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Thread: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

  1. #11
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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by ameyAtmA View Post
    It seems that verse SB 1.3.28 is refering to the list in the verse immediately preceding it i.e. SB 1.3.27 -- which says that the ṛshī, deva, prajāpati manu, manu-putra (sons of manu) are aṃsha (parts) of the Supreme Whole nārāyaṇ. Then 1.3.28 clarifies that these beings (which are not ordinary earthlings) are all parts, parts of parts, parts of parts of parts, but Kṛshṇa is whole.

    Many take the avatār chapter like this - Shri Rām, matsya, kūrma, yajña-varāha are all bhagvān svayam. All listed avatārs are nārāyaṇ in full, but the beings specifically mentioned (ṛshi, manu, deva, manu-putra) are not fully nārāyaṇ but covered partially - at the same time they are empowered owing to being an aṃsha or kalā.
    Gaudiya vaishnavas consider that verse Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.28 refers to all the verses from the first in this chapter to 28th. Some other sampradayas think that the verse 28th refers to verses 27-28 only. I think Gaudiya vaishnavas are right because there is no valid reason to assume that the verse 28th must refer to verses 27-28 only! This means that all the gods mentioned, including Varaha, Narayana, Kurma, Nrisimha, ... etc, are parts of Lord Krishna.

    Bramhā Vishṇu Mahesh are simply roles played by Nārāyaṇ for the purpose of creation, maintenance annhilation, and the Lord Himself says no one should make a distinction between Me, Bramhā and Shiva .

    So, it does not automatically imply that these three forms (guṇāvatār of nārāyaṇ) are lesser, or jiva tattva. Bhāgvat does not say so explicitly. They are nārāyaṇ . period .
    Just because there is a verse in the Bhagavatam which says that "no one should make a distinction between Me, Bramhā and Shiva" does not mean that Brahma and guna avatara Shiva are not jiva souls. Similarly just because there are verses in the Bhagavatam which say "Bramhā Vishṇu Mahesh are simply roles played by Nārāyaṇ for the purpose of creation, maintenance annhilation" also does not mean that Brahma and guna avatara Shiva are not jiva souls. It is said that Brahma and Shiva are guna avataras of Lord Vishnu, but that does not necessarily mean that they are Vishnu tattva or Lord Vishnu Himself. Lord Vishnu is not a jiva.
    Jiva souls are subordinate to the Lord Vishnu because their existence depends on Him. In my previous posts (links in post #1 in this thread) I have already mentioned some verses to that effect.

    regards

  2. #12

    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post

    However I did not explicitly say nothing should be discussed here. We can discuss the topic proposed in post #1 with regard to Gaudiya vaishnavism though.
    Namaste,

    Yes, I know you did not say nothing should be discussed here. I perceived the conversation about bridging gaps or theological differences between various Hindu schools of thought to be unrelated to the OP and thus made a diligent and helpful and generous reminder for keepings posts in line with the OP, which expresses the general notion of God as seen in ISKCON & related Gaudiya sub-sects.

    In regards to your OP, what is the position of Shri Vishnu in regards to Lord Krishna? If I am correct, Gaudiya-s hold the theological position that Shri Vishnu is an avatāra of Lord Krishna, instead of Lord Krishna being an avatāra of Shri Vishnu, right?

    Namaste Anirudh

    you are not derailing this thread.
    I also do not believe Anirudh was derailing this thread, nor was anyone else. If my post in said question is hindering honest and progressive contribution to this thread, I request a member to let me know and I will be more than happy to edit it for deletion. I apologize for the inconvenience. Thank you.

