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Thread: What did Sankara mean?

  1. #1
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    Post What did Sankara mean?

    Namaste all.
    I don't know if this is right topic where to post.
    According to Swami Sivananda,Sri Shankaracarya,the famous advaita philosopher,told:
    "Brahmacharya or spotless chastity is the best of all penances; a celibate of such spotless chastity is not a human being, but a god indeed... To the celibate who conserves the semen with great efforts, what is there unattainable in this world ? By the power of the composure of the semen, one will become just like Myself."

    What did Sankara mean?
    Regards,
    Orlando.

  2. #2
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    Shankara was a sannyasi and thus [supposedly] celibate. Naturally he spoke about value of what he followed himself.

    However if i am not wrong, Shivananda in similar to ISCKON way diverted idea of brahmacharya, trying to impose it upon grihastha-sadhakas (correct me if this is not so).

    We can find similar glorifications of sexual act in Shastras and opinions of Masters. So, each one is to follow his own achara and ashrama.

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    Namaste,

    Shri Shankaracarya went directly from Brahmacarya to Sannyasa, and thus remained always celibate.

    Shankara went to Prayaga to meet Kumarilla Bhatta, who had been fighting against various non-vedic influences that had crept into the Dharma. In the course of this attempted reformation, Bhatta had offended his own Gurus, and he was preparing to undergo self-immolation in penance for this sin, so he told Shankara to go to Mahishmati (Omkara) on the Narmada and defeat Madan Mishra (one of Bhatta’s own students) in debate, and by so doing the vedic Dharma could be restored.

    The debate continued for 18 days, and finally Madan Mishra conceded defeat and offered himself as a disciple to Shankara. But then Mishra’s wife, Ubhaya Bharati, stepped forward and asked Shankara to debate her (since husband and wife are equal partners, and Kumarilla Bhatta would not be truly defeated until she could also be defeated.

    Shankara accepted, and they debated for another 18 days; until finally, Ubhaya Bharati questioned Shankara about the erotic arts and sciences, and Shankara fell silent, because he knew nothing about the subject of sex.

    Shankara requested one month to find the answers he needed, and went into a cave to meditate. The king of a nearby region had just died, and Shankara’s soul left his own body and immediately transferred into the body of Raja Amaraka, which (reanimated by Shankara) quickly learned all that there was to know about Kama, in the royal palace of Amaraka.

    Within the month, Shankara returned to Ubhaya Bharati, answered all of her questions, and won the debate. At which time Madan Mishra became Shankaracarya’s disciple, and he was named Sureshvaracarya (the founder of Shringeri-Math).

    Shri Shankaracarya was surely celibate.

    Svami Shivananda has NOT “diverted” the ideal of celibacy and “imposed” it on any householders. But if a Grihastha decides to be Yogin, while yet remaining attached to his wife, then I am sure that Shivananda would recommend that no semen should ever be lost in the process.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shri Sharabhanga
    But if a Grihastha decides to be Yogin, while yet remaining attached to his wife, then I am sure that Shivananda would recommend that no semen should ever be lost in the process
    Attachment to wife is to have attachment in all levels, and this advice verily goes against attachment of wife, unless one's wife agrees to such effort.

    As dharma goes, if wife invites, it is the duty of man to abide by it unless he is not capable of fulfilling due to other reasons.

    Grihastha turns yogin still attached to wife is still grihastha, all duties of grihastha follows. Grihastha is defined by presence of spouse and children and not being in lonely places (i.e living in villages, town, cities etc and not in forest)

    The problem I understand is that we are trying to fit in the word Yogin in Aashramadharma where as Yogin in independant of Aashramadhrama. Under given conditions, Grihastha is not right Aashrama for a Yogin but other three verily serves.

    This is my opinion

  5. #5
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    Namaste,

    The reply of Sarabhanga is very reasonable. (Yes, i personally consider Shankara to have been Kaula, in which i follow the teaching of my Masters. But as a scholar i understand that no actual proof for this is there, it is no more than an opinion.)
    I would rather assume that Shankara still had sexual experience, even if it was in another's body (what is the difference if consciousness and individuality is the same?). But again, this is my view only.

    I have read in one article by Shivananda some wrong things about Tantrism, in particular about 5M. However i was told by my Shrividya Guru that Shivananda had proper knowledge, but did not want to disclose it openly in books. May be; i trust my Guru in this.

    I do not see any problem in Sarabhanga's statement about Shivananda advicing husband not to loose virya. This is imporant for yoga indeed (not for Kaula-tantra though), and this doesn't imply husband cannot satisfy his wife and even himself. It is possible to have sexual act without ejaculation, which was well known in India. In yogic paths sex is allowed (for grihasthis) but ejaculation may be not. It is logical in terms of this particular system, hatha-yoga.

    If one follows Kaula-mata, rules are different. Even there in some types of sadhana it is suggested to abstain from ejaculation - while in other it is a must. All details are dependant upon sampradaya and ajna of one's Guru. In general case this issue is of no matter to Tantra, rules are put only to ritual use of sex.

    Of course, for a Kaula his wife/shakti is also a Guru, thus her opinion must be taken into consideration. This is right also in regard of every grihastha. While it is dharma of grihastha to make his wife happy in all ways, certainly it can be done without loss of physical semen if that is required by one's own specific achara (yogic path in this case).

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    And normally yes, path of yoga is not meant for grihasthis. For them path of Kula is much more suitable and it doesn't create such difficulties of "trying to be a sannyasi"

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    I do not see any problem in Sarabhanga's statement about Shivananda advicing husband not to loose virya. This is imporant for yoga indeed (not for Kaula-tantra though), and this doesn't imply husband cannot satisfy his wife and even himself. It is possible to have sexual act without ejaculation, which was well known in India. In yogic paths sex is allowed (for grihasthis) but ejaculation may be not. It is logical in terms of this particular system, hatha-yoga.
    Amrauli and vajrauli kriyas?
    I have heard negative things about them ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    If one follows Kaula-mata, rules are different. Even there in some types of sadhana it is suggested to abstain from ejaculation - while in other it is a must. All details are dependant upon sampradaya and ajna of one's Guru. In general case this issue is of no matter to Tantra, rules are put only to ritual use of sex.
    White Maithun? Can you name a well know Tantra which describes this differences?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    And normally yes, path of yoga is not meant for grihasthis. For them path of Kula is much more suitable and it doesn't create such difficulties of "trying to be a sannyasi"
    You do advertize the kaula path pretty well.
    Amritananda ji's site say physical 5M's is a very small section of the entire path. It is necessary only for sadhaks at vira stage only. And it is mentioned that, there are alternatives to direct physical activity in vira stage also.

    I always thought tantra was more yoga than anything else. Yes instead of a direct abstinence it challenges the very ingredients of sensual bondage at a certain stage - meeting the enemy head on, hence the name vira or brave. Celebates try to bypass it in someway and hence are not brave. But aim is not to derive pleasure - then we can very well do it in normal lives. This view I have now seen in quite a few places not to mention in anadamatha writings. Disscussion at Amritananda Ji's site

    I'm not an expert and I cannot challenge you (yet) on this theme, but the theme makes all the difference. Actual use of physical sex in the above theme is as much yogic as celebacy.

    But just to point out my feeling, in your posts the yogic aspect of tantra rarely comes up and focus is only on the sex aspect (that too stressed in a different way than the above site) which is only a small section of the path.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singhi Kaya
    Amrauli and vajrauli kriyas?
    I have heard negative things about them ...

    White Maithun? Can you name a well know Tantra which describes this differences?
    Namaste,

    As far as i know from my Gurus vajroli&amaroli do not deal with physical semen reversal. Regarding hatha-yoga literal type of these, i also assume may be damageful for health and in any case useless spiritually.
    But, this is tradition of my sampradayas. I have no knowledge of each and every.

    Almost all Tantras prescribe sex with ejaculation. What i mentioned is based on oral instruction and i do not want to enter into any further details. In general case, there is no insistance in Kaulachara on preventing ejaculation, since it is viewed as the offering to Devi (this idea is already present in Upanishads).

    And i know Shri Amritananda personally, so i know what i am speaking about.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    Namaste,

    As far as i know from my Gurus vajroli&amaroli do not deal with physical semen reversal. Regarding hatha-yoga literal type of these, i also assume may be damageful for health and in any case useless spiritually.
    But, this is tradition of my sampradayas. I have no knowledge of each and every.

    Almost all Tantras prescribe sex with ejaculation. What i mentioned is based on oral instruction and i do not want to enter into any further details. In general case, there is no insistance in Kaulachara on preventing ejaculation, since it is viewed as the offering to Devi (this idea is already present in Upanishads).

    And i know Shri Amritananda personally, so i know what i am speaking about.
    Does that mean my views are correct.

    Yogi cannot be a perfect Yogi as long as he is grihasta

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