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Thread: God in Hindu Dharma

  1. #41
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Quote Originally Posted by defectsofhinduism View Post
    God in Hindu Dharma is a Perfect God. Isn't it?

    Now God has designed the law of Karma. It means, in each incarnation, humans suffer the consequences of the Karma of past incarnations. I mean, in birth 6, the Karma of birth 5 is in action, in birth 5, the karma of 4, in 4, that of 3, and so on... It keeps stretching back till the point when God started creation. So where is the free will? A "sadhu" is as much a sinner as a "rakshasa" is innocent. Because both are bound in the Law of Karma all the way back in the past as well as forth in the future.

    How does Hinduism define it?

    ALSO: How does Hinduism define Deja Vu?
    namaskAram,

    To assume that karmaphalam-s are accumulated only when the manifestation of mAyA (through sRiShTi, sthiti, and laya) takes place is akin to taking the view that the AtmA itself (rather than bhagavAn) is the pradhAna, a view which I don't accept. With regards to your comment about the rAkShasa and the sAdhu, I don't see your point. Trying to measure the kRipA of bhagavAn is little more than ahaMkAr. For example, rAvaNa was a rAkShasa and never repented for his actions, yet upon being killed by rAma, he was granted mokSha/jIvanmukti. Perhaps you wouldn't forgive someone like rAvaNa, but you cant expect bhagavAn to be as petty as a human, right? You are applying human imperfections to bhagavAn, but that doesn't make sense. Just as the sun is reflected by the water, but itself isn't affected by the imperfections of the water, similarly is the case with jIva-s and brahma. That is what is meant when yAj~navalkya says "tathAtmA eko hyanekash cha jalAdhAreShviva amshumAn." That verse also has other implications. If there was no dhUp from "amshumAn" (sUrya) then the sun is no longer reflected, right? Looking at it that way, mAyA could be viewed as that which blocks the "sunlight" of brahma (interestingly, that is the way that bhAskara [an early bhedAbheda commentator on the brahmasUtras] interprets "hiraNma\'yena pA\'treNa satya\'syA\'pihitaM mu\'kham").

    P.S.: By trolling here, you're kind of concomitantly making other Pakistanis like me look bad, so please don't...shukriya
    Last edited by Jaskaran Singh; 27 February 2014 at 02:28 AM.
    படைபோர் புக்கு முழங்கும்அப் பாஞ்சசன்னியமும் பல்லாண்டே
    May your pA~nchajanya shankha which reverberates on the battlefield, last thousands upon thousands of years...
    http://archives.mirroroftomorrow.org...anchajanya.jpg

  2. #42
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by defectsofhinduism View Post
    humans suffer the consequences of the Karma of past incarnations.
    Humans experience the results of past actions... suffering is optional.


    iti śiva
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #43
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Namaste "defects",

    A Muslim which resides in Pakistan should focus on mess created by combination of his faith and country than finding defects in other religions. Pakistan and its clergy are the fountainhead of terrorism in this world. Pakistan is hotbed for breeding mindless killers and spreading the hatred throughout the world.

    ... and you want to find faults with Hinduism ! You didn't come here for friendship or learning about Hindu Dharma but to show us the "defects" ! That is the saddest story of this world. Because of such mindset this place called Pakistan has become a safe haven for human-demons who are out to destroy the peace on this earth in the name of Islam. These are the bad effects of mindless talks by Zakir who excels in spreading such tendencies.

    ****************

    Now God has designed the law of Karma. It means, in each incarnation, humans suffer the consequences of the Karma of past incarnations. I mean, in birth 6, the Karma of birth 5 is in action, in birth 5, the karma of 4, in 4, that of 3, and so on... It keeps stretching back till the point when God started creation. So where is the free will? A "sadhu" is as much a sinner as a "rakshasa" is innocent. Because both are bound in the Law of Karma all the way back in the past as well as forth in the future.

    How does Hinduism define it?
    1. First of all, there was never a time when first creation took place. MAyA is beginningless and so is the creation.

    2. God is not a separate being from this world who took upon himself to create something outside Himself. The creator and creation are not different ... though apparently they look so.

    3. After destruction, this universe is created again and again as it was created "before".

    4. Hindus have no compulsion to believe that humans were created since beginning of the universe. Hindu Dharma has no conflict with Darwin's theory and Theory of Evolution is acceptable.

