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Thread: The name Hindu for the people and the country--not a Hindu name?

  1. #21
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    Re: The name Hindu for the people and the country--not a Hindu name?

    The word Hindu did not appear in the scriptures, as distinctions among communities were not necessary. It only became necessary after the 11th century with the establishment of Islamic rule in India. As religions and communities mushroomed, the words Indu (Hindu) for the people and Industhan (Hindusthan) for their land came in vogue.

    This is what I believe about absence of Hindu word in ancient scriptures . I'm feeling amazing by knowing that my view is exactly coinciding with Patel's view .

    I really when European/western scholars make a public stunt saying hindu word is not an ancient word and so Hindu dharma is also not ancient and it's just 800 years old . For proving this they have created a new word 'Vedic Age ' and many fake theories . But the fact is that there was never a Vedic age at all . These so called Historians are intentionally making number of false theories like Aryan Invasion , Sanskrit is derived language from PIE etc . Theirs all these hard works are just to alter Hindu's million years of richest history and making it just 800 years old and to prove Hinduism came after Christianity . Nothing else other than this in their minds , even some are paid by christian missionaries , one of them Romila Thapar and many western history scholars .

    What is there in just Name ? Name can not ever tell you the history . Every Hindu knows that there was never a name for our Dharma . It was being called as just Dharma . Because Hindu scriptures uses ONLY dharma word to denote religion of Hindus ( Bramhana-kshatriya-vaishya-shudra Varnas ) .

    At ancient times before muslim invasion , there was no any need for Hindu word or any other word . At that time people were identifying themselves just by Varna . However when Mlecchas ( Caste-less ) invaded Aryans ( Hindus ) , then the words like Hindu , mleccha , Yavanas came into existence in Hindu communities . Hindus themselves starting calling themselves as Hindus to distinguish people of four Varnas from caste-less people who invaded land of Aryans .

    I think the most authentic origin of Hindu is definitely from Agama and Puranas . Hindus used Hindu word to separate out Mlecchas from pious people of four Varnas .


    Brihaspati Agama says:
    himAlayaM samArabhya yAvadindu sarovaram |
    taM devanirmitaM desha hindusthAnaM prachakShate ||

    "Starting from Himalaya up to Indu waters is this God-created country Hindustan."


    Birhannaradi Purana in Hoshiarpur (Punjab)[1] which contained the verse:

    Himalayam samarabhya yavat bindusarovaram
    Hindusthanamiti qyatan hi antaraksha-rayogatah


    "The country between Himalayas and Bindu Sarovar (Cape Commorin Sea) is Hindusthan derived by combining the first letter 'Hi' of Himalayas and the last compound letter 'ndu' of the word Bindu."


    From VishNu Purana, 2.3.1:

    Uttaram yat samudrasya, Himadreschaiva dakshinam |
    Varsham tad Bharatam nama Bharati yatra santatih ||


    "Bharat is the name of country situated to the north of the sea and south of the Himalayas and its progeny is known as Bharati."


    One shoudn't get misunderstood here . This verse is talking about persons whose Homeland is BharataVarsha , not about foreigners . Besides before muslim invasion , there was not a single mleccha in Aryavarta ( India ) and this defination was written long before muslim's invasion . So Hindu is not only geographical definition . It has relation with Dharma also .

    Besides VedaVyasa says in Bhavishya Purana " Mlecchas will invade land of aryas ( Hindus ) and loot them and will try to destroy dharma . After that BharataVarsha will become a country of mixed races like aryas ( Hindus ) and mlecchas. Mleccha's population will get increased throughout the world and Even in BharataVarsha . "
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 20 March 2014 at 03:33 AM.
    Hari On!

  2. #22

    Re: The name Hindu for the people and the country--not a Hindu name?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    It's all in the name, bro. All in the name. Kem cho status.
    Actually crossed my mind, so I double checked the name
    BTW, thank you a thousand-fold, KT, for these extremely informative and contributive posts.
    No, no. In fact there is a mountain out there, and here we have like pointing to a few pebbles only so far. Laziness, incompetency, I suppose. I hope you and Jaskaran (he's at it, bet), and also others, can add something, in time, here: relevant, tangible or questioning.

    KT


    P.S.: sisnadevA have made the world a sick place, gotta say.
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  3. #23

    Re: The name Hindu for the people and the country--not a Hindu name?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    Actually crossed my mind, so I double checked the name

    No, no. In fact there is a mountain out there, and here we have like pointing to a few pebbles only so far. Laziness, incompetency, I suppose. I hope you and Jaskaran (he's at it, bet), and also others, can add something, in time, here: relevant, tangible or questioning.
    Namaste,

    I hope I can add something contributive soon. I'm still reading over your sources and going through the mountain out there. There are a lot of valuable sources. But, once again, thank you for bringing one or two of them to light.
    Last edited by Sudas Paijavana; 21 March 2014 at 07:28 AM.

  4. #24
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    Re: The name Hindu for the people and the country--not a Hindu name?

    Namaste

    I may be the "last man standing" when it comes to using the word Hindu and Hinduism as a catch-all for the original religion, and I will continue to call myself a Hindu probably to my death.

    But a side note I thought I would mention is, and it is simply to bring up an observation, many, many Saivas I have noticed are often calling themself Saiva instead of Hindu. The Vaisnavas and especially Gaudiyas have been doing the same for a very long time here in America, since the last many decades they do not say "I am a Hindu" but rather "I am a Vaishnava" (or "Gaudiya Vaishnava" and so on).

    Now I notice Saivas in America be they of Euro or Indian origin or other who may have in the past said "I am a Hindu" rather say "I am a Saiva". This is simply an observation, not taking sides.

    With each decade, Americans understand more and more Sanskrit words, understand different Hindu terms, paths, sects and so on. While saying "Hindu" in the past would be familiar but not "Saiva", yet now many Americans know the word Saiva or Shaiva now, they "see it in terms of a religion, and Shiva", and the same is true of Vaishnava, they know the word Vedic as well.

    Mother India is full of tirthas. So that is a vital reason why, when Americans hear the word Hindu, they see Hindustan or land of Hindus as geographic, viz India. The link between India and religion, e,g. Hinduism, is that the tirthas are found. Meaning, for example, Ganga Maa.

    Ganga Maa or Ganges River is, to countless Americans, Hinduism. They hear Hindu, they think Ganges River. They think Surya the sun rising over Ganges, and devotees and holy one's dipping in the Ganga with a big Sun overhead.

    This may in part be poetic vision, but I am telling you the way many think. To them, Hinduism is not a people but a place, they think Ganga, or Vrindavan, or Kashi, and so on.

    A "Hindu" to them is someone who venerates such tirthas and the Devatas. Despite all the efforts of Advaitans to put in place a different vision then this, most Americans think Hinduism as this, the Ganga, the Devatas Siva, Vishnu, Brahma, and Mother Goddess. They see a place, India.

    But now they know more words, such as Vedic, Vaishnava, Shaiva. But even knowing these words, they "see India".

    Just saying.

    Om Namah Sivaya

  5. #25

    Re: The name Hindu for the people and the country--not a Hindu name?

    Namaste,

    Dharma (religious), Hindu (cultural), Indian (political) -- these three words are synonymous to me, but then I should count myself as an endangered species.

    Frankly, I am not concerned about how the non-Indian or also the non-Hindu people can perceive what Dharma is to them if they are into it.

    But let us see, anyway.

    The "directory", apparently, is:

    Indian > Hindu > Dharma

    Here I am taking the words according to their present meaning (so, "Hindu" is cultural, and "Indian" is political, even though both derive from the same word Indu).

    Or, let us say:

    Indian-Hindu-Dharma

    Today it has already suffered ellipsis and we have:
    Hindu-Dharma

    And tomorrow, devoid of the cultural assets, the bindi and the sari, it will be:
    Dharma

    This can be the western route. By that time, to counterbalance that, there will be no India left.

    I say so based on pure observation. The story on this end of spectrum is going on like this:

    Indian-Hindu-Dharma
    Indian-Hindu
    Indian

    -nil-

    Already we are into the phase in India where Hindu word has been orchestrated. Indians today fear calling themselves Hindu, or even accept that their ancestors were Hindu.

    It is already into the last phase where the idea of India is in peril. Foreigners and Indian intellectuals (not to forget the immigrants)have joined a chorus: "there never was an India" (la-la-..background music).

    Yet, pick any Indian among the billions of them, and run a narco on him/her, you will hear Vedic rica-s straight coming one after one from the mouth.

    *But, again, that one is from the third innermost, obsolete, layer i.e. Dharma.



    KT

    P.S.:
    The idea "India" received a major setback during the mass exodus of thousands of "educated Indians" especially during the nineties, the consequences of which will be most readily visible in the next twenty-five years.
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  6. #26
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    Re: The name Hindu for the people and the country--not a Hindu name?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    Namaste

    I may be the "last man standing" when it comes to using the word Hindu and Hinduism as a catch-all for the original religion, and I will continue to call myself a Hindu probably to my death.
    Vannakkam: I am with you.

    Despite the history, it's what we have today, and what works. Try using google maps and searching for 'Vaishnava temple' or 'Sanatana Dharma temples'. Still I am glad the west is developing a greater knowledge of the specific sects, because it makes for a much better understanding all around.

    Aum Namasivaya

  7. #27
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    Re: The name Hindu for the people and the country--not a Hindu name?

    Thanks K T, Sudas, Sai Devo and others who have shared very valuable information.

    It will take sometime before I understand completely about the history of the word Hindu and also to get rid of my aversion for the word Hindu or Hindustan.

    However this post present a starting point.

    It will be helpful if some references of the word Hindu and not Indu from our ancient text is provided. I am interested to know whether Hindu is a Persian way (my assumption) of referring Indu.

    I would like to be wrong in my assumption but if it is not the case then we are still carrying the slavery baggage. So whom ever working on it kindly add this into your list of treasure hunt.
    Anirudh...

  8. #28

    Re: The name Hindu for the people and the country--not a Hindu name?

    Namaste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    It will be helpful if some references of the word Hindu and not Indu from our ancient text is provided. I am interested to know whether Hindu is a Persian way (my assumption) of referring Indu.
    Hindu is originally a Persian way of referring Indu. And the texts that have been quoted in this thread as references to the word Hindu, in my opinion merely express their acceptance of the term.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    I would like to be wrong in my assumption but if it is not the case then we are still carrying the slavery baggage. So whom ever working on it kindly add this into your list of treasure hunt.
    The Persians (pArsis) were a people just like us. Zoroastrianism (the religion of pArsis) and Vedanta (of us) are nothing but siblings having the Vedic Dharma as their common Father and Mother.
    "Hindu" is given to us by the Zoros (pArsis) who were our brothers in every sense of the word. We can as well say, our elder brothers, because it is in the Persian branch that we first see the dawn of the post-Vedic age.

    Let us dwell a bit here, and look deeper.

    It is commonly known that in Zoroastrian we have As(h)ura-s as the divine powers and daiva-s (Deva-s) are their enemies, whereas in today's Hinduism we have Deva-s (Sura-s) as divine gods and Asura-s as their antitheses the dark powers.

    Popularly this is perceived as a sign of opposition and bad blood between the two people. But in eyes of the learned this is not true. Because, firstly, in Veda both Asura-s and Sura-s (Deva-s) are gods; the same god can be called Deva in one place and Asura in another- this is in keep with the Vedic understanding that a Deva can be perceived in either ways: as in harmony (like sura-s in music theory), or as in isolation (and thus Asura) when the Deva overshadows every other Deva .

    So, even as the Hindus in the Kaliyuga overemphasised the correctness of Harmony (but still remembered the Asura part at least in the spirit, when praising many of their deities as supreme in their own contexts), the Zoros on the other hand underpinned the necessity, from moral point of view, of separating goodness from evil, and therefore veered towards the Asuric powers in order to completely overshadow and vanquish Evil.
    In a nutshell, pArsis were not our enemies, they were at the worst only the first ones to have started on a post Vedic journey from the original Vedic Dharma. In fact, Indians of that time stood by the Vedic Dharma (they still do, at least in name) and repelled the yet-to-be pArsis from the land in what is known as The Battle Of Ten Kings (dasa-rajanya-yuddha) - a battle far greater than even the MahabhArata in import and in scale - where the great Hindu ancestor Sudas Paijavana (think of him as a dhoti-clad Justice Dredd, lol) led from the side of Dharma and won it for us even against great odds.

    But, again, this has to be seen (as is in the Veda, in fact) a war fought among brothers, among Aryans, much like in the Mahabharata.

    I can standing on the Mount Everest proudly proclaim the pArsis as my brothers.

    And they have given us "Hindu". We both people were on the same path down streams starting from the Vedic age. There is a theory that says Hindu could very well have origin in India itself. Basically, it is the science of sound changes, and it is found that these laws are independent of peoples.

    For example, the Vedic "r" sound has become "l" sound (e.g. raghu -> laghu, so on) in both the classical Sanskrit (and hence Hindi) as well as in the western IE languages. So the sound changes have been similar even though there was no communication between the eastern (classical Sanskrit) and the western IE languages. Let me give a simple yet effective explanation of this.

    Mothers are the teachers of language to their children. Sometimes it is found that the children are having difficulty in spelling certain sounds. Mothers, being the empathetic creature that they are, tend to use feedback and in this way a language changes its course naturally over the time.

    In the very start, however, when Sanskrit was being discovered by Hindus, both fathers and mothers played the role of teacher, the former had a dominant role in the early days but the latter took over the charge after that.

    Reverting to Indu from Hindu will of itself happen when reverting to Sanskrit from Hindi is accomplished. Sanskrit is lurking there.. its DNA has deep truths (that can literally drive one mad), but that will take some time to unfold if that happens.

    Today, unfortunately, there are no pArsis left, except those who came back to India to avoid persecution in Iran. And the Iranians today identify themselves as - you know what- fArsis (f = p+h) because is this what their Arab victors called them!

    Sounds funny, but what people in ignorance impute to Indu-Hindu is actually in reality applicable on the very supposed "perpetrators" as in pArsi-fArsi.

    No fun/ pun intended
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  9. #29
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    Re: The name Hindu for the people and the country--not a Hindu name?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    Thanks K T, Sudas, Sai Devo and others who have shared very valuable information.

    It will take sometime before I understand completely about the history of the word Hindu and also to get rid of my aversion for the word Hindu or Hindustan.

    However this post present a starting point.

    It will be helpful if some references of the word Hindu and not Indu from our ancient text is provided. I am interested to know whether Hindu is a Persian way (my assumption) of referring Indu.

    I would like to be wrong in my assumption but if it is not the case then we are still carrying the slavery baggage. So whom ever working on it kindly add this into your list of treasure hunt.
    namaste,
    I just did some research and found a page which suggests that you apparently may not be completely incorrect in your assumptions.
    This is how the mleccha invaders (Turks, Persians, etc.) used the term Hindu:

    Comparing to shani: "In astrology the dark and inauspicious planet Saturn is frequently called the Hindu of the Firmament."

    Calling ugly, mean, etc.: "In contrast to this, the Hindu is “ugly, mean and blackish” (Schimmel, 1974, p. 244), and even cunning (cf., e.g., Hāfeẓ, Divān, no. 395, 1. 5: ḥilat-e Hendu)."

    Considering Hindus to be slaves: "But the Indian is above all the slave; saying that one is someone’s "Hindu” is a strong expression of devotion, especially in love."

    Source:http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/hindu
    Edit: Apparently, the other page isn't working, try this: http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...articles/hindu
    Last edited by Jaskaran Singh; 27 March 2014 at 02:09 AM.
    படைபோர் புக்கு முழங்கும்அப் பாஞ்சசன்னியமும் பல்லாண்டே
    May your pA~nchajanya shankha which reverberates on the battlefield, last thousands upon thousands of years...
    http://archives.mirroroftomorrow.org...anchajanya.jpg

  10. #30
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    Re: The name Hindu for the people and the country--not a Hindu name?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    The Battle Of Ten Kings (dasa-rajanya-yuddha) - a battle far greater than even the MahabhArata in import and in scale - where the great Hindu ancestor Sudas Paijavana (think of him as a dhoti-clad Justice Dredd, lol) led from the side of Dharma and won it for us even against great odds.
    praNAm,
    Not really...
    kurukShetra army (18 akShauhiNI-s, or around 2,755,620 people)
    etayA saMkhyayAhyAsan kurupANDavasenayoH
    akShauhiNyo dvijashreShThAH piNDenAShTAdashaiva tAH||1.2.24||

    dAsharAj~na army (6,666 people)-
    ní gavyávó anavo druhyávashca ShaShTíH shatÁ suSupuH SháTsahásrA
    ShaShTír vIrÁso ádhi SháDduvoyú víshvédíndrasya vIryÀ kRtÁni||7.18.14|||
    Last edited by Jaskaran Singh; 28 March 2014 at 08:09 PM.
    படைபோர் புக்கு முழங்கும்அப் பாஞ்சசன்னியமும் பல்லாண்டே
    May your pA~nchajanya shankha which reverberates on the battlefield, last thousands upon thousands of years...
    http://archives.mirroroftomorrow.org...anchajanya.jpg

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