View Poll Results: Isn't Bhagvad-Gita's discourse sans 110 interpolations unambiguous?

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Thread: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

  1. #21

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    हरिः ओम्


    Namaste BS Murthy,

    Quote Originally Posted by BS Murthy View Post
    Treatise of self-help and you would be surprised to see the great discourse in a fresh light

    This interpretation reads to me as if written with a strong "hue" or smell, as if the perspective of they who translated
    has a rather full agenda. It feels very linear in nature, and to my mind has missed the point of the most important
    elements.

    The nature of reality, not self help; siva is playing. By reducing such a work to this status the learned scholar reveals
    his nature to be that of one who lacks the ability to empathise. Seeing in the divine gift of intuition; as a super
    natural power; simply highlights ones own lack of emotional capacity, not that this is wrong in any way mind you.
    But this leaves the reader feeling that the work is rather dry.

    Lack of ojas, maybe; it is hard to define?

    Dry intellect will not suffice to understanding the finer points of non linear universal thought; its resultant
    sympathetic observation. Alas, the predator among us sees only straight ahead.

    Have you read about the quantum slit experiment?
    This really is rather important ...


    praṇāma

    mana


    ॐ नमः शिवाय
    Last edited by Mana; 03 February 2013 at 03:09 AM.

  2. #22

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Dear venerable members of the Forum:
    I was looking forward to a critical appraisal of my work but it is a huge disappointment to see that the round-robin discussion is stuck in concentric circles centered on the possibility or otherwise of interpolations in the Gita. I wish someone would bring the debate onto the intended track by critiquing my approach, which places 110 verses on the board as interpolations.
    Regards to all,
    BS Murthy

  3. #23

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    हरिः ओम्


    Dear BS Murthy,


    Well; it would appear that mine is not an argument at all as you have not responded other than ...

    I can only hope that the non circular nature of my honest responses, may imply; that they will become
    seeds of thought. Although I have great doubt that this is the case.


    If you find the time to respond to my posts, please do; this subject is very close to my heart.


    praṇāma

    mana


    ॐ नमः शिवाय

  4. #24
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    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    As an aside, when you lose a discussion elsewhere, ....... ......
    ??? !!! Childish thinking ! what losing ... and what winning ??

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #25

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    There is nothing personal about it Manaji as I addressed my plea to one and all. Well, it appears that I am not on the same page with most of the rest of this forum and that happens when one advocates new ideas that are contrary to the held-views.
    Regards,
    BS Murthy

  6. #26

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Quote Originally Posted by BS Murthy View Post
    Dear venerable members of the Forum:
    I was looking forward to a critical appraisal of my work but it is a huge disappointment to see that the round-robin discussion is stuck in concentric circles centered on the possibility or otherwise of interpolations in the Gita. I wish someone would bring the debate onto the intended track by critiquing my approach, which places 110 verses on the board as interpolations.
    Regards to all,
    BS Murthy
    Dear BS,

    The Gita is quite consistent form beginning to end. That you don't like certain verses is no fault of the Gita, but rather a reflection of your underlying bias. Yes, I suppose I could offer a point-by-point criticism, but I think we all know where that will lead. You will argue that the Gita sounds better to you without those verses, and I will correctly point out that you have missed the real sense of the Gita and arguing solely on the basis of your misconceptions.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  7. #27

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Quote Originally Posted by BS Murthy View Post
    Strangely it was Sir Edwin Arnold the Englishman who sought to separate the divine wheat from the mundane chaff by branding s23-s27 of ch8 as the ranting of some vedanti in his century old Song Celestial. While interpreting the Gita in English verse an attempt was made by the author to identify the interpolations in it and codify the same for the benefit of the modern reader. One way to scent the nature of these, if not zero in on every one of them, is to subject the text to the twin tests of sequential conformity and structural economy. Sequential conformity is all about uniformity of purpose sans digression and structural economy but represents the absence of repetitiveness.
    Pranams,

    Here is an example of what I mean about misconceptions guiding wrong understanding of the gItA. The OP is essentially saying (using the words "sequential conformity and structural economy...") that the gItA should follow a basically linear course in its gradual unrevealing of the subject matter, from point A to point B.

    Now here is the problem: The gItA is a discourse and a conversation between two real individuals, one acting as the guru and the other acting as a shishya. In a real discourse, one does not speak in the rigid, linear manner BS Murthy claims one should. Rather, while the guru is progressively unveiling the subject, he stops to take questions, answers them, anticipates logical doubts based on the listener's knowledge, and then deals with those doubts. The course is not linear, but more like a meandering river in which no stone is unturned so that the guru can fully remove the disciple's doubts.