    5. For argument-sake even if we agree to think in the way an Abrahimic follower thinks of creation, there is no defect in the laws of Karma. Karma and free-will go together. This free-will comes through Ahamkaar. The man is not an automaton. Our 65 % of life is decided by our previous Karma and gunas acquired in previous life and balance 35 % is decided by our present Karma and gunas. Karma doesn't mean only past Karma as the "defects" has assumed. Even if assumed that there was a time when there was no accumulated karma for a being, the gunas with which it is born and freewill available to it can take it to any direction.

    ALSO: How does Hinduism define Deja Vu?
    Hinduism define "Deja Vu" as "Deja Vu". Any problem in finding this word and its meaning in dictionary ? If yes, please let me know, I would give a link.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  4. #44
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Namaste "defects",

    As I have answered your questions, will you answer my questions on Islam ?

    a) First of all, the Islam is based on your prophet Mohammad and his book i.e. Q'uran. Mohammad claimed that he was prophet. However, the way he went on killing innocent people in his time .... killing the innocent people at night betraying the trust of the people of Madina, destroying the worship place in Mecca after a brutal war and burning sacred idols of the Pagans who worshipped them and thus hurting the sentiments of such simple people, making sexual relationship with his own maidservant and later justifying that act through a revealed verse in Q'uran etc. make any person outside Islam to look at Mohammad with lots of suspicion. What if Mohammad was not a prophet but a highly clever fraud ?

    Why should God want to send a prophet to spread hatred and mindless killing of hapless people which Mohammad started for spreading his own faith ? The problem is that Islam was born with mindless bloodshed of people in the desert, it split into Shiyas and Sunnis with another blood curdling war which is continuing even today and now it has turned into a machinery working full-time to create terrorists day in and day out.

    The problem is that you can't question the prophet or Q'uran otherwise you would be put to death. Why ? Why should a free debate on this issue is not allowed in Islam ? Why do you want to kill everyone who questions your faith ? Why don't you reason with them instead of silencing them with death threat ?

    Any Truth which is based on unverifiable faith is unacceptable. Truth must be questioned and answered and debated and must be verifiable with experience. Hindu Dhrama tells you to question, debate and experience the Truth. Advaita VedAnta tells you to experience the Truth as it is. Please check that the Sufis which today's Islamist are out to kill actually experienced the Truth.

    b) Creation outside God is an impossibility. If God alone was there in the beginning and there was nothing created that would mean that there was not even space in the beginning. Now, for creating anything God would need two things which are a huge space "outside" Himself and some material for starting creation. As there was nothing except God in the beginning, any material and space must come from God itself. If God created everything by taking material from Himself, then he would turn into a not-God or imperfect God which changed after creation as only part of God would remain as some part of Him was used in creation.

    Therefore, logically speaking, creation outside God is an impossibility.

    c) Why does God need constant praise ? Is he a megalomaniac ? If he was so particular about constant praise of Himself, why didn't he create our minds in that way ? Why should I believe which my mind doesn't accept ? Is it a sin not to accept thing which doesn't appear logical ? Why should I burn for eternity in hell for not accepting Mohammad and Q'uran which do not resonate with my way of thinking ? Is it Justice ? Does his this act show that He is merciful ? Why should he must have such a thin skin that my simple criticism and my doubts anger Him disproportionately ? All His acts as accepted and taught in Islam make God look a tyrant and merciless.

    I have many other questions. Just like as you are finding defects of Hinduism, I will tell you some defects of Islam. I hope you won't mind it.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #45
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Quote Originally Posted by defectsofhinduism View Post
    God in Hindu Dharma is a Perfect God. Isn't it?
    Absolutely. No greater ontological being can be conceived.

    Now God has designed the law of Karma. It means, in each incarnation, humans suffer the consequences of the Karma of past incarnations.
    Yes.

    I mean, in birth 6, the Karma of birth 5 is in action, in birth 5, the karma of 4, in 4, that of 3, and so on... It keeps stretching back till the point when God started creation.
    Minor quibble. There is no absolute first beginning in Hinduism. A better analogy would be it keeps stretching back and back indefinitely. The universe/Karma/selves never "began to exist". They were all coeval and coeternal with God.

