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Thread: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

  1. #11
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    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Vannakkam: Indeed, there are two 'I's here. The one, often termed the Self, cannot suffer, for it is beyond suffering.

    The other, often termed the ego, has a choice. It can accept it as karma, fulling recognising that on some level, it is the former, the Self. Or ... it can whine and complain in immature fashion so that spouse, friends etc. all excuse themselves from the room of despair for a breath of fresh air.

    For this embodies jiva, it's more a matter of accepting suffering, the dues from karma, like paying taxes, rather than incessant whining. Some days are harder than others.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaste Eric,

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric11235 View Post
    Yesterday I had a pretty unpleasant day, rains all day, rejection and just unpleasantness in general. This made me all sad.
    There are three things which are causing this sadness. My hold on "I" (i.e. ego which separates me from this world) and this "I" getting involved with whatever is happening around. In fact, the cause of this sadness is trivial ... "rains". See, "Rain" by itself is neutral. It cannot cause happiness or sadness. So, what is connecting this incidence with rise of sadness in my mind ? It is "impressions gathered in the past" or samskaar.

    Absence of any of the three would be able to avoid arising of "sadness". If "I" is absent i.e. merged into infinite Consciousness ... then there is no question of any suffering. If "I" is there but is detached from the event ... i.e. may be it is involved in something pleasant then also the rain would not create this sadness. Again, if there are no past impressions associated with rains which cause sadness, then also, there would be no sadness.

    The external events caused me to suffer and I felt bad thereby.

    However, I let myself feel the sadness and pain of these things with the mindset that sadness and pain are a glorious gift to man, something that is unavoidable and beautiful. And because of that I was able to smile through occasional tears. I knew that what happened hurt me, whether I acknowledged it or not.
    How can you enjoy sadness and pain, dear ? If that is so, then sadness is no sadness and pain is no pain. You are trying to change the definition. Hindu teaching is that suffering is due to attachment and because mind is not trained to feel equanimity in all circumstances. If you want to enjoy sadness and pain, sadness and pain get cognizance and thereby get strength whereas these can be outrightly denied in this case. There is rains ... so what ? I am happy. I cannot go out in rain ... so what ? I can be happy inside house. Why should I feel hurt when the body or mind is hurt ? I can separate myself from my body-mind entity. I am not this body and I am not this mind. I am happy all the time and no external circumstances can affect me. .... Such a resolve can guarantee freedom from sufferings.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #13
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    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaste Eric,

    I am sure you are trying to communicate something to us, but words keep getting in the way. Perhaps with time we will grow and be at the same wavelength as you to comprehend your thoughts better. So, don't be discouraged to bring out all that you feel.

    Pranam.

  4. #14
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    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Hello everybody,

    Thank you for the myriad views you all bring to the table, it is always a pleasure to hear the varying thoughts that can be aroused by mentions of these things.

    Believer, what you're saying rings true, there is this thought that I wish I could speak simply, but to do so would require something beyond words.

    Even though everything is one, Jiva still operates under the assumption of separateness, the realization of oneness does not necessarily preclude this. Only upon attainment of Moksha will oneness become absolute truth.

    When I say I relish in my pain, that does not mean the pain is something to be enjoyed, it is a confusing and paradoxical thing. I feel it as pain, but I also see ahead as it pertains to my growth as a person (on this plane) and therefore it does not consume me. Seeing past the illusion of pain and realizing the pain at the same time is ultimately the paradox I am trying to convey.

    While on this plane of reality we must deal with things not to our liking, when these things happen sometimes we'll think "This is terrible" or "Why is this happening to me" or "This is cruel" and while true on this plane, if we keep in mind an ideal of pain leading to growth, then perhaps we can let ourselves experience the pain and suffering but not be damaged by it so severely that we are hindered by it.

    Again the thoughts make sense, sometimes the words do not, words are on some level too concrete to adequately describe the full meaning of what I am trying to communicate.

    As Sufjan Stevens said "Words are Futile Devices"

    That probably muddies things up a touch more than elucidating, but perrhaps further discussion will shed further light.

    Namaste

  5. #15

    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaste Eric,


    Words aside, you are quite right what is normally seen as pain and suffering especially in this yuga, of the mind and body is just a state of awareness.One must always aspire to merge with the divine as everything else is transient in nature.One can stumble/Find true awareness while bieng pushed to extream conditions/when the body goes into some sort of shock as it helps the jiva to free thyself from attachment..Is one right in interpreting your post as the above,please correct and forgive one if its not.

    Ohm Namah Shivayah.

  6. #16
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    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaskar Eric ji,

    Thank you for this thread, it is one that provokes good thought.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric11235 View Post
    Again the thoughts make sense, sometimes the words do not, words are on some level too concrete to adequately describe the full meaning of what I am trying to communicate.

    As Sufjan Stevens said "Words are Futile Devices"

    That probably muddies things up a touch more than elucidating, but perrhaps further discussion will shed further light.
    I believe I understand you, and if so I agree. I suspect the issue is in the words being used to convey the ideas, as well. Language can often be so imprecise and confusing as it is often so reliant on subjective perception of definitions and use. That said, I thought I might add my own perception and experience to the discussion.

    The word 'Suffering' in and of itself often carries a negative connotation regardless of the culture looking at it. It is one half of a whole, one of the poles in a dual concept. Its opposite is pleasure or joy on a visceral level. Suffering can also help to break down the ego, and can be used as a way to learn to tune out the awareness of the body.

    This seeming duality is what our birth personalities perceive when we look through the senses of material form and bonds. On this level the duality does exist and is important because without opposing opposites to define each other, there could be no growth. One cannot know pain without pleasure, light without dark, depression without joy, and vice-verse. You example is very apt, when one experiences suffering one is motivated to learn grow in order to not experience that again but experience the opposite more often instead. One doesn't know they are suffering if they cannot or have never experienced joy or pleasure. To me, the trap here is that the opposite of 'Suffering' is also illusory in that it is only the other half of the learning process. Both are equally important for growth and are as important as their opposites, but they are parts of a whole that are bound in this material world.

    All seeming dualities in the subjective Material Universe, when observed from a higher, objective view, are parts of a whole. Embracing 'Suffering', is then imprecise because it's only half of the process. One must embrace the whole, Suffering and Joy, and realize they are non-different from each other in the highest sense. Let's call this whole, then, 'Experience'. In embracing 'Experience' in this way, one may then begin to learn how to grow through it without being so powerfully and immediately affected by one half of it or the other.

    For me, the first stage of this process of 'awareness of wholeness' does indeed mean that when 'you, the body' is affected by one half of experience 'you' can often find 'yourself' experiencing the other half at the same time. Sadness can indeed trigger happiness, pain can trigger pleasure, one sense can trigger another. There have been times recently that I have been so happy I have found I was crying and didn't even know it. This is called Synesthesia. I understand this as a step or stage, and also another obstacle or lesson. In my current understanding, true Bliss in Realization is not really involved in the processes of 'Experience' at all.

    Bhakti was mentioned at the beginning of the thread. To me, Bhakti allows the growing soul to begin to experience something similar to the Bliss of Realization. I feel it is the closest thing to that Bliss that an Unrealized soul can experience. The more we surrender to it, the stronger it becomes, the more it fills us and nullifies suffering. In this way Bhakti drives our growth to even higher and new levels of awareness.

    There was a time I, veiled in ignorance, thought the idea that 'surrendering' troubles, desire and suffering to God or Bliss and they would be alleviated was silly and weakminded. I can be incredibly stubborn and I tend towards struggling against everything. I am learning the meaning of surrender through Bhakti, which helps me to step back from 'Experience', as I define it above.

    ~Pranams
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

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    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté



    A man talking to śrī nisargadatta maharāj said, ' I would have to admit that throughout my life I am continuously experiencing suffering.'
    Śrī nisargadatta maharāj's reply: No this is not true. You are not experiencing suffering, you are suffering your experiencing.

    If one comprehends this then this notion of suffering is properly framed. How does one come to understand this? It is the notion of who really is the sufferer. Once this is known the proper frame of reference is set.


    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #18

    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanandinii View Post
    Bhakti was mentioned at the beginning of the thread. To me, Bhakti allows the growing soul to begin to experience something similar to the Bliss of Realization. I feel it is the closest thing to that Bliss that an Unrealized soul can experience. The more we surrender to it, the stronger it becomes, the more it fills us and nullifies suffering. In this way Bhakti drives our growth to even higher and new levels of awareness.
    So I disagree very slightly, putting Bhakti as the result of freedom; When one sees the divine in every thing; all that resides is Bhakti, the soul is as Eric has stated, free from all bonds.

    The swaying or flux of our emotions, our emotional state, are caused by the gunas play amongst the tattva, realization that this is that; is knowledge or rather awareness of: the beating heart of śiva.
    How do you feel suffering, if you can see that it is directly caused by your own desires?
    This does not remove the desires themselves, awareness does that; as ensemble changes the life's path to one of less suffering, or other ...

    We might say that suffering is our soul hitting the walls of our path of least resistance; with that said, the toughened soul is capable of pushing harder against the walls, and is wise enough through proxy to do so with awareness.

    Kind regards.
    Last edited by Mana; 07 April 2014 at 01:01 PM.

  9. #19
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    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaskar Mana ji,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    So I disagree very slightly, putting Bhakti as the result of freedom; When one sees the divine in every thing; all that resides is Bhakti, the soul is as Eric has stated, free from all bonds.

    The swaying or flux of our emotions, our emotional state, are caused by the gunas play amongst the tattva, realization that this is that; is knowledge or rather awareness of: the beating heart of śiva.
    How do you feel suffering, if you can see that it is directly caused by your own desires?
    This does not remove the desires themselves, awareness does that; as ensemble changes the life's path to one of less suffering, or other ...

    We might say that suffering is our soul hitting the walls of our path of least resistance; with that said, the toughened soul is capable of pushing harder against the walls, and is wise enough through proxy to do so with awareness.
    Thank you for these observations. I have been thinking about them and I feel that we agree except on one point. If Bhakti is the result of Freedom or Realization, and Freedom is Realizing and honoring God in every single thing and person, feeling only love, then why have I not had Bhakti till now and am not Realized despite feeling Bhakti?

    I never had Bhakti before, but I have it now and it's growing as I nurture it. I think it will lead to Realization, it's part of the path to Realization. I think that the average person cannot reach Realization without it, or it would be incredibly difficult.

    Please forgive and elaborate if I am misunderstanding.

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  10. #20

    Re: The Importance of Embracing Vicissitudes

    Namaste Aanandinii,

    Realize that you are at the reigns of a chariot; that you are not in control but are simply a host and a driver, as such why would you need to achieve any goal?
    In surrender; a harmony within the tattva can be found.

    Kind regards.

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