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Thread: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

  1. #191

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    You people are not ready for Hinduism; you have not evolved enough...

    Hate to break it to you, but, "you" don't matter at all...

    Don't talk about something you have no clue about--Indian history...
    Interesting, indeed. Are you reading minds ?

    Tat Tvam Asi, you would be kind to keep a civil tone and avoid baseless and discriminatory ad hominem. Else I am afraid that it will be the end of the story.

    Philippe

  2. #192
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Swami-ji, excuse my ignorance, but I have been sitting next to your lotus feet waiting to be told the story from the scriptures about how...


    Seriously, I am trying to learn here, but I would like you to point me to the scripture that says being born outside India is karmic regression and the scripture that says foreigners can not be Hindu or incorporate Sanatana Dharma into their lives. While I respect your views, I would like to see actual scholarly proof on the subject and not angry ramblings about how we are avarna and dirty. Please I humbly request this as your servant.

    I just find it hard to believe no one can become Hindu when DNA shows no less than 3 ethnic groups in India (R1a, L, H) then you have Hindus in Myanmar, Indonesia and Nepal who are different and are Hindu's. Just look at the distribution and spread of Hinduism from the Indus valley. If your argument was valid then the Dharma wouldn't have reached Dravidian Southern India it would have just sat in the Indus valley.

    "I am just very skeptical of foreigners who say they are interested in Hinduism because of my personal experiences."

    A HA! I knew there were some deep rooted issues! The froth boils from the pot at last. I understand that a some westerners (especially Americans) are misguided and have the attention span of a flies wing beat, but this does not mean all of us are. I am here for a real purpose that I feel in my heart, not some whim that I had after eating breakfast. I love and respect your culture, and while I do not expect you to jump for joy a little respect to me would be nice. It takes a brave person to reach into the unknown.


  3. #193
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Vannakkam all:

    I think I understand TTA's viewpoint regarding westerners. Perhaps its been his karma just to meet the fools. I get frustrated with fellow westerners too.

    One guy came by the temple one day, and asked me what kind of temple it was, and he said, "Oh yeah, that's the one with the porn on the temples." Then he proceeded to describe to me his own involvement with porn, until I cut him off, and went back to work.

    I've been told adamantly by westerners that you can't convert.
    I watched new-agers go hugging swamis - inappropriate out of context behaviour.
    I saw people whine about Indian food, just being rude to guests.
    One lady accused my swami of proselytysing after he gave a speech about Hinduism inside a Hindu temple to Hindus.

    So yes, there are a lot of ignorant guru-hopping new-age, jump around its cool, conceited American ego nutcases out there. Obviously TTA has met a few of them. So have I.

    I'm my experience, the ratio is probably about 5 nutcases to 1 sincere one. And that goes for HDF too. One of the frustrating things here is when a person asks a question, gets several answers, and then the next day says something like the same question all over again, or "BTW, I'm now interested in Buddhism."

    But Darji, I also understand where you're coming from because I was there too at one time. But there afre many people besides TTA who are answering your questions. Go with them. I feel you're letting the harshness get to you, and not listening to the kinder gentler answers.

    People, when introduced to others, start out with one of two basic premises: trust, or distrust. Then either they learn to trust the people they assumed they should distrust, or they learn to distrust the ones they trusted. Either that or their original impulse was correct.

    After watching and reading certain responses here for a couple of years, I have had it go both ways. There are people whom I've come to disrespect, and others who I've grown to like after the initial reaction. It takes time to figure things out. And we all have lots of that.

    Aum Namasivaya

  4. #194
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    But there afre many people besides TTA who are answering your questions. Go with them. I feel you're letting the harshness get to you, and not listening to the kinder gentler answers.
    I am listening and learning, and my path to our Lord is becoming much more clear thanks to the help of you and many others here. I do take everything that they say, meditate on it and put it into practice, so there is no distraction from my journey on TatTs account. I am merely interested in his anti-western views and would like to see scriptures that support his view, I have seen scriptures supporting the general view that westerners with pure hearts are welcome, but not the texts that say the opposite which TatT and some others here hold true. In order to truly understand you must see all sides.

    My journey will not end, and I will be here until the forum goes away or Satay kicks me.

  5. #195
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    p.s.

