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Thread: Please correct me

  1. #1
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    Please correct me

    During the process of incarnation, when the veil of Maya is destroyed, and with all its karmic obligations dissolved, the soul merges with the supreme reality, not to incarnate again.
    It is said that every thing that has an end has a beginning.
    This implies that when a soul incarnates for the first time, IT has no veil of Maya and is pure, therefore must be in the state of Turiya and will remain so without amassing ITSELF with any karmic load and hence must merge with the Almighty on Its first incarnation ITSELF.
    Is there any thing wrong with this argument please?

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    Re: Please correct me

    Quote Originally Posted by rkpande View Post
    During the process of incarnation, when the veil of Maya is destroyed, and with all its karmic obligations dissolved, the soul merges with the supreme reality, not to incarnate again.
    It is said that every thing that has an end has a beginning.
    This implies that when a soul incarnates for the first time, IT has no veil of Maya and is pure, therefore must be in the state of Turiya and will remain so without amassing ITSELF with any karmic load and hence must merge with the Almighty on Its first incarnation ITSELF.
    Is there any thing wrong with this argument please?
    Yeah ! There is a big problem due to slight mistake.

    When a new soul comes into being it has no veil of Maya ====> Wrong ! Then where is the question of any birth or death ? Actually there is no birth & there is no death. Please concentrate on the analogy of Sea & Waves. The rise of sense of individuality in waves that they have separate existence from the Sea ... is the ignorance & which starts the whole cycle. Why is there rise of individuality in them ? That is Its nature within the First two states of SELF.

    When a new soul comes into being, it has no Karmic load ====> Partially correct. Karmic load is not only due to Past karmas but also due to Present & Future Karmas. Under the veil of Maya (illusion of separateness from the Source), the hunger, clinging to "life" etc. takes over & to satisfy that the Karmas begin & that starts the chain reaction of Karmas & their effects.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Please correct me

    If you agree that the soul's incarnatation has a beginning then it implies that the soul has a beginning therefore it must have an end.

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    Re: Please correct me

    Quote Originally Posted by rkpande View Post
    If you agree that the soul's incarnatation has a beginning then it implies that the soul has a beginning therefore it must have an end.
    What is a soul ? How is it different from SELF ?
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Please correct me

    no difference at all

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    Re: Please correct me

    Namaste Pande ji,

    Quote Originally Posted by rkpande View Post
    no difference at all
    When we see from Advaitic viewpoint, there is no difference because there is no two. However, can there be 'birth' of the unborn, death of the 'deathless', limits of the limitless, ignorance of the omniscient, limited powers of the Omnipotent, multitude of the ONE without a second ? So, when we talk about incarnation of a soul, can it be incarnation of the SELF which is actually UNBORN, DEATHLESS & ONE without a second ?

    The answer is in Mandukya Upanishad.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Please correct me

    Namaste: Just adding my two bits. I could be wrong. The term 'soul' can mean one of two things. It can mean 'self', or it can also refer to the soul body. The soul body is a body of light that reincarnates lifetime after lifetime. This soul takes on bodies, such as the physical and astral bodies. But this soul body is not the self. The self is the essence of the soul, like a seed inside a fruit, or the DNA inside of the seed.

    So depending on how you define 'soul' the answer waill vary.

    Aum Namasivaya

  8. #8

    Re: Please correct me

    One must 'Quote Their sources' ---not 'Protect your sources from prosecution'

    Bhagavad-gita says:
    "Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all."

    The soul is the conscious life force in the body that constitutes the presence of the individual self that is animating the material temporal body that was earned by the level of consciousness.

    Eating, sleeping, mating and defending are the four catagories of activities preformed by all embodies sentient beings.

    When the self is conscious that their soul is animating the body to preform the same repetative activities birth after birth ---spiritual life begins to explore 'transcendence', above and beyond the physical material manifestation of the cosmos.

    Negation of the qualities of the manifest world is the path taken by impersonal metaphysical philosophies ---but the Vedas point, in so many voluminous writtings that there is a person behind all doings, so the soul is an individual, indivisable, unique person.

    The part and parcel pieces of individual souls that populate the cosmos are lost in a dynamic mechanical world that actually reflects the want of personal presence.

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    Re: Please correct me

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by rkpande View Post
    If you agree that the soul's incarnatation has a beginning then it implies that the soul has a beginning therefore it must have an end.
    Namasté
    What you ask can take us to the depths of wisdom and parallel to the edge of ignorance.
    Your question was also asked to Ādi Śaṅkara-ji in his Vivekacūḍāmaṇi¹.
    In the 194th and 195th śloka the śiṣya asks ( or said, uvāca) the following:

    Whether due to delusion or otherwise that the Supreme Self (parātmanaḥ) assumes that it is an individual (jīvābhavaḥ or state of being an individual), that limiting adjunct is beginningless. Of what is beginningless (anādi&#185, there can be no destruction. ||194||
    Therefore the individuality of the Supreme Self will be eternal. How can there be liberation (mokṣaḥ) from worldly existence? Please instruct me (vada). ||195||


    What you ask rkpande is parallel to this question. Śaṅkara-ji goes on to explain and give insights to this matter. He mentions ( too) that ignorance and its effects are declared to be beginningless but it is not eternal - as it is destroyed with the rise of knowledge (śloka 200 and 201).
    He then goes deeper into the relationship of the Self, the individual , the intellect, etc. and their relationships.

    Perhaps if your interest continues, you may wish to review this work, Vivekacūḍāmaṇi, with a good translation to assist you and ferret out the wisdom that it holds.


    praṇām

    words
    • Vivekacūḍāmaṇi or the Crown jewel of Discrimination ( some say crest jewel) .
    • anādi अनादि - having no beginning, existing from/for eternity
    • More discussion on Vivekacūḍāmaṇi can be found here on HDF: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4033
    Last edited by yajvan; 11 August 2009 at 09:57 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Please correct me

    Namaste,

    so dear yajvan is this meaning that we have always been with God? Since beginning and were just expressed out through manifestation at a later time? So, this is all illusory there was no such thing as birth and death. We invented it because we are stuck in our egoic mind?

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