Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 109

Thread: Who Can Learn the Veda's

  1. #11
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    223

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~~

    Namaste

    Keeping with the wisdom of 4th's, this is the 4th pada (foot) posting on Satyakama's journey.

    For this final post Satyakama is introduced to hamsa and madguste. The swan (hamsa) informs him of jyotisman ( the luminous). The water-diving bird (madguste),will give Satyakama the 4th's of ayatanavan (a person's field of operation, our foundation, our constitution).

    Hamsa tells Satyakama of the 1/4th's - he says fire (Agni) is one kala or division, the sun or Surya is another, Chandra the moon is the 3rd and lightening is another. Having four kala (divisions) is 1/4th of Brahman known as jyotisman, the Luminous. One who adores this 1/4th of Brahman as jyotisman, knowing it as these 4 kala's becomes Luminous in this world; He/She wins the luminous worlds as well.

    Madguste (the diver-bird of water) is introduced by Hamsa. The next evening, after making a fire, Madguse flys down and says shall I teach you of the next 1/4th of Brahman? Satyakama says please do.

    Madguste says Prana is one kala of Brahman, the eye is another, the ear another and the mind is yet one more. Having these, the 1/4th of Brahman is known as ayatanavan, the body's field or basis of operation. One who adores Brahman as ayatanavan, having these four parts, becomes ayatanavan in this world and wins all the worlds as his/her abode as well.

    Upon this last instruction Satyakama and the herd arrive at Gautama's home. Gautama-ji says to him, you shine like a Brahmavit ( a knower of Brahman), who did teach you? Satyakama responds, only beings other then humans [ referring to the encounters of the bull, hamsa, agni and madguste]. Satyakama says, it is my desire that you should teach me yourself. The wisdom taught by the master alone proves worthwhile.

    Gautama went on to teach Satyakama the very thing he already learnt, nothing was left out, nothing was left out ( this was how the valli ended).

    Checking the correctness given by nature, by ones experiences needs confirmation. This is what was given to Satyakama by Gautama.

    As we look to the four 1/4th's of Brahman we have:
    The Radiant - prakasavan : East, West, North, and South
    The Endless - anantavan : earth, mid-region, heaven and ocean
    The Luminous - jyotisman: Agni, Surya, Chandra and Lightening (Vajr)
    The Body's Operation - ayatanavan: Prana, eye, ear, and mind


    When I view this overall experience of Satyakama's introduction to Brahman it offers the completeness of Brahman. Brahman as all 4 directions, the infinity, limitlessness of Brahman. That of Brahman as akasha, providing the space for all things to exist in. This akasha is both physical and mental. The mental we have consciousness and in its essence it is effulgent, luminous and radiant.

    When Brahman manifests It brings all the worlds, from material ( earth) to the spiritual (heaven) and provides the consciousness to fulfill it. It offers the tattvas of Agni (energy), apa (fluid / water principle, oceans), and prthvi (earth or matter) to create life.

    As we look to these things that are macroscopic , we find Brahman in the particular, in us, with ayatanavan. Prana and life force, eyes, ears, and mind. With this story, the rishi takes us from the particulars ( the 1/4th's ) to the universal, the Fullness of 1+0 or 10. That fullness of Brahman. The wisdom that is offered by the rishi is sarvam kaahvidam brahma, All this is indeed Brahman.


    I find it of great interest that these kala's add up to 16 or sodashi. That is, 4 vidya's X 4 one-forth's offered = 16 or sodashi. This is a common theme of 4th's and sodashi in Sanatana Dharm, found in the Upanishads. If you care to look further regarding this sodashi, please consider this HDF post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1075

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 25 July 2007 at 10:11 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #12
    Join Date
    March 2007
    Location
    Lisbon/Portugal
    Posts
    230
    Rep Power
    49

    Smile Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Namaste

    From the Rig-Veda; X, xc: The Sacrifice of Primal Man


    With sacrifice the gods
    Made sacrifice to sacrifice:
    These were the first religious rites (dharma),
    To the firmament these powers went up
    Where dwell the ancient Sadhya gods.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    741
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    I believe most people have a big misconception about this topic. Brahmajnana, or knowledge of the Brahman, is meant for one who is ready to accept & understand this supreme knowledge. What this essentially means is that those who are spiritually ready to receive the knowledge may do so. It happened to be that Brahmins, because of their noble birth (and hopefully deeds/lifestyle), were the most ready to receive this Brahmajnana.

