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Thread: Who Can Learn the Veda's

  1. #71
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Discriminating people on caste by birth, place of birth, skin color, religion by birth, social /financial status, lineage, sex is actually a crime against humanity. If there is a "God" who accepts this discrimination, he is certainly not my God.
    The crime of discrimination is rampant, actually more in the areas of worldly life today, than in religious. If this principle is followed and imposed as a law in letter and spirit, then the car driver, the watchman standing at the gate and the maid doing the cleansing and washing chores in the house of a wealthy or powerful person--any person who employs such people for that matter--should be able to partake the festivities of the house and even dine at the same table with the family.

    Let us not forget that in today's mercenary society driven by money without morals, the rich, the powerful, the politician, actor, sportsperson, doctor, industrialist--practically everyone who is someone--derives his/her profession and status more by family inheritance and legacy than by actual efforts. So why blame the minority brahmins who are in an unenviable position for being born into their caste, especially when a minuscule percentage rigorously stick to their dharma of nourishing the Vedas?
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  2. #72
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    I concur fully with you that discrimination based birth, social /financial status, lineage, sex is crime. Yet, I feel that there is another aspect that needs to be clarified for the sake of a ongrudge/discrimination and bias free existence. Lord Krishna, in addition to stating that the four varna division is based on Guna & Karma also says that He ensures good birth for certain souls. He certainly speaks of repeated birth and the role of Karma over several lives that controls birth.

    Much discontent in individuals (and in society) can be mitigated, if it is understood that if one is born in a certain ambience with certain qualities (bad or good), it is by one's karma. Without knowing or with half understanding of Karma and its role in one's destiny/environment, one will only crib about 'others'.
    Namaste Atanu,

    Yes, the birth in a certain family, ambience is an important ingredient it is decided by one's karma. However, this family/ ambience is not exactly decided by "Caste" as I see it. Lord Krishna says, " shuchInam shrImtAm gehe yogbhrashtobhijAyte ... athwA yoginAmeva kule bhavati dhImtAm". If we see these two sentences, there is no mention of caste here.

    Regarding 'cribbing' ... dear Atanu, alas, I would be happy if today people would crib for being born a brahmin. The reality is, even the brahmins today crib for not being born as SC/ST ! These people are today facing the worst kind of discrimination just on the basis of caste. What is the use of this 'caste' which discriminate you in every walk of life !

    Regards.

    Namaste Saidevoji,

    So why blame the minority brahmins who are in an unenviable position for being born into their caste, especially when a minuscule percentage rigorously stick to their dharma of nourishing the Vedas?
    As I mentioned above, there is a need to undo what is being done in the name of caste in this country. I have seen many brahmin families living much below the poverty line devoid of even basic necessities of life, but they don't get any facility, any reservation anywhere. They are discriminated at the time of admission, job & even in promotion in India. This caste system is a curse not against the SCs & STs, it is against the so-called upper castes headed by the Brahmins.

    Saying that something can be done only by the Brahmins & not by others is not helping them or the society. It is used as a weapons against them, it is used to fuel passion to bring in more chasm between different castes ... to create vote banks on the basis of caste-discrimination.

    There is discrimination in society, in politics, as you say ... I wholeheartedly agree with you. But those are the people, the spiritualists must fight against to end the mindless discrimination. Finally, this society must be saved by someone holding the flag of Sanatan Dharma. Till we leave our fates in the hands of the politicians, nothing is going to change. When the so called Gods of the "dalits" cry hoarse over the so-called, "Brahminvaad" & bay for the blood of the brahmins .... what did the knowers of the scriptures do ? Did they do anything to remove the misconceptions about caste & the varna as per Hindu scriptures ? Any support to any system which discriminates on caste by birth only helps the politicians to keep us divided. This is crime.

    Regards,

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #73
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Atanu,

    Yes, the birth in a certain family, ambience is an important ingredient it is decided by one's karma. However, this family/ ambience is not exactly decided by "Caste" as I see it. Lord Krishna says, " shuchInam shrImtAm gehe yogbhrashtobhijAyte ... athwA yoginAmeva kule bhavati dhImtAm". If we see these two sentences, there is no mention of caste here.


    Regarding 'cribbing' ... dear Atanu, alas, I would be happy if today people would crib for being born a brahmin. The reality is, even the brahmins today crib for not being born as SC/ST ! These people are today facing the worst kind of discrimination just on the basis of caste. What is the use of this 'caste' which discriminate you in every walk of life !

    Regards.

    OM
    Namaste Devotee,

    Actually 'kula' does mean tribe, caste, group, etc. jati and kula are synonymous. I have no reason to doubt the veracity and wisdom of sages such as Paramacharya and Ramana -- who were not only non-exploitative but were also the purest advaitins.

    I agree fully that the many discriminative connotations attached to jati must be eradicated. Shudra, who are the feet of the Lord, cannot be untouchable and so forth. Also, it is my opinion that a brahmin by birth who cribs at the way of the world is not a brahmin spiritually.

    Regards
    Last edited by atanu; 27 February 2009 at 04:25 AM. Reason: Unrelated matter removed
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  4. #74
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Actually 'kula' does mean tribe, caste, group, etc. jati and kula are synonymous. I have no reason to doubt the veracity and wisdom of sages such as Paramacharya and Ramana -- who were not only non-exploitative but were also the purest advaitins.
    Namaste Atanu,

    May be you are right & I am wrong, but that is the way I see it. But can you tell me, was Maharishi Parashar a Brahmin ? Was Lord Krishna a Brahmin ? Was Maharishi Balmiki a Brahmin ? Was Swami Vivekananda a Brahmin ? Was Maharishi Ved-Vyas a Brahmin ? Was Mahatma Vidur a Brahmin ? Can anyone tell me even one name among those named above who didn't qualify to learn the Vedas ?

    Also, it is my opinion that a brahmin by birth who cribs at the way of the world is not a brahmin spiritually.
    Yes, but isn't it true irrespective of one's birth in any caste ? Actually, that is what I want to emphasize here. The goal of every man, born in any caste, any religion, any country, any race is to become a brahmin spiritually. Anyone can become a brahmin by his guna & karma & no one becomes a brahmin just by being born in a particular caste/family.

    It is ok, if you don't agree. I respect your opinion.

    Regards,

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #75
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Namaste Satay,
    There is something wrong here. The posts are appearing twice/thrice, even though posted only once !

    There is some bug in the programme.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #76
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Atanu,
    May be you are right & I am wrong, but that is the way I see it. But can you tell me, was Maharishi Parashar a Brahmin ? Was Lord Krishna a Brahmin ? Was Maharishi Balmiki a Brahmin ? Was Swami Vivekananda a Brahmin ? Was Maharishi Ved-Vyas a Brahmin ? Was Mahatma Vidur a Brahmin ? Can anyone tell me even one name among those named above who didn't qualify to learn the Vedas ?
    Namaste Devotee,

    I do not have any difference of opinion there. Earlier also I had stressed the same.

    I just pointed out that kula and jati both mean caste and there is no derogatory meaning associated with any of the four divisions, except in human mind. And one's kula is indeed karma controlled (as Shri Krishna says). You may agree that if I were born in a particular kula, I would be better disposed to follow in the footsteps of that kula. Shri Krishna does teach about following the svadharma to excellence.

    But that does not debar one to strive and excel in any other field where one's genuine interest lies.

    The goal of every man, born in any caste, any religion, any country, any race is to become a brahmin spiritually. Anyone can become a brahmin by his guna & karma & no one becomes a brahmin just by being born in a particular caste/family.
    All are purifying their minds continously, knowingly or unknowingly. And Rig Veda says that Soma flows and Soma purifies itself. So, this must be in the Master Plan.

    ----------------------
    I wish to emphasize that I do not disagree that karma decides varna. But on the other hand, we must also agree that karma decides kula also. Both these have been taught by Shri Krishna.

    Secondly, anyone can take up Veda, provided such a one finds any juice in Veda. A mercenary of money will not find any juice in Veda. So, prior karma surely primes a sadhaka to acquire the excellent taste and eagerness for the study of Veda/attainement of Self (which is Veda).

    Regards

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  7. #77
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    All are purifying their minds continously, knowingly or unknowingly. And Rig Veda says that Soma flows and Soma purifies itself. So, this must be in the Master Plan.
    I wish to emphasize that I do not disagree that karma decides varna. But on the other hand, we must also agree that karma decides kula also. Both these have been taught by Shri Krishna.

    Secondly, anyone can take up Veda, provided such a one finds any juice in Veda.
    Agreed, Atanu !

    Regards,

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  8. #78
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Satay,
    There is something wrong here. The posts are appearing twice/thrice, even though posted only once !

    There is some bug in the programme.

    OM
    Namaste Devotee,

    Are you using firefox browser? Due to some reason, with firefox this happens. Not with IE.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  9. #79
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Are you using firefox browser? Due to some reason, with firefox this happens. Not with IE.
    Namaste Atanu,

    You may be right. I normally use Firefox. However, now I don't see the double posts though currently I am using Firefox !

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    I thought to add this for the reader that is following this conversation along. How does 4 varṇa occur? One would think there are 3 guṇa-s why not 3 varṇa?

    Kṛṣṇa tells us in the Bhāgavad gītā that at the core of the 4 fold order or division of society (cātur-varṇyaṁ) it is based upon the 3 guṇa-s. That varṇa is the following: brahmaṇa-s, kṣatriya-s, vaiśya-s, and śudra-s.

    Yet you have to ask if there are 3 guṇa-s how do you get 4 varṇa? It is based on the 3 guṇa-s primary and secondary combinations. We needn't go to the tertiary or 3rd level because if the 1st and 2nd levels are not possible, the 3 level will not matter.

    1. Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
    2. Sattva as primary and tamas as secondary

    3. Rajas as primary and sattva as secondary
    4. Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary

    5. Tamas as primary and sattva as secondary
    6. Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary

    Note the 2nd and 5th combinations are not possible due to the drastic contrast of sattva and tamas. This leaves us with 4 possible varṇa that align this way:
    • brahmaṇa-s : Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
    • kṣatriya-s : Rajas as primary and sattva as seconday
    • vaiśya-s : Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary
    • śudra-s : Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary
    praṇām
    It is interesting mathematically you try to explain combination of 3 Gunas and 4 Varnas. What if I ask you how about tertiary categories? I have not figured out what would come out then.
    Gita ch 4 verse 13 does not clearly say that Gunas are gained by birth and I guess most people rightly think Varnas (Gunas) are not by birth. It would be better each 4 categories has all three Gunas, not just 2 as you mentioned. As an example I myself can attest to that. I have experienced all three Gunas at different times and I am glad I can analyze each situation and learn and grow from each event. I find Gunas are dynamic and are very good learning tools to better myself.
    But I am confused that the very Geeta also says in Ch 15verse 8: As the wind carries away odors from their seat even so Jivatma snatching these (Gunas? /Karmas) from the body which it casts off, migrates into the body which it acquires"
    Does this mean our first understanding is to be politically correct?

    Love...........VC

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