Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 43

Thread: Human Migrations into India

Hybrid View

  1. #1

    Human Migrations into India

    Namaste all,

    This is a subject I have been studying a little recently. A friend of mine recently showed me this article:
    http://genome.cshlp.org/content/11/6/994.full
    which basically makes the point that ancient humans from West Eurasia migrated into India and created the caste system and put themselves in the castes of "higher rank". The evidence for it is that the genetic makeup for members of the high castes are more similar to European genetics than other the genetic makeup for other castes do. The article goes into great detail and can explain it better than I can.

    On one hand, this sounds like a sort of watered-down AIT, but on another hand it does not seem so absurd. After all, haven't there been numerous different waves of migrations into India since the time the first humans migrated out of Africa? Please note that my friend is not a Christian (he is actually a former Catholic, now atheist) and does not have any sort of "agenda". He is actually against AIT and believes it's false. He just has an interest in anthropology and genealogy and studies it a lot. The point that he is trying to make is basically that each wave of migrations into India "contributed linguistically and culturally in some way or another. The populations mixed with the natives, took on native customs etc."

    It was my understanding that the caste system had been around (in it's pure, unadulterated form) since the beginning of Vedic civilization, but I could be wrong as I don't know much about its history. Is it not correct that the Vedas were revealed to the ancient rishis, the Vedic civilization gradually developed and flourished, and during that time there were waves of migrations into India? So where does the caste system play into this? How can the similarity of the genetic makeups of high caste members and Europeans be explained? Another thing to note is that he said these weren't "Europeans" like we think of today, but rather "Eurasians" who came from no farther west than the Balkans.

    Any thoughts on this, or can anyone point me to good sources about the historical waves of migration into India?

    Jai Sri Ram

  2. #2

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Million-year-old tools found near Chennai - India’s prehistory pushed back

    http://www.telegraphindia.com/111032...y_13763075.jsp

  3. #3
    Join Date
    September 2010
    Posts
    1,064
    Rep Power
    1014

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Quote Originally Posted by flabber View Post
    Million-year-old tools found near Chennai - India’s prehistory pushed back

    http://www.telegraphindia.com/111032...y_13763075.jsp
    Side question: Aren't scientific prehistory and the Ramayana incompatible date-wise?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    January 2010
    Location
    tadvishno paramam padam
    Age
    38
    Posts
    2,168
    Rep Power
    2547

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    Side question: Aren't scientific prehistory and the Ramayana incompatible date-wise?
    History cannot prove the historicity of our itihasas, but there have been findings that support the stories, for example the discovery of Dvaraka city and the bridge of Srirama, but of course this is not conclusive evidence, but I will put my faith in the itihasas nonetheless.

    There are many things in our itihasas that scientists and historians will never be able to accept. How can a monkey man lift a mountain and eat the sun? This is too much to ask a scientist to believe, but for someone who has faith in the gods, this should not be such a big stretch to believe. If you believe in Gods in the first place, there's no reason not to believe that they are powerful beyond human understanding.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    September 2010
    Posts
    1,064
    Rep Power
    1014

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    I'm just asking, not to stop believing based on science, science is always changing, slowly climbing to the top while vedic knowledge stands its high ground.

    I'm merely wondering when science is going to get near it.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    January 2010
    Location
    tadvishno paramam padam
    Age
    38
    Posts
    2,168
    Rep Power
    2547

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    I'm merely wondering when science is going to get near it.
    Probably never. It like asking, when is a person without eyes going to see?

  7. #7

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    History cannot prove the historicity of our itihasas, but there have been findings that support the stories, for example the discovery of Dvaraka city and the bridge of Srirama, but of course this is not conclusive evidence, but I will put my faith in the itihasas nonetheless.

    There are many things in our itihasas that scientists and historians will never be able to accept. How can a monkey man lift a mountain and eat the sun? This is too much to ask a scientist to believe, but for someone who has faith in the gods, this should not be such a big stretch to believe. If you believe in Gods in the first place, there's no reason not to believe that they are powerful beyond human understanding.

    I fully agree with your views.
    In Ramayana there is mention of 4 tusk elephant , seen by Hanuman during his Lanka exploits,The question is how could there be a mention of the elephants with four tusks unless Valmiki and the people of his era were familiar with such creatures? A quick search on the Encarta Encyclopedia will let us know that these four-tusked elephants were known as Mastodontoidea, which are said to have evolved around 38 million years ago and became extinct about 15 million years ago ( quote )

    Basically the ancient Indian history is distorted due to various reasons during the British rule and it still continues. Unless we Indians come out of the British Influence we can never know the true history of India.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    September 2007
    Location
    Luxembourg
    Age
    64
    Posts
    29
    Rep Power
    44

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramana View Post

    Basically the ancient Indian history is distorted due to various reasons during the British rule and it still continues. Unless we Indians come out of the British Influence we can never know the true history of India.
    Namaste Ramana,

    Although I am only an outsider with a very modest knowledge of the subject, it might be sufficient to realise that this is true.

    But when I read what Indians write about the Aryan Invasion/Migration Theory, I wonder if there is not an element that is often neglected. This AIT was used by colonial propaganda and it was influenced by colonial mentality from the outset, but that could also have happened to the Out of India Theory, and I think it would have, if at that time, the OIT had seemed to be the most plausible one. The AIT had the advantage of simplicity, and hence, of compatibility with the very low standard of linguistic and genetic knowledge of the European 19th century.