    So where is the free will? A "sadhu" is as much a sinner as a "rakshasa" is innocent. Because both are bound in the Law of Karma all the way back in the past as well as forth in the future.
    The usage of the word "so" seems to indicate that the argument somehow follows from your previous premises. At this stage, unless the validity of the preceding arguments have been established, this is a non-sequitur.

    Nonetheless, free will exists in so far as a chain smoker has the choice now of deciding to continue smoking or not. His current position, with the onset of cancer, say has been caused by his past smoking habit. His future is squarely in his hands now.

    ALSO: How does Hinduism define Deja Vu?
    Hinduism does not define a French word.

  6. #46
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    These are the bad effects of mindless talks by Zakir who excels in spreading such tendencies.
    Aww...but Joker Nalayak provides such great comedy, :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk5q9TeGo14
    படைபோர் புக்கு முழங்கும்அப் பாஞ்சசன்னியமும் பல்லாண்டே
    May your pA~nchajanya shankha which reverberates on the battlefield, last thousands upon thousands of years...
    http://archives.mirroroftomorrow.org...anchajanya.jpg

  7. #47
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste "defects",

    As I have answered your questions, will you answer my questions on Islam ?

    a) First of all, the Islam is based on your prophet Mohammad and his book i.e. Q'uran. Mohammad claimed that he was prophet. However, the way he went on killing innocent people in his time .... killing the innocent people at night betraying the trust of the people of Madina, destroying the worship place in Mecca after a brutal war and burning sacred idols of the Pagans who worshipped them and thus hurting the sentiments of such simple people, making sexual relationship with his own maidservant and later justifying that act through a revealed verse in Q'uran etc. make any person outside Islam to look at Mohammad with lots of suspicion. What if Mohammad was not a prophet but a highly clever fraud ?

    Why should God want to send a prophet to spread hatred and mindless killing of hapless people which Mohammad started for spreading his own faith ? The problem is that Islam was born with mindless bloodshed of people in the desert, it split into Shiyas and Sunnis with another blood curdling war which is continuing even today and now it has turned into a machinery working full-time to create terrorists day in and day out.

    The problem is that you can't question the prophet or Q'uran otherwise you would be put to death. Why ? Why should a free debate on this issue is not allowed in Islam ? Why do you want to kill everyone who questions your faith ? Why don't you reason with them instead of silencing them with death threat ?

    Any Truth which is based on unverifiable faith is unacceptable. Truth must be questioned and answered and debated and must be verifiable with experience. Hindu Dhrama tells you to question, debate and experience the Truth. Advaita VedAnta tells you to experience the Truth as it is. Please check that the Sufis which today's Islamist are out to kill actually experienced the Truth.

    b) Creation outside God is an impossibility. If God alone was there in the beginning and there was nothing created that would mean that there was not even space in the beginning. Now, for creating anything God would need two things which are a huge space "outside" Himself and some material for starting creation. As there was nothing except God in the beginning, any material and space must come from God itself. If God created everything by taking material from Himself, then he would turn into a not-God or imperfect God which changed after creation as only part of God would remain as some part of Him was used in creation.

    Therefore, logically speaking, creation outside God is an impossibility.

    c) Why does God need constant praise ? Is he a megalomaniac ? If he was so particular about constant praise of Himself, why didn't he create our minds in that way ? Why should I believe which my mind doesn't accept ? Is it a sin not to accept thing which doesn't appear logical ? Why should I burn for eternity in hell for not accepting Mohammad and Q'uran which do not resonate with my way of thinking ? Is it Justice ? Does his this act show that He is merciful ? Why should he must have such a thin skin that my simple criticism and my doubts anger Him disproportionately ? All His acts as accepted and taught in Islam make God look a tyrant and merciless.

    I have many other questions. Just like as you are finding defects of Hinduism, I will tell you some defects of Islam. I hope you won't mind it.

    OM
    Hi devotee. Long time no see. These are good questions for Islam, for a start.