  3. #13
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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste Sudas
    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    In regards to your OP, what is the position of Shri Vishnu in regards to Lord Krishna? If I am correct, Gaudiya-s hold the theological position that Shri Vishnu is an avatāra of Lord Krishna, instead of Lord Krishna being an avatāra of Shri Vishnu, right?
    Precisely. That's exactly what they say. It is said that Lord Krishna is not an avatāra, but is avatārī — the source of all incarnations.
    This idea is expressed in that famous verse Bhagavatam 1.3.28 (see above my post #11). Jiva Gosvami, one of the foremost acaryas in the tradition, even calls this statement of verse 1.3.28 the paribhasha-sutra or the key verse of the entire Srimad Bhagavatam, essential in order to properly understand the position of Lord Krishna who is the main topic, the sum and substance of the entire Srimad Bhagavatam. It is the statement which forms the basis of the theology of the Chaitanya school, and distinguishes it from the earlier vaishnava schools of Ramanuja and Madhvacarya.
    Jiva Gosvami also says this statement is a mahavakya, one of "The Great Sayings" such as mahavakyas in the Upanishads.

    regards

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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste Anirudh

    You should not be concerned about the fact that there are many Hindu traditions and that people of other traditions believe in another God.
    You chose what you are convinced. They choose what they are convinced. Should they be concerned about your faith?

    You know that "developing animosity or insensibility to other beliefs and sentiments" occurs when we lose the feeling we call tolerance. When we say that we should be tolerant that does not mean that we should agree with philosophical points of other traditions that are unacceptable to us. Tolerance means to accept all people as the souls in which dwells the Lord and realize that their path is different from ours.

    regards

  5. #15

    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Namaste Sudas


    Precisely. That's exactly what they say. It is said that Lord Krishna is not an avatāra, but is avatārī — the source of all incarnations.
    This idea is expressed in that famous verse Bhagavatam 1.3.28 (see above my post #11). Jiva Gosvami, one of the foremost acaryas in the tradition, even calls this statement of verse 1.3.28 the paribhasha-sutra or the key verse of the entire Srimad Bhagavatam, essential in order to properly understand the position of Lord Krishna who is the main topic, the sum and substance of the entire Srimad Bhagavatam. It is the statement which forms the basis of the theology of the Chaitanya school, and distinguishes it from the earlier vaishnava schools of Ramanuja and Madhvacarya.
    Jiva Gosvami also says this statement is a mahavakya, one of "The Great Sayings" such as mahavakyas in the Upanishads.

    regards
    Pranam-s, Jijnasa:

    Thank you for a very interesting post. I have always had a question that I have wanted to ask conservative, yet progressive, authentic, and pro-theological Gaudiya-s such as yourself. As a conservative Gaudiya that holds the Vaishnavite Scriptures as infallible and of highest authority, how do you view Jesus and how is Jesus reconciled within Gaudiya Vaishnavism? I have seen few examples in real life and online where Gaudiya-s and related ISKCON adherents express that Jesus and the Bible are compatible with Gaudiya Dharma. As per your theological evaluation of the honorable Vaishnava Scriptures as it pertains to the Gaudiya perspective, are they compatible with Gaudiya Dharma? Is Jesus an Avatara of Lord Krishna? Is it theologically valid to even correlate the two as per the Gaudiya perspective? Is it traditional to do so? How does Gaudiya Dharma and the Gaudiya perspective see or evaluate this syncretism? Does it conflict with traditional Gaudiya concepts of Godhead? Many syncretists will stress that both Jesus and Krishna are Avatara-s of [a] God, but as per your assessment of the honorable Gaudiya-related and Vaishnava-related scriptures, Lord Krishna cannot be an Avatara of God, since He is Swayam Bhagwan Himself. Therefore, how do traditional Gaudiya-s such as yourself address the statement that Jesus and Krishna are similar? May you be kind as to answer as many of the above questions as possible? Please take your time. No rush. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. Dhanyavada.

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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Namaste Anirudh

    You should not be concerned about the fact that there are many Hindu traditions and that people of other traditions believe in another God.
    You chose what you are convinced. They choose what they are convinced. Should they be concerned about your faith?

    You know that "developing animosity or insensibility to other beliefs and sentiments" occurs when we lose the feeling we call tolerance. When we say that we should be tolerant that does not mean that we should agree with philosophical points of other traditions that are unacceptable to us. Tolerance means to accept all people as the souls in which dwells the Lord and realize that their path is different from ours.

    regards
    Thank you very much, I have sent you a PM .

    No need to reply, i made it as a PM because it can be construed as deviation

    Thanks again for sharing your valuable views.
    Anirudh...

  7. #17
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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Hare Krsna,

    Respected Sudas Paijavana ji, has asked specifically of respected Jijnasa ji, yet it is requested on open forum and would humbly like to answer as well.
    Analyzing what you have asked:
    • As a conservative Gaudiya that holds the Vaishnavite Scriptures as infallible and of highest authority, how do you view Jesus

    This question is asked with a qualification that Vaishnav scriptures are infallible and of highest authority. We believe the Vedas and Upanishads are Apaurusheya perceived by the Rishis who heard Sound vibrations of Shabda swaroop of the Eternal.
    yatra cādyaḥ pumān āste
    bhagavān śabda-gocaraḥ
    sattvaḿ viṣṭabhya virajaḿ
    svānāḿ no mṛḍayan vṛṣaḥ

    In the
    Vaikuṇṭha planets is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the original person and who can be understood through the Vedic literature. He is full of the uncontaminated mode of goodness, with no place for passion or ignorance. He contributes religious progress for the devotees. -Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.15.15
    This in no way means we view Jesus as infallible or as our God or Bible as Highest Authority on par with our own Scriptures, because we do not.
    • "...how do you view Jesus and how is Jesus reconciled within Gaudiya Vaishnavism? I have seen few examples in real life and online where Gaudiya-s and related ISKCON adherents express that Jesus and the Bible are compatible with Gaudiya Dharma."

    Please forgive me as I'm not exactly familiar with what Gaudiya Dharma is. Gaudiya refers to location of Bengal and Bangla-desh. As such it relates to the location where this particular school of Vaishnavism arose historically. It isn't a special "Dharma." There is only Sanathana Dharma.

    Why is figure such as Jesus "incompatible?" Is it not true that in core essence every religious teaching on the planet has some relation to highest Reality? This doesn't mean all religions are right when they conflict ideologically, or denying the duality of opposed concepts which may be Right/Wrong. It means, all religious logic and intention of human beings is aspiring to contact something greater than itself, to reach it's own origin.

    Do you really believe the Creator of all beings is absent to the non-Sanathana Dharma world? Everything taught within Sanathana Dharma is how the Lord is pervading His Creation, within our hearts, antharajami. Is that only Brahmins hearts? Only Bharatiya's hearts? Even, only human beings hearts? No, we don't believe that. We believe within the core of every living thing, the God pervades.

    • Is Jesus an Avatara of Lord Krishna? ...
    • Many syncretists will stress that both Jesus and Krishna are Avatara-s of [a] God, but as per your assessment of the honorable Gaudiya-related and Vaishnava-related scriptures, Lord Krishna cannot be an Avatara of God, since He is Swayam Bhagwan Himself.

    Srila Prabhupada has said that Jesus is a Shaktyavesa avatar. It means he is an empowered representative, a great teacher, to bring mankind back to thinking of God. He remains Jiva tattva and not Bhagavan tattva. He is sent by God, son of God. He is not God, not Krsna. He is an authorized representative for certain part of the world, according to time and circumstances so they may return to thought of Godhead according to their ability to understand.

    Christian religion has called on Jesus Christ, and the bija of Christ is Krsna. This means, whenever people from Christian religion have called on Jesus Christ as their God, whatever errors in their understanding... out of the mercy of Lord Krsna Bhagavan... they have unintentionally called on the Supreme Lord, Krsna. As a result of such auspicious fortune, it may be after some lifetimes that these jivas will take birth in Krsna conscious households.
    ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktā
    yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ
    te 'pi mām eva kaunteya
    yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam

    Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kuntī, but they do so in a wrong way.
    -Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 9.23
    • "Is it theologically valid to even correlate the two as per the Gaudiya perspective? Is it traditional to do so? How does Gaudiya Dharma and the Gaudiya perspective see or evaluate this syncretism?"
    There is no such concept as "Gaudiya Dharma" neither is there any syncretic fusion between Christian teachings and Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