    In fact, the most logical conclusion from the AIT would not have been the one the colonisers made, but rather an "anti-colonial" one: if Indian civilisation had resulted from the interaction of uncivilised warriors from the North with civilised inhabitants of the subcontinent, and if these warriors had also invaded Europe, then, the coloniser necessarily had more primitive ancestors than the colonised...

    If the British had taken their own theory seriously, they should have followed the example of the "Aryan invaders", and adopted Hindu culture.

    From my readings on the subject, I conclude that there is some truth in both theories. I would summarise this as follows:

    - Most European languages developed from languages that migrated out of India (exceptions being Basque, Finnish and Hungarian).

    -The old European religion looks like a primitive version of Hinduism, and probably migrated with the languages out of India, before Sanatana Dharma was well developed, or perhaps losing much of its riches in the course of migration.

    -Even the new European religion, Christianity, adopted many Indo-European elements, but they were often distorted.

    - Several dozens of milennia before this cultural Out-of-India movement, that may not have involved large population migrations, common ancestors of both Europeans and Indians migrated to both India and Europe from the Middle East or the area that is now Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan, and probably, they arrived in India before arriving in Europe. Probably, there was already a population present in India, and part of this population may have come from East Asia, or have invaded East Asia from India.

    Is there anything that contradicts this hypothesis, to your knowledge?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    October 2009
    Location
    South of the center line
    Posts
    245
    Rep Power
    607

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramakrishna View Post




    Is it not correct that the Vedas were revealed to the ancient rishis, the Vedic civilization gradually developed and flourished, and during that time there were waves of migrations into India? So where does the caste system play into this? Another thing to note is that he said these weren't "Europeans" like we think of today, but rather "Eurasians" who came from no farther west than the Balkans.

    Namaste Ramakrishna,

    No there was no such thing as migration or gradual migration of vedic people into India. When we talk about theories, they involve assumptions or speculations. As long as speculations have any backing from baisc premises then one is within his rights to make assumptions, but when basic premises itself don't support any speculation then theories are just figment of imagination. In our case our whole theory revolves around migration of aryans or more specifically VEDIC people into india. Now first thing we have got to do is check for is hint of that from vedas itself. Veda itself completely refutes any theory that vedic people came from foreign land. There is mention of 91 RIVERS in vedas and all of those rivers are present in Indian sub-continent, i.e - from pakistan to bengal. None of the rivers described are rivers of russia, ukraine, urasia or even iran. All the aryaland described in vedas too come under boundaries of indian sub-continent, so logically there is no chance that vedic people came from outside india, as if that was case at-least some rivers of europe or west asia would have been described in vedas for sure.


    All in all India was always inhabited by vedic people, it is absolutely illogical to believe in any theory which makes assumptions without any backing. Also most of articles you see on internet are written from european point of view, some of those articles are sheer propaganda of max mullers and his followers. Aryavartha = India= bharat varsha
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    June 2010
    Location
    Kolkata
    Posts
    834
    Rep Power
    491

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    I thought we had discussion on this in some other thread. Still I would request you to refer to http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...tory-of-humans

    The digital version has to be subscribed. I take the print version. As per the research the earliest human movement into India was in South from Africa and that was around 100000 yrs back.
    There after a branch moved along the west coastline and another moved to Srilanka and Andaman. This was around 65000 yrs back. Saraswathi civilisation was established (in the Gujrat area) thereafter. After the river dried up there was movement towards Indus valley and then to Ganges.

    However another branch from Africa came along the Middle east coast line to India (aorund 40000 yrs back). One offshoot from Africa went to Europe. Thereafter from the present Iran - Afghanistan one branch moved north. The Europe one moved east. Slowly they spread in the Asian China and Russia.

    One branch crossed over to Alaska and moved south to the southern America.

    This is the flow of DNA.

    Now some common sense.

    Without much protections, where would one find humans - obviously near fresh water and tropical climate areas. So earlier people were more comfortable in moving and populating the middle east (nearer to the rivers) and then the comfortable place India.

    Being such a fertile place and climate suitable for rich vegetation, agriculture and living would have been very easy. The advantage of agriculture is that you sow once and enjoy for the whole year. You have no work further. So the time you get can be used for many things - knowledge is one of them. The knowledge of society, town planning, astronomy, herbal utilities, life, creation, fabrics, etc. These all are possible in a stable society.

    Remember that when India was known for the weath of knowledge and wealth, the most of Europe and northern Asia were Nomads. They lived by hunting and lived by days. They lived on horse back. Such a society, which is not stable, cannot be the light house of knowledge !!!

    If such a branch came to India, where is the original beacon of light. We do not find the same level knowledge elsewhere !!! So this is a myth.

    That is why we see taxila and nalanda as the first universities where people used to come from all over the world.

    This supremacy of knowledge was a big blow to the Christianity. So the missionaries influenced Max Mueller to distort the history of India based on the theories of Bible.

    He himself had admitted later that there are no Aryan and Dravidian divide. the discovery of Indus valley civilisation and the recent gulf of cambay sites, etc have demolised the theory.

    DNA study has reveled that there is hardly any difference in the Indian population across India which might point out to any sudden influx of outside people. Yes there has been gradual assimilation of outside people over 1000s of years.

    Love and best wishes

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •