄐戈鄐菽 鄐嗣凶鄐菽元鄐桌鄐賞元鄐
    yatastva廜 ivasamo'si
    because you are identical with iva

    _

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