    I think my fascination with TatT's view is the fact I have been around Sanatana Dharma all my life. Like I said in my introduction one of my first memories is of a Ganesha painting. Does this make me a Hindu? absolutely not, but it was a major influence in my life. Which leads me to my point, I have had the pleasure of knowing many Hindus in my life, they all were open and welcoming, so I guess I'm a little taken back by the views expressed by a few people here as it is contrary to the views of all the Hindus I have known over my life thus far.


  6. #196
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by Darji View Post
    I have seen scriptures supporting the general view that westerners with pure hearts are welcome, but not the texts that say the opposite which TatT and some others here hold true. In order to truly understand you must see all sides.

    .
    I like to know who this others are, while TTA is forthright and vocal in his opinions and has reservation about foreigners.
    Did he coin the world malecha? No it exist in the Sanskrit vocabulary, why because those who eat meat are, especially those who eat cow are without doubt lowest of the low. Now consider the vast majority of westerners are, by nature meat eaters , drinks and encourages to have girlfriend, if you did not do all this it is considered there is something wrong here.
    If Hindus are wary of this it not without reason.
    As for scripture here is what Lord Krishna says to Arjun

    idam te natapaskaya
    nabhaktaya kadacana
    na casusrusave vacyam
    na ca mam yo 'bhyasuyati
    This (knowledge) should never be spoken by you to one who is devoid of austerity, who is without devotion, who does not desire to listen, or who speaks ill of Me. (18.67)

    Even today some Dharama Guru would not leave the shores of Bharat

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Last edited by Ganeshprasad; 15 May 2010 at 04:17 PM.
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  7. #197
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam all

    I am done here I have said enough on Varna, no need to regurgitate over and over again , yes there has been some exception but the rule always had been Gotra, I don’t need to beat my head against a stone wall. Lord Krishna, having explained the varna established by him, in the next verse says how the karma do not bind him and in very next verse 4.15 he says

    you should do your duty as the ancient did.

    I shell part with this

    Mahabharata Shanti parva

    "Yudhishthira said, 'Thou O grandsire, art endued with wisdom and knowledge of the scriptures, with conduct and behaviour, with diverse kinds of excellent attributes, and also with years. Thou art distinguished above others by intelligence and wisdom and penances. I shall, therefore, O thou that art the foremost of all righteous men, desire to address enquiries to thee respecting Righteousness. There is not another man, O king, in all the worlds, who is worthier of being questioned on such subjects. O best of kings, how may one, if he happens to be a Kshatriya or a Vaisya or a Sudra, succeed in acquiring the status of a Brahmana? It behoveth thee to tell me the means. Is it by penances the most austere, or by religious acts, or by knowledge of the scriptures, that a person belonging to any of the three inferior orders succeeds in acquiring the status of a Brahmana? Do tell me this, O grandsire!'
    "Bhishma said, 'The status of a Brahmana, O Yudhishthira, is incapable of acquisition by a person belonging to any of the three other orders. That status is the highest with respect to all creatures. Travelling through innumerable orders of existence, by undergoing repeated births, one at last, in some birth, becomes born as a Brahmana.
     
    ...."Bhishma continued, 'Hearing these words of his, Purandara said unto him. The status of a Brahmana, O Matanga, which thou desirest to acquire is really unattainable by thee. It is true, thou desirest to acquire it, but then it is incapable of acquisition by persons begotten on uncleansed souls. O thou of foolish understanding, thou art sure to meet with destruction if thou persistest in this pursuit. Desist, therefore, from this vain endeavour without any delay. This object of thy desire, viz., the status of a Brahmana, which is the foremost of everything, is incapable of being won by penances. Therefore, by coveting that foremost status, thou wilt incur sure destruction. One born as a Chandala can never attain to that status which is regarded as the most sacred among the deities and Asuras and human beings!'" end of quote.
     
    Varna has traditionally been recognised by birth, birth again is determined by Guna and Karma, so the cycle goes on, until one decide to transcend all designation.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Last edited by Ganeshprasad; 15 May 2010 at 04:20 PM.
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  8. #198
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Now consider the vast majority of westerners are, by nature meat eaters , drinks and encourages to have girlfriend, if you did not do all this it is considered there is something wrong here.
    If Hindus are wary of this it not without reason.
    Vannakkam Ganeshprasad:

    This is true of westerners indeed. But it is not the average westerner who comes and seeks out HDF. I would guess only one in a hundred thousand westerners would find this place. Firstly, he or she has an interest of some sort or wouldn't have searched and found this site. By reading a bit, he may go away just because by reading, this place was not what he was looking for.

    Still, as I said before, I am truly amazed that some that get here don't do enough reading. And I must say there have been a few 'ignorant' Indians come here too.

    Aum Namasivaya

  9. #199
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    TTA offers us the following:
    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    The system was, is, and always will be perfect. Otherwise, we'd be practicing something manmade and imperfect! Varnashrama Dharma is from the Lord! Thus, there are no imperfections.

    Ganeshprasad offers something simular in post #196 above to what I wish to pursue here if I may.

    Kṛṣṇa-ji informs us in Chapter 3, 4th śloka, niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ¹ - do your allotted/perscribed duty. This is the wisdom offered on varṇa (class of men , tribe , order , caste ) that includes dharma at its root dhṛ ( to uphold, support).

    Dharma is that which upholds and includes one's allotted duty. But what is the allotted,established, settled (niyataṁ) Kṛṣṇa-ji is talking about? It is one's actions one was born to do; those natural actions according to ones own dharma - that which upholds ( dhṛ ).

    But yajvan you continue to speak of this dhṛ , can you be more specific? Let me offer what I was taught. This notion of that which upholds are those actions that allows, supports, helps one evolve, survive and nurture abundance in their immediate environment ( self, family, friends community) and at the same time are still in concert with the natural laws found in creation. It is one's right-ness of actions.

    How can you tell this right-ness? My teacher has said it is those actions that minimizes stress-and-strain, excessive effort and obstructions. There is a minimum burden to one's life, surroundings and environment as they maintain life and continue to unfold spiritually.

    In older days the son usually followed the same occupation as did his father... way so? It was easy do to. This fulfills the 'minimum stress'
    approach for one's allotted duty ( niyataṁkuru karma tvaṁ ) . But why ? So one would have more time for their spiritual pursuits.

    Learning from father or mother was at home and grooming occurred. Then additional learning could also proceed. It was a simple approach that was effective and whole.
    This even occurred in the West - the blacksmith's son, become the black smith. The store keeper's son or daughter became the owner of the store. We can see the beauty here ? This at its root is the varṇa system in use.
    Now we fast forward to modern times and the co-mingling of Families, occupations, technology, training and the like occurred. No clear line of sight to one's varṇa ( in the West) was easily in view. Add in ambition and the desire to move up - people left the family businesses or core competencies and pursed their own line of work, faith, etc.

    Many people even today say why am I here a.k.a. - What is my allotted duty ? What am i hear for? One may be successful in a career
    but bankrupt spiritually. Many may critise the varṇa system yet the the design is an ideal approach to offer one the fullness in life. That of one's duty, occupation, and spiritual growth.

    This is the Wisdom of Kṛṣṇa-ji and the Indian point of view. One may argue - we would not have the same level of technological progress in the world, or medial advancements. This I do not know, but I do know all those things still have not produced a harmonious and healthy society as yet.

    praām

    words
    • niyataṁkuru karma tvaṁ
      • niyataṁ - fixed , established , settled , sure , regular , invariable , positive ; disciplined , self-governed
      • kuru - here it is being used as doer; this would is very robust and can take us all the way the ancestor of both pāṇḍu and dhṛtarāṣṭra, not to mention the battlefield kurukṣetra.
      • karma - is karman which is act , action , performance, business
      • tvaṁ - your, thy
    Last edited by yajvan; 15 May 2010 at 08:34 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Did he coin the world malecha? No it exist in the Sanskrit vocabulary, why because those who eat meat are, especially those who eat cow are without doubt lowest of the low.
    There are many words in Sanskrit but it is not necessary that all are civil and we should we use them without discrimination.

    As for scripture here is what Lord Krishna says to Arjun

    idam te natapaskaya
    nabhaktaya kadacana
    na casusrusave vacyam
    na ca mam yo 'bhyasuyati
    This (knowledge) should never be spoken by you to one who is devoid of austerity, who is without devotion, who does not desire to listen, or who speaks ill of Me. (18.67)
    Does it talk of Malechha or does it apply to all without any discrimination on the basis of caste, race or region ?

    Even today some Dharama Guru would not leave the shores of Bharat
    But it was the order of some great Dharma Gurus only which resulted in spread of Hinduism outside India by some of our great saints. One among them is Deathless Babaji who specifically told to his disciples that there were many real Truth Seekers outside India & it was the duty of Saints from India to go there & help them.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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