    But I doubt you will get any meaningful answer. Mohammed was the best of Allah's creations. Whatever Mohammed does Pakis have to do. If Mo killed apostates (which he did), or married 6 year olds (which he did), or married his own daughter in law (which he did), or commanded Ali to chop off people's heads with a machete instead of burning (which he did), or ordered the killing of the Jews of Banu Quraiza (which he did) or married more women than the 4 he prescribed for the rest of the Muslims (which he did), all of this is fine within the Muslim mind, you see. Why? Because Mohammed is Allah's favourite. So, he gets special privilege. The choice of a messenger in Islam is also random (or it is Allah's will - which is pretty much arbitrary) since there is no provision for Karma/Reincarnation. This despite the fact that Mohammed himself is supposed to have said that he would like to be reborn again and again and die for Allah's cause (now, why would Allah have a cause that he would require men to die for? Puzzling, very puzzling.) Mohammed will occupy the highest of heavens by the side of Allah in Jannat.

    If Muslims disagree, their Allah will roast them in hellfire for eternity. What chance do poor Muslims have of reasoning given such strict scripture?

  8. #48
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Whatever Mohammed does Pakis have to do.
    Comments like that are what promotes extremism...
    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    or commanded Ali to chop off people's heads with a machete instead of burning (which he did)
    Technically false, since you're referencing a hadith by Ibn Abbas where he says (ibnʿabasin faqaala lau) that if he (Ibn Abbas) was there rather than Ali, he would kill the atheists not by fire but by murder, in accordance with what the pedo-nabi (s*i* be upon him) said [man badalu diinahu faaqtuulahu/whosoever changes his religion, kill him]. However, this event occurred after he (Muhammad) died:
    حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو النُّعْمَانِ، مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْفَضْلِ حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ عِكْرِمَةَ، قَالَ أُتِيَ عَلِيٌّ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ بِزَنَادِقَةٍ فَأَحْرَقَهُمْ فَبَلَغَ ذَلِكَ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ فَقَالَ لَوْ كُنْتُ أَنَا لَمْ أُحْرِقْهُمْ لِنَهْىِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَلَقَتَلْتُهُمْ لِقَوْلِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ مَنْ بَدَّلَ دِينَهُ فَاقْتُلُوهُ ‏"‏‏.‏
    படைபோர் புக்கு முழங்கும்அப் பாஞ்சசன்னியமும் பல்லாண்டே
    May your pA~nchajanya shankha which reverberates on the battlefield, last thousands upon thousands of years...
    http://archives.mirroroftomorrow.org...anchajanya.jpg

  9. #49
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Hi Wundermonk ! What you say is right. Two things can stop a rational man from thinking rationally : Excessive Reward (to the point of absurdity) and Excessive fear of exemplary punishment to the point of absurdity. That is :

    1. If you conform to my sayings, I would give you 72 virgins (with so and so specification) alongwith your current wives to keep enjoying sex (somehow Mohammad Saheb could not think of anything more satisfying than sex), life for eternity, a place in heaven where there is river of wine and all luxuries of life.

    This is a reward to the point of absurdity that has been used in Islam.

    2. If you don't obey my commands, I will burn you in hell for eternity.

    That is again a fear of punishment pushed to absurdity which has been used in Islam.

    3) If anyone questions the above, kill Him/her in the most brutal manner. .

    This exemplary threat stops you immediately from questioning the authority or starting a debate in Islam.

    *******

    Hi Jaskaran Singh ! I laughed out heartily by reading this : "Joker Nalayak" !

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #50
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by defectsofhinduism View Post
    God in Hindu Dharma is a Perfect God. Isn't it?

    Now God has designed the law of Karma. It means, in each incarnation, humans suffer the consequences of the Karma of past incarnations. I mean, in birth 6, the Karma of birth 5 is in action, in birth 5, the karma of 4, in 4, that of 3, and so on... It keeps stretching back till the point when God started creation. So where is the free will? A "sadhu" is as much a sinner as a "rakshasa" is innocent. Because both are bound in the Law of Karma all the way back in the past as well as forth in the future.

    How does Hinduism define it?
    This is not true. About this subject we have already discussed in "Start of the 'Atma'/Soul" thread (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...t=11407&page=7) starting from post #61 and forward.

    There is no such thing as beginningless suffering (or bondage) of karma, and also suffering of karma does not have to continue forever in the future. Namely karma can be entirely eliminated and destroyed, and the living entity attains the state called liberation (mukti).

    regards
    Last edited by brahma jijnasa; 28 February 2014 at 12:30 PM. Reason: added (or bondage)

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