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Thread: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

  1. #21
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    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaskar Mana ji,

    Apologies, I must beg your indulgence for a little longer. I am hitting the wall of imprecise words creating paradoxes due to duality/nonduality, and finding it very difficult to explain what is in my heart. But I feel I may be missing something important. I don't know how I can express this and still be concise and short...

    I understand what you are saying, it is truth. But I cannot agree that Bhakti is only a result of Surrender. Bhakti is Surrender, it is devotion and love. I do not think you can have one without the other. I am defining Bhakti here as complete Devotion and Love to one's Ista Devata, as I understand it that is the classic meaning of the word, and the root denotes giving and/or receiving one's share. Bhakti isn't a goal to achieve, it is complete trust, love, devotion and surrender to God and, if you have one, to Guru. Realization is the natural conclusion of complete Surrender/Bhakti. To to have Bhakti, one at first needs a direction in which to Surrender, or express Bhakti, even though in the end it is Surrender both to and of the Self. Knowing only that there is an Immanent God and nothing else is not enough of a direction for most, thus the question I posed above.

    It is interesting that there is another thread concurrent with this one that definitely explains what I am trying to say better than I seem to be able to: C. Smith ji's thread on Surrender and Love. Particularly Devotee ji's observations in the second post, and specifically point B.

    Thank you so much for engaging with me in this, it is incredibly helpful in smoothing out the knots of confusion in my own mind and reaching a deeper understanding. In doing this, it helps me to quiet my thoughts and surrender even more. I am very grateful.

    ~Pranams
    Last edited by Aanandinii; 10 April 2014 at 08:31 AM.
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  2. #22

    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaste Aanandinii,

    It is my pleasure to discuss such if my thoughts can be of any assistance then it is all the better, bhakti can be had for anything.
    The student who has bhakti for his subject will undoubtedly prevail in a way that any who perform the same task menially.
    When one truly loves to do something they give of them selves fully, I mean that they are so deep in concentration that the self part just disappears. This for example, in the case of a musician, perhaps a singer can be heard happen by those around them who are astute enough. Not all music will do this and it does depend on taste and the desires of the performer. Again this comes back to whether it is done with bhakti.

    When we appreciate the work or the creation of others, sometimes there is that indescribable something imbued in whatever they do; this can be in their actions and communications as well as their work study or whatever it may be; everyone is different.
    My vehicle for this "meditation" is music, when I leave for practis and achieve that state I feel enlivened afterwards refreshed. Because I have Bhakti for that practice.
    Now if you can also imagine that very same place, that space achieved in such devotional worship, can be reached by knowing in your heart that everything is interconnected, that you are not separated from anything nor have you ever been, then a very intense form of the same can be achieved until time becomes other than that.

    There is a soft spot between doing and not doing. Which allows the soul to bloom.

    Surrender to knowledge, it can not be entirely understood by way of cognition; it can be smelt upon the air like the fresh fragrance of spring ...

    Kind regards.
    Last edited by Mana; 17 April 2014 at 11:47 PM.

  3. #23

    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Love is a curious word I find it lacks real sense. There are so many different types of love that one word seems to me a ludicrous proposition for such a vast infinite wide as it is deep subject.

    Love, is often used to simply describe a mutual co-dependance (often times not so mutual).

    Kind regards.

  4. #24
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    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    Love is a curious word I find it lacks real sense.
    I used to think this way... then the insight of love was offered to me.
    Love is the highest level of appreciation one can have - it is that of adoration. It is found in the 1st lines of the ṛg ved.

    No co-dependence is necessary. The Supreme offers His grace to all. For some they enjoy its rays... for others, well not so much.


    iti śiva
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #25

    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaste Yajvan Ji,

    That LOVE, yes well quite, but how to portray that succinctly, with out creating the impression of something completely different to another, in their minds eye.

    Thank you for the valuable insight into both love and the rk Veda. I believe, if I am not mistaken, that the first verse speaks of Agni Deva; I wonder, would you be so kind as to translate this verse for us?

    Kind regards.

  6. #26
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    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaste Aanandinii,

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanandinii View Post
    I have been thinking about them and I feel that we agree except on one point. If Bhakti is the result of Freedom or Realization, and Freedom is Realizing and honoring God in every single thing and person, feeling only love, then why have I not had Bhakti till now and am not Realized despite feeling Bhakti?
    That is beautiful understanding. Bhakti is the first step. Bhakti is nothing but a form of love ... love with the Divine (It can have many forms). Bhakti attracts Divine grace. With Divine Grace, you progress spiritually ... help keeps coming in many ways due to Divine Grace so that you keep progressing spiritually. Finally, It grants you a Sad-Guru and Sad-Guru gives you road-map of Self-realisation/God-realisation. By treading that path, you attain the Ultimate.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  7. #27
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    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaskar,

    My sincere apologies for such a long absence from this thread. Yajvan ji, Manaji, Devotee ji, you give me much to consider and think on, thank you. =)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    ...bhakti can be had for anything..."

    My apologies if I take you out of context, kind friend, but after long reflection on my own past experience, I cannot agree - though I only think I understand your assertion and admit that perhaps I do not. Perhaps what is needed is some of my own context, though I don't know how successful I can be at describing my own path. I should add here that I have no idea of your own path or history not anyone else's who may read this, but in the end I hope that it shouldn't matter much aside from helping to clarify my own thoughts and perhaps help others understand my own path to Sanatama Dharma better.

    To my mind what you describe above is also achieved through "belief" or "faith", as in a core conviction despite what evidence is placed in your way to the opposite conclusion: evidence faith in God despite (or because of) modern Western scientific learning. But knowing there is a God doesn't give you a direction in which to point your conviction, nor a set of guidelines to follow or an end result to strive for - nor even a reason for the existence of such a Being despite the fact that there really need not necessarily be one. Put another way, feeling God's presence in/through Music or Nature or any other medium is not the same as Knowing, Loving and Following/Pursuing the Path of God, and being answered.

    I have always been sure God exists and always felt God in the world around me, especially in Music. The world of philosophy and thought to which I was born in this birth did not even remotely match what I know in my heart to be true, none of it applied. this left me directionless. Without this, without direction, how can I have Bhakti? I couldn't, I never did. I had faith, but that's not the same thing. Without direction, you can feel whatever, but you largely spin your wheels - if you'll pardon the over-used metaphor. You simply re-affirm what you already know.

    What you describe with music is something I have also felt - I still feel it even though I haven't played in years. Your description gave me strong memories, thank you for that. But that, while a nice and often strong substitute, is still a pale substitute without direction. What I feel now, now that I have found my path... it is orders of magnitude more immense and powerful and colorful... words fail.

    With Direction and Understanding - however small that understanding is, compared to none at all - God hears and responds. This relationship and love immense feeling that overwhelms all else and leaves one in both silence and turmoil for more, this is what I mean by 'Bhakti'. It cannot be had for nothing because it requires "Something" in order to be had at all, partly because you need direction and patly because it is not one-sided, but is reciprocal. "Love" is the closest thing that we have in the English Language to that "Something". To experience that Love , one needs more than "Belief" or "Failth" - those seem to become facile in comparison. One needs a direction and a response from that direction.

    What I posit that one needs is a connection to God in the form any one jiva in a given birth experiences God, and not only is this is different for each jiva, it can be different even for each birth to any one jiva. If I may quote Sri Yajvan ji:

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Love is the highest level of appreciation one can have - it is that of adoration.

    To adore to the fullest extent, so completely that one would abandon everything and anything in an instant and with no thought at all to follow God's path, that one will change everything about their life by a suggestion, and to feel answered is Bhakti.

    For this one needs something to adore, or a direction to adore in, at the very least. Knowing God was there somewhere was not enough to bring out Bhakti or adoration, I had to find God, and for me it was never the Abrahamic Yhwh, no matter how it was presented. I know this may not be everyone's experience, but I also know I am not the only one to experience in this way.

    Mana ji, I want to thank you again for your thoughts and stimulation on this. I am more grateful than I can express to you and everyone else who has posted in this thread - and to Eric ji for creating it. I hope I have not offended or flogged any horses, alive or otherwise.

    ~Pranams
    Last edited by Aanandinii; 09 May 2014 at 11:52 PM.
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  8. Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaste dear Aanandinii,

    The process of ones own realization is intimately intertwined with the realization of God; to realize God consciousness is to infuse ones own thought and time with that of the rhythms of the universe in such a way that no doubt is or ever was as to the nature of the divine. This process does not happen necessarily all at once nor is it initially permanently, but is a gradual unfurling or unfolding as you grow. We remember and forget again our own nature; rather like the growth spurts of a child. Entwined with our path it is inseparable from space, time and our cerebral matter. Bhakti is to my mind the state or stage when we are conscious of God, the nectar, and this nectar is a driving energy which leads to action; action in this state of mind can be a curious affair as the relevance of time to events is dramatically altered and the minds eye becomes a pivotal axis of objective and subjective thought; cause an effect mingle. So, if we are found to be energized by belief, the failure to channel or to balance this objective subjective thought could be damaging to both the individual, and those around them; bhakti helps install these tools; being then both the walls of the path, as a channel; it is also and more importantly, the energy which fills this vein.

    One might well compare both the energy and the vein, to the subjective and objective nature of God consciousness. If we call this globally "bhakti" we are describing any act or practis which helps to channel or guide spiritual energy. It would be a mistake though to assume that either the practice with out the energy of love is bhakti, or that the love without the practices (insanity, sanity meaning cleanliness; misguided) will be fruitful; In some cases perhaps, but this would be quite dangerous for the aspirant. Your spiritual practis should help you to remember where you were, in what is quite reasonably described as; a relative field, that of consciousness.

    Kind regards.
    Last edited by Mana; 10 May 2014 at 12:18 AM.

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