    The caste system arose to identify the strengths of each group of people and make the community as a whole stronger. It was not divisive in nature but due to the nature of man, it turned out to be that way later in practice; however not in the days of yore. It recognized people's predispositions and strengths; hence allocating a set of duties to each group.

    The Brahmins were supposed to be the most spiritually evolved and therefore ready to receive the supreme knowledge. Quoting exceptions, as done earlier, does not really make sense or prove anything. The Vedas were Sruti for this very reason; that those not initiated or ready should NOT read or attempt to learn the supreme knowledge. Furthermore, as Sri Aurobindo states in the "Secret of the Veda", the message of the Vedas can be interpreted in two ways; one is the seemingly barbarous hymns of ritual sacrifice and the other of the loftiest philosophical principles the human mind can grasp. Therefore, a person who is not ready to receive the knowledge will not get the true message and meaning of the Vedas.

    Alas it is Kali Yuga and every Tom, Dick, and Harry has tried to not only read and decipher the Vedas & the Upanishads, but has pontificated on them as if they are an authority on the subject!

    An analogy I can think of is this:

    I love Physics. In fact, my degree is in Physics. Say I want to continue to grad school in Mathematical Physics @ MIT and decide to write to them saying so. If I've demonstrated my capabilities and met their standards then I should be given admission and taken in as a student. This is because my background is in Physics! If I was a History Major (no offense to History majors ) and decided to apply for the Ph.D program in Mathematical Physics @ MIT and they didn't accept me, well, too bad for me. My disposition towards the subject as a History Major and even aptitude may not be up to par according to their standards. That is NOT discrimination! This is the SAME THING for acquiring the knowledge of the Brahman! However, that takes several lifetimes whereas for the Ph.D program in Mathematical Physics @ MIT may take a few years of concentrated study to master!

    The caste sytem is the most maligned aspect of Hindu society and the evil commie, christian, muslim proponents in India & abroad are forever slandering Hinduism because of it. Millions of people have been converted due to this misconception.

    Long story short, I firmly believe, that only initiated (Dwija) Brahmins who show certain aptitude and inclination towards the knowledge of the Supreme should be allowed to learn from a respectable and learned Guru.

    Having said that, there are many so called Brahmins who lead a very un-Brahminical lifestyle and many non-Brahmins who lead an austere life. So anyone who is ready to receive the supreme knowledge should be able to however I am not so sure how one would test that.

    Subham.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    223

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    Long story short, I firmly believe, that only initiated (Dwija) Brahmins who show certain aptitude and inclination towards the knowledge of the Supreme should be allowed to learn from a respectable and learned Guru.

    Having said that, there are many so called Brahmins who lead a very un-Brahminical lifestyle and many non-Brahmins who lead an austere life. So anyone who is ready to receive the supreme knowledge should be able to however I am not so sure how one would test that.

    Subham.
    Namaste Subham ( or do you prefer tattvamAsi?)
    thank you for your post.. let me ask your opinion here. When you say Brahmins... are you suggesting only the Brahmin by birth by DNA, or the Brahmin identified by thoughts, deeds and actions?

    As we find those blessed souls in the Chandogya Upanishad that came under guru to study that where not of Brahmin birth, in fact one did not know his lineage at all, Satyakama, but became acarya-kula-vasa ( or living with ones Master).

    Could it be you are suggesting a few can study the vedas, but perhaps all are open to svārājya¹, becoming possessed of the SELF? And leaving just the learning of the vedas to the twice born?