    • "Therefore, how do traditional Gaudiya-s such as yourself address the statement (What statement?) that Jesus and Krishna are similar?..."
    "The Lord then pointed out that there is no limit to the saktyavesa-avataras and that they cannot be counted. However, some can be mentioned as examples. The saktyavesa incarnations are of two kinds--direct and indirect. When the Lord Himself comes, He is called saksat, or a direct saktyavesa-avatara, and when He empowers some living entity to represent Him that living entity is called an indirect or avesa incarnation."-Teachings of Lord Caitanya,Chapter 8: The Avataras
    It simply means Srila Prabhupada is recognizing that the Jesus of Christians is a form of empowered representative of the Supreme Lord Krsna, sent into this world to remind people to think of God and to pray. It doesn't mean that all the historical baggage of what became Christian religion, or even the particular teachings of Jesus are equal or authoritative for us in any way.

    But we recognize people are at different spiritual levels, and that the Supreme Lord is ever trying to awake people's consciousness. For that reason all religions have parallels and similarities. There is a Supreme Truth, but it gets filtered through our very ignorant human misunderstanding, our disturbed thoughts, our broken cultures, our corrupted languages, and our karmic reactivity. Just as ordinary jivatma such as myself, cannot comprehend Shruti, but can only grasp the echo of what great Sages and Guru-Acharyas have left in a form comprehensible to me by their great mercy.

    In many ways, the teachings of the original Lord Krsna of Dwarka have filtered down throughout the world, and many parallel fragments of that memory became syncretized within the Christian religion. So as Lord Krsna washed the feet of Sudama, Jesus washed his disciples feet. As Lord Krsna is anthajami, so did Jesus teach the Kingdom of God is within you. Or as Bible states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." So do we believe the form of God (sargun swaroop) as Sound/Shabda Brahma, is OMkar, power of creation of the world, the beginning. Many parallels, too many to dismiss. BUT... many corruptions and distortions as well. We have the original, so we can bless those who share a similar belief syncretized anciently with what has come to us Apaurusheya from Sound Current Vibration and share with them greater knowledge of true reality as taught to us by our respected Gurus.

    -please forgive my mistakes.
    uttama hañā vaiṣṇava habe nirabhimāna
    jīve sammāna dibe jāni' 'kṛṣṇa'-adhiṣṭhāna

    "Although a Vaiṣṇava is a most exalted person, he is prideless and gives
    all respect to everyone, knowing everyone to be the resting place of Kṛṣṇa."
    -Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 20.25

  8. #18

    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste, DD:

    That's very interesting. Thank you for your post. There are vast theological differences amongst various Vaishnava groups that I am starting to now become more aware of. And, that was a question that I always wanted to ask. Thanks for the answer. It clarifies a lot to me on how the concept of Godhead is described or viewed in Gaudiya Vaishnava Dharma. DD, have you ever partaken in Garba/Dandiya-Raas? I am very sure you would enjoy it a lot. Many that partake in Garba feel closer to Krishna-ji when they dance.

    Krishna-ji doing Garba:

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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste Devi Dasi,
    It simply means is recognizing that the Jesus of Christians is a form of empowered representative of the Supreme Lord Krsna, sent into this world to remind people to think of God and to pray. It doesn't mean that all the historical baggage of what became Christian religion, or even the particular teachings of Jesus are equal or authoritative for us in any way.
    It is indigestible to learn that a person of Srila Prabhupada's stature has said this. There is another person who runs Peace TV too has made nice revelations linking or using Veda to his own religious aspirations. I am not comparing both the personalities by any means. But would like to ask ISKCON ite, does this sort teaching / findings / statements give opportunities to dissect SD and inject any self serving ideologies in to the same?

    And when I link this information to the original intent of this thread, interested to understand whether the Abrahamic deity discussed in this thread is a Para Devata (Paramatma) or a Anya Devata (Demi God)?

    PS : If the real meaning of Para Devata and Anya Devata are different then kindly substitute them with Paramatma and Demi God
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste

    Attention!

    I would like to ask our respected members to continue the discussion about Jesus in another thread: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=396

    Thanks

    regards

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