    Case in point: Chapter 8. BS Murthy claims that verses 23-27 of this chapter are "mundane chaff" interpolated from the "ranting of some vedanti" as opposed to the previous verses which he considers "divine wheat." The theme of this chapter is the attainment of the Supreme Lord. The ephemeral nature of the world up to the planet of Lord Brahmaa is emphasized, in contrast to Sri Krishna's abode, from which one does not return, and its attainment by devotion as mentioned in verse 22. Then in verses 23-27, Sri Krishna discourses on the "light" and "dark" paths, one of which leads to brahman and the other leading back to samsaara. To the unqualified and uninformed, this seems like a change of subject. However, this not an unwarranted digression! Why? Because these shlokas allude to paths taught in the chAndogya upaniShad:

    V-x-1-2: Among them, those who know thus (this knowledge of the five fires) and those who are devoted to faith and austerity in the forest - they go to light; from light to the day, from the day to the bright fortnight, from the bright fortnight to those six months during which the sun travels northward; from the months to the year, from the year to the sun, from the sun to the moon and from the moon to the lightning. (From the region of Brahman) a person, who is other than human, (comes and) causes them, existing there, to attain Brahman. This is the path of the gods.

    V-x-3: But those who living in villages (as householders) practice sacrifices and works of public utility and gift, go to smoke, from smoke to night, from night to the dark fortnight, from the dark fortnight to those months during which the sun travels southward. From there they do not reach the year (like those going the path of the gods).
    As a dvija who had studied the vedas, Arjuna would have known about these two paths, and a logical doubt would have developed in his mind. After all, Sri Krishna just said in verse 22 that one attains His Supreme Abode by devotion:

    puruShaH sa paraH pArtha bhaktyA labhyas-tv-ananyayA |
    yasyAntaH sthAni bhUtAni yena sarvam idaM tatam || gItA 8.22 ||

    "But the Supreme Being in whom all beings abide and by whom all this [universe] is pervaded is to be attained by unswerving devotion, O Arjuna."
    ... and yet this seems to contradict the shruti which says that that those yogis who leave their body during the the six months of the northern course of the sun (CU 5.10.1) attain the Supreme Being. In other words, Arjuna may be thinking now that simply having devotion is not enough, and he must make sure to leave his body in the first 6 months of the year to attain Brahman, as per the shruti. To allay this doubt, Sri Krishna, after mentioning these two paths, says:

    naite sR^itI pArtha jAnan yogi muhyati kashchana |
    tasmAt sarveShu kAleShu yoga-yukto bhavArjuna || gItA 8.27 ||

    "No Yogi, O Paartha, who knows these two paths is ever deluded. Therefore, O Arjuna, at all times engage yourself in Yoga."

    vedeShu yaj~neShu tapaHsu chaiva dAneShu yat puNya-phalaM pradiShTam |
    atyeti tat sarvam idaM vidtvA yogI paraM sthAnam upaiti chAdyam || gIta 8.28 ||

    "Whatever meritorious results are declared to accrue from the study of the Vedas, from the performance of sacrifices, from the practice of austerities and charity, all this is transcended by the Yogi who knows this teaching of Mine, he reaches the Supreme, Primeval abode."
    In other words, Sri Krishna is bringing up this teaching of the shruti, and while confirming its legitimacy, is telling Arjuna that the true yogi is not bothered by this consideration - he goes by his own path, the bright path of the gods, and gets liberation. Hence, verses 23-27 are not interpolated - they are a very logical digression to resolve a doubt arising from seemingly contradictory statements from the shruti, which any good speaker would naturally anticipate, what to speak of the omniscient Supreme Lord!
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  8. #28

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Quote Originally Posted by BS Murthy View Post
    The pundits and the plebeians alike aver that the philosophy of the Gita is the practice of disinterested action. In this context it may be noted that while postulating nishkaama karma, the theory of disinterested action, Krishna was critical of the ritualistic aspects of and the mundane expectations from the Vedic ceremonies (s42 - 46 and s53 of ch.2.). Given that the pristine philosophy of the Gita is to tend man on the path of duty without attachment, the about turn in s9-s16 of Ch.3 that formulate the procedural aspects of the rituals and the divine backing they enjoy cannot stand to either reason or logic. Such contradictory averments attributed to Krishna wherever occur can be taken as interpolations and the same are delved into in this article.
    Here again is another misconception of the OP and his unqualified Englishman.

    In chapter 2, Sri Krishna does not criticize Vedic rituals. What He clearly does is criticize the mentality of those who perform the rituals for their temporary fruits, not understanding the deeper purpose behind them:

    yām imāṁ puṣpitāṁ vācaṁ pravadanty avipaścitaḥ |
    veda-vāda-ratāḥ pārtha nānyad astīti vādinaḥ || gItA 2.42 ||
    kāmātmānaḥ svarga-parā janma-karma-phala-pradām |
    kriyā-viśeṣa-bahulāṁ bhogaiśvarya-gatiṁ prati || gItA 2.43 ||

    "Flowery speech, O Paartha is uttered by the unwise who rejoice in the words of the Vedas, declaring "there is nothing superior to this! They are full of desires and have heaven (svarga) for their goal. They teach rebirth as the result of actions and engage in various specific rites for the attainment of pleasure and power."
    This is criticism of those who are attracted to the temporary fruits promised with the performance of specific yagnas. Later in the gItA Sri Krishna says that He is the one who is to be known by all the vedas:

    sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jānam apohanaṁ ca |
    vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedānta-kṛd veda-vid eva cāham ||gItA 15.15 ||
    Then, one may ask, why are rituals prescribed with the reward of various temporary fruits? The answer is that these are an inducement for those to perform these karmas, after which they gradually lose a taste for the attainment of temporary fruits and begin to hanker after a more permanent end to their materialistic suffering. This they attain by performing activities prescribed by the same Vedas, but with the fruits dedicated for the Lord's pleasure. The idea here is, the person who knows what the Vedas really stand for, knows what is to be done and what is not to be done. Hence:

    yāvān artha uda-pāne sarvataḥ samplutodake |
    tāvān sarveṣu vedeṣu brāhmaṇasya vijānataḥ || gItA 2.46 ||

    "For a brahmin who knows the Self, the Vedas are of as much use as a flooded water reservoir for a thirsty person."
    The idea is, the person looking for liberation and Atma-gyAna does not need everything in the Vedas. There are rituals in the Vedas for clearly materialistic purposes, like destruction of one's enemies, etc. Then there are others which have materialistic benefits but can also be performed with more transcendental goals in mind. The brAhmaNa takes what is needed, knowing the purpose of these different rituals. The criticism of the ritualists is specifically focused on those who get fixated on these temporary materialistic benefits, not understanding the higher purpose behind them.

    Now, it is in this context that Sri Krishna again brings up the subject of yajna. Is this contradictory? Not at all. The reason being, one cannot refrain from acting, not even for a minute. One has to therefore act according to the direction of the Vedas, and with the right mentality. Hence:

    yajārthāt karmaṇo ’nyatra loko ’yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ |
    tad-arthaṁ karma kaunteya mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara || gItA 3.9 ||

    "This world is bound by actions other than those performed as sacrifice. O Arjuna, you must perform work to this end [for sacrifice alone], free from attachment."
    Far from being contradictory, verses 3.9-3.16 are actually a logical development on the concept of nishkAma-karma-yoga. For it is not just any action which must be performed without attachment for the fruits, but rather prescribed action for yagna, which pleases the devas, in whom the paramAtmA dwells as the only true master and Lord of all sacrifice (see gItA 9.24). Thus, the fulfillment of nishkaama-karma is dedicating the fruits to the enjoyer of all sacrifice. Indeed, the only way to perform duties without attachment is to dedicate their fruits to the Lord. This is the cardinal teaching of the gItA:

    yat karoṣi yad aśnāsi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat |
    yat tapasyasi kaunteya tat kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam || gItA 9.27 ||

    "Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer or give away, and whatever austerities you perform – do that, O son of Kuntī, as an offering to Me."
    Why is it some so-called scholars cannot grasp this? They like the idea of "action without thought of reward" because it has a very Buddhist feeling to it, one that does not require a personal Deity or self-surrender. But the gItA is a fundamentally theistic scripture, and if one does not understand Sri Krishna's central place within it, then then one is doomed to misunderstand. This is what I alluded to earlier about pre-existing biases preventing one from understanding the simple, logical, and very evolved discourse.
    Last edited by philosoraptor; 06 February 2013 at 02:44 PM.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  9. #29
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    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Namaste

    There is something odd here, which may or may not have any relevance.

    I was looking at the emergence of Hinduism in other areas of the world such as Indonesia, Thailand, and so on, in relation to the Ramayana. Then I came upon some information of a Balinese version of the Gita which also opens with the same first verse as an very old Farrukhabad version, which it is said is a complete Gita in flow and ebb but only has about 80 verses.

    Hinduism arrived in Indonesia prior to 200AD, and it appears this Gita comes from about that time.

    One might say, that this copy abridged the Gita for some reason to make it easier to spread among Indonesians, as opposed to the current 700 verses. But something doesn't sound right about that. I know the variations in Ramayana are found in different parts of the world, that would argue for this Balinese version perhaps being 1/7th the size of the current version, but over all it is odd and I am curious to find a full copy of that Balinese Gita.

    Can anyone help me find it?

    It is also odd that it opens with the same verse as the Farrukhabad edition of the Gita, where the opening verse in these Gita's more than 20 verses later from the current version. There might be something there, if researched.

    Om Namah Sivaya

  10. #30

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    There are you tube videos which go through each verse here:
    http://www.gitaclass.org/Chapter_1.html

    This may help.

    Being in tune with Lord Krishnas message, a person can clearly see that Hinduism is in line with Humanity, teaches to practice humanity.
    The doubters will try to twist things round to disprove, but they will fail, as ultimatley scriptures show the divine light.
    Karma Yoga is what if not selfless service moving to wards the unself from the self, working together,......

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