    What are your thoughts on this matter?

    pranams

    1. svārājya - identification with the self-effulgent , state of self-effulgence; independent rule ,sovereignty
    Last edited by yajvan; 21 January 2008 at 04:19 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #15
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    741
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    When you say Brahmins... are you suggesting only the Brahmin by birth by DNA, or the Brahmin identified by thoughts, deeds and actions?
    Good question. I myself have wondered what truly makes one a 'Brahmin' or if we can ever attribute one single quality to a person to label him a 'Brahmin'. It seems to be a conundrum in and of itself because the obvious answer would first be 'by birth', one's varna is decided. However, in the Gita, Krishna restates that through character (guna) and action (karma), one can transmigrate from one varna to another. When looking at this statement carefully, or should I just say my interpretation of this statement is, one can infer that by birth one's varna is a given, however that through 'good' action and character, they can become a 'Brahmin' in the real sense of the word even if they are of 'lower' birth. This is the crux of it in my opinion. Therefore, one's birth determines one's varna intially; however one's actions and character in life truly determines whether they are "Arya" or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Could it be you are suggesting a few can study the vedas, but perhaps all are open to svārājya, becoming possessed of the SELF? And leaving just the learning of the vedas to the twice born?

    What are your thoughts on this matter?

    pranams

    1. svārājya - identification with the self-effulgent , state of self-effulgence; independent rule ,sovereignty
    That is exactly what I'm suggesting! There is no distinction when it comes to self-realization but those who are seemingly ready to 'receive' the knowledge of the Brahman must be initiated.

    I like to remember the story of the sage Uttanka who chastises a chandala (untouchable) when asked if he would like to drink 'water' (in this case Indra bringing Amrit in the form of a mleccha) from his bowl and when rebuked, Krishna himself appears to Uttanka and tells him that he is not yet ready to receive Amrit (loosely can be translated as 'knowledge of the Supreme') as he still distinguishes people as Brahmin, chandala etc. and does not see that the Supreme Self is ONE.

    I just feel sad that people, mostly westerners and pseudo secular Indians (Hindus) themselves, tend to eschew societal practices such as the Caste System due to the misinterpretation and blatant slander of Sanathana Dharma without fully understanding its intended purpose, reason, and ultimately tradition. Modern rationalism is in some ways much more dangerous and harmful than the false words of an uneducated peasant.

    What are your thoughts on the effects of the Varnashrama Dharma (Caste System) in modern India?

    Subham.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    223

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    What are your thoughts on the effects of the Varnashrama Dharma (Caste System) in modern India?

    Subham.
    Namaste,
    I think that the vedic system has merit and is for ones spiritual development.
    Today it seems to me that this system is not being applied to its fullest and there is much to do about jātis¹.

    I am of the opinion that ones position is based upon their actions and not DNA. That this caste approach of today has become an anchor vs. a sail to ones spiritual development. This is my opinion, and seen from afar. Since I do not reside in India my opinion can be blemished by observations and not actual experience...

    That said, it seems rational to me that one can can be considered a
    brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya, or sudra based upon ones behaviors. I see this in the Upanishads, I see this in the Mahabharata e.g. Ashvattama, was the son of a powerful brahmana, but adopted the role of a warrior (kshatriya) and fought at Kurukshetra; He was admonished by Krsna as you know for not keeping within the moral code of the kshatriya.
    Vishvamitra, who was born in a kshatriya family but became brahma-rsi.

    And studing the vedas I believe is a boon, if one has the propensity for this. I think of nothing more enjoyable then reading the Upanishads.

    Yet achieving kevalya is for all... how could it not be if ones essential nature is svārājya?
    This teaching (of reaching the SELF) should be given without hesitation to those whose mind is free from doubts, to spiritual heroes, to those whose heart is open, and to those that are devoted to the Master
    ... Vijnana Bhairava tantra, karika 157 to 159.

    pranams

    1. jātis ( जाति )- birth , production; position assigned by birth , rank , caste , family , race , lineage;
    1a. Caste - The term caste comes from the Spanish and Portugueste word "casta" which means "race", "lineage", "breed". so says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste#Anthropological
    Last edited by yajvan; 22 January 2008 at 07:47 PM. Reason: added definitons in footnotes
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #17

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Dear Willie,

    The Upanisads are not meant for explaining the social and economic conditions. The primary purpose is to teach higher philosophies of how to elevate one from mundane day to day activities, morals etc. The incidents are narrated in a cryptic way with a definite purpose that one should not be led astray on these things. In the days of Upanisad, the teaching is done orally when the pupil would have ample scope to understand or ignore the aspects talked about by you.

