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Thread: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

  1. #211
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Darji View Post
    A HA! I knew there were some deep rooted issues! The froth boils from the pot at last. I understand that a some westerners (especially Americans) are misguided and have the attention span of a flies wing beat, but this does not mean all of us are. I am here for a real purpose that I feel in my heart, not some whim that I had after eating breakfast. I love and respect your culture, and while I do not expect you to jump for joy a little respect to me would be nice. It takes a brave person to reach into the unknown.
    My experiences with christians and others who claimed to be interested in Hinduism merely proved what I was warned about; that many of these people are deceiving and out to convert you and are not really interested in Dharma.

    However, I agree that if you are truly genuine in your interest in Hinduism, do all the research you can. Travel to India and find out for yourself instead of going by what others say. As I said before, I cannot divine your intentions but I sure as hell hope they are pure and not to plant discord in Indian/Hindu society like the "missionary" scum.

    Regarding importance of birth and caste, you, and other westerners, need to read what Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswati of Sankara Math has written. He was an official guru in the lineage of Adi Sankaracharya and is a Vipra Brahmana.

    Here is his explanation of the oh-so-sensitive topic:

    http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap2.htm

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    Regarding importance of birth and caste, you, and other westerners, need to read what Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswati of Sankara Math has written. He was an official guru in the lineage of Adi Sankaracharya and is a Vipra Brahmana.

    Here is his explanation of the oh-so-sensitive topic:

    http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap2.htm
    With all due respect to Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswati, he can't be considered greater than Lord Himself and I don't find him speaking the truth in his follwing assertion in the book. It appears as if he is fully unaware of the realities of life.

    It is jatidharma that goes to make the inner guna (inner quality or nature) of an individual. So Sri Krsna's dictum in the Gita that the caturvana division is in accord with the gunas and the idea that the caste is based on birth are one and the same. There is no conflict between the two. You cannot find fault with Sri Krsna for his practice being at variance with his precept.
    Parasurama and Dronacarya were Brahmins but they were Ksatriyas by nature. On the other hand, Visvamitra, a valorous Ksatriya king known for his violent and passionate temperament, became a Brahmin rsi. Cases like this are extremely rare, and are exceptions to the rule of jati dharma. On the whole we see that the Lord functions on the basis that, whatever be the outward qualities of individuals, their inner
    quality is in keeping with their hereditary vocations.


    His above argument is not based on reality.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #213
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    With all due respect to Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswati, he can't be considered greater than Lord Himself and I don't find him speaking the truth in his follwing assertion in the book. It appears as if he is fully unaware of the realities of life.
    Devotee,

    I would have never thought you would say such a thing!

    Are you aware of the realities more than he was? Among us, all of whom are unrealized, Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswati has far more knowledge than all of us combined.

    To discredit him is to discredit Adi Sankara's works.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam Devotee ji

    Parasurama and Dronacarya were Brahmins but they were Ksatriyas by nature. On the other hand, Visvamitra, a valorous Ksatriya king known for his violent and passionate temperament, became a Brahmin rsi. Cases like this are extremely rare, and are exceptions to the rule of jati dharma. On the whole we see that the Lord functions on the basis that, whatever be the outward qualities of individuals, their inner
    quality is in keeping with their hereditary vocations.
    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post



    His above argument is not based on reality.

    OM
    Perhaps you can tell us what is false in the above statement?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Last edited by satay; 22 May 2010 at 03:29 PM. Reason: fixed quote tag
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  5. #215

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    It is interesting to see that you didn't understand my post at all. The reason I put "you" in quotes is to emphasize INDIVIDUALITY. The exact reason you took that as ad hominem is why I think westerners should stay away from Sanatana Dharma.

    "End of the story?" What story? Or is that a poorly worded threat?
    Namaste TatTvamAsi,

    Practically it means that you are put in the ignore list for an indefinite time.

    All the best,

    Philippe

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté TTA
    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    The exact reason you took that as ad hominem is why I think westerners should stay away from Sanatana Dharma.
    This subject has been contentious here on HDF over the years , and I am not here to fan the flames.

    IMHO a Hindu comes from birth, and not from proclamation. Why so? Hindu as I understand it was originally a secular term used to depict all the inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent (or Hindustan) irrespective of their religious affiliation. It seems straight forward to consider one is a Hindu if from Hindustan.

    Yet it is my firm belief that one can practice and assimilate sanātana dharma even if not aboriginal to India. It is universal by nature and we are blessed as a people that India and those of Hindustan have carried sanātana dharma for all to view, consider and practice. For this we are indebited World-wide to the effort and the compassion of the Indian people to be patient with the rest of the world to catch up.

    praām
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 May 2010 at 09:37 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    namaste Isavasya.

    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post
    yes If you are saying some things are better learnt from childhood I will agree for part of karmakanda, but mimamsa is dead a long time ago. How many srauta brahmins are alive today ? Do you know duties of brahmana , what should be their occupation? Daily routines? People working in Infosys, wipro, multinational companies and earning like vaishya or sudra are not brahmana sir. Please know that brahmanas engaging in these professions are taken below sudra according to shastra. How many brahmins today do yagna, havana daily for world peace. Do brahmins have fire burning in their homes ?There are above 6 crores brahmins in india, how many of them follow the prescribed duties, yet you take them to be brahmin, and even their next generation. I on the contrary, have opinion that those who show and practice brahmanical qualities are brahmins, kashtriye qualities are kshatriye and so on.
    01. In the olden days, it was the responsibility of the King to ensure that everyone conformed to his varNa. The Dharma ShAstras and other texts gave the authority to the King to punish those who swerved out of their varNa and cast them into the avarNa group, for a certain period or even permanently. If such a system existed today, brahmins would definitely follow their varNa with vigour and dedication.

    02. In the society of our olden days, brahmins were supported for their living by the other varNas, so they had no necessity or reason to worry about the three basic necessities of life--food, clothes and shelter--and devote their entire time to the varNa dharma. Even some fifty or sixty years back, some brahmin families in villages subsisted on unja-vritti--getting alms of rice for cooking. And today, most of the brahmin families in villages whose breadwinners are temple priests, live in poverty, with no scope to give their children competitive worldly education.

    03. Since a person's guNa-karma decides the birth which in turn decides the varNa, even in the olden days, some of the brAhmaNas practised the occupations of other varNas and excelled in them: Sage drONAchArya is a classic example, and there were many other examples detailed in my post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...32&postcount=6 . This shows that although the King had the responsibility to regulate varNa dharma, he also had the discretion to recognize and promote deserving cases, based on their skills and social acceptability.

    04. Again in the olden days, all the three varNas--brAhmaNas, kShatriyas and vyshyas--were initiated as dvijas by the upanayanam ceremony and sent to the gurukulam for studying the Vedas (although it was mostly brahmins who chanted the Vedas in rituals). The shUdras were exempted because Vedic Sanskrit was not their mother tongue and they had no time for such endeavours.

    In the totally changed circumstances today,

    • How many people from the kShatriya and vyshya varNa wear the holy thread they are eligible to, and are willing to take up the study of Vedas?

    • Although politicians would make the world believe that the shUdras are not allowed to study the Vedas, how many of the shUdras have the real inclination and preference towards it, when even the brahmins whose occupation it is, struggle to make both ends meet in their daily life?

    • The objective of the politicians is to destroy Hindu Dharma, not just the varNa. Since they can't give logical reasoning for abolition of varNa and caste, which system is in fact a guardian of Hindu Dharma, they declare themselves as atheists and secularists to the public and attack Hinduism.

    Had it not been for Gandhiji, India would have been a Hindu nation, and would have preserved the time-honoured varNa and caste system which has distinctions with explicit strictures against discrimination. Such distinction with utmost discrimination does exist in all forms of hierarchical systems in public and private life of the modern society, and this is because of the human guNa-karma and ego.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste TTA,

    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    I would have never thought you would say such a thing!
    I think you should have thought that. I can't see any truth seeker being humilated or hurt .... & be a passive onlooker.

    Are you aware of the realities more than he was?
    Yes, if he is not even aware who Rishi Parashar, Maharishi Vyas, Saint Ravidas, Meerabai, Swami Vivekananda, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Sri Aurobindo etc. were. None of these saints were Brahmins. Why Lord Krishna, a vaisya by birth, taught like a brahmin and fought like a kshatriya ? Didn't he violate his Jati-dharma ? Or should Lord Krishna have taken lessons from Swami ji & acted as per his Jati-dharma as he advocates ?

    Yes, if he doesn't know that in Indian Army the best of our warriors come from all classes in Hindu society and very few of them are Kshatriya by birth.

    Yes, if he is unaware that there are many so-called Brahmins (the number is in hundreds of thousands) who indulge in drinking, are not aware of the Vedas, eat meat (even beef) and even go to the prostitutes. On the other hand, there are many so-called Sudras who are truthful, have deep knowledge of the scriptures and have immpecable, taintless character. Who should be called Brahmin here ?

    Yes, if he is not aware that Vajrashoochika Upanishad does not give credence to Varna by birth theory.

    Swami ji has given his own opinion about what Lord says in BG. It has its value limited to being that alone ... i.e. an opinion. He doesn't become Lord Krishna Himself !

    To discredit him is to discredit Adi Sankara's works.
    That is what you think. I don't want to argue over all your self-made opinions.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam all
    Why Lord Krishna, a vaisya by birth, taught like a brahmin and fought like a kshatriya ? Didn't he violate his Jati-dharma ? Or should Lord Krishna have taken lessons from Swami ji & acted as per his Jati-dharma as he advocates ?
    For the record Lord Krishna was born off Vasudev and Devki and they certainly were not Vaisya
    and while we are at it Vyasdev the son off Parasar we can trace their Gotra to Vasistha, these are rare personality with extraordinary birth.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste Ganeshprasad ji,

    The kingdom of Surasena was the native kingdom of Yadava clans constituted by the Andhakas, Vrishnis and Bhojas. Its ruler was Kamsa, the brother of Devaki. Devaki and Vasudeva both were Yadvas.

    So, Krishna was a Yadava by birth. He was a prince, no doubt, but a Yadava Prince. It is not that only the Kshatriyas were kings in those times. In fact, a number of great kings of India were not Kshatriyas e.g. the Nandas (Barber, Sudra), the Mauryas (the peacock tamers, Sudras), the Guptas (Vaisyas) etc.

    For the caste of Maharishi Parashar and Maharishi Vedvyas ... please note that they were Sudras (Nishads). The father of Maharishi Parashar was a Brahmin but his mother was from Chaandaala caste. So, in accordance with Manu Smriti, Maharishi Parashar was a Sudra by birth. Similarly, Maharishi Vedvyas was born to Maharishi Parashar (a Sudra) and Satyavati (Nishad, a Sudra woman). So, by birth, Maharishi Vedvyas was a Sudra. You can refer to Laws of Manu to verify what I am saying.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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