    Hence it would not be correct to pass a judgement on the social conditions which are tens of thousands of years away from us!

  8. #18

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    So when the local alien life decides to finally show up which caste will they be put into? Untouchable? **** there goes the anal probes

    Humans have their heads stuck up their asses, as far as history has been remembered...so-called Hindus have always tried to be better than the standard of self-righteousness so I fail to see how this one lousy meme has become so prominent in India, especially - since the place is actually considered to be a very dirty and poverty stricken nation by most individuals living in the United States - obviously this caste system is not working and never really did work outside of a small village! We can't let holy books ruin our lives, obviously there are great intelligences out there - for example, Krsna didn't plop out of the sky as a scroll, he was born to a woman and I would prefer to take my advice from modern man on this subject rather than dusty texts that will fall apart - their source is far more appealing to me at this point.

    Nothing's perfect.

    I live in Memphis, Tennessee, USA, it is the birthplace of the civil rights movement. There was the reflection of caste in the white/black discrimination laws. After the movement occurred the rest of the US caught on and never looked back on its racist past, however something congealed here in Memphis itself that is a little ugly to see - whites moved out of Memphis causing a rise in the black percentage of the population. Since blacks at the time were mostly all poor and rather still persecuted, when the whites took away the wealth it set the city back a few decades and is just now rising again to its former splendor. The fact of the matter is it's now run by blacks and is just as nice as its previous state, however it goes to show you that United We Stand, Divided We Fall is really not just another soundbyte - it is the quality by which we can judge whether a nation or movement will fail or rise to stardom.

    The universe has its own agenda though, that's for sure...what will survive of Hinduism will survive only because it is allowed. I believe we can all take some part in that but ultimately it is out of our hands, because some dummies will never learn until they die a few thousand times...
    Om Hrim Kshraum Ugram Veeram Maha-Vishnum, Jwalantham Sarvatho Mukham Nrisimham Bheeshanam Bhadram Mrityu-Mrityum Namaamyaham

    Follower of Śeṣanaaga

  9. #19
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    223

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda View Post
    Nothing's perfect.
    I see your point Naomi. No thing is perfect, yet if we talk of virūpākṣāya we have an interesting conversation perhaps.
    Virūpākṣāya is He who is without (vi) form (rūpa) or shape, and is eternal (akṣāya). Since He/She is not a thing, then perfection is possible.


    Now some say it a bit differently. They say He is spotless, as rūpa or form suggests a color, and vi is opposite, so without a color; and akṣāya as we just mentioned means undecaying or eternal. Hence virūpākṣāya is spotless, without a blemish, without decay, and hence eternal, perfect.

    And who is virūpākṣāya ? Maheśvara - maheśvarāya महेश्वराय is the combination of maha मह or great, mightly, strong, abundant + īśvara ईश्वर which Lord, Supreme Being. Hence maheśvarāya is the Great and Mighty Lord , some call Śiva others Śrī Devī, others prefer Śrī Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa, Bhairava, etc.


    Said another way: ekam sad; vipra bahudha vadanti - truth is One (Being) , sages call it variously... rig veda I.164.46, ṛṣi dīrghatamas

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #20

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    "the name that can be named is not the eternal name" or tao, whichever which....

    that leaves us with a huge blank but ok, so what's new with mankind Acceptance of our own ignorance? Yeah I guess.

    I think it's this way for a reason...whatever there is doesn't want us to fully catch up, leading me to believe we're a process of some kind rather than actual *things* or *beings*. The vedas recite this as well - that we are just temporal things not meant to survive anything real (in the long run) yet in the interim there is the illusion of *lives*, selfishness and being...hmm.
    Om Hrim Kshraum Ugram Veeram Maha-Vishnum, Jwalantham Sarvatho Mukham Nrisimham Bheeshanam Bhadram Mrityu-Mrityum Namaamyaham

    Follower of Śeṣanaaga

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •