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Thread: Who Can Learn the Veda's

  1. #21
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda View Post
    So when the local alien life decides to finally show up which caste will they be put into? Untouchable? **** there goes the anal probes

    Humans have their heads stuck up their asses, as far as history has been remembered...so-called Hindus have always tried to be better than the standard of self-righteousness so I fail to see how this one lousy meme has become so prominent in India, especially - since the place is actually considered to be a very dirty and poverty stricken nation by most individuals living in the United States - obviously this caste system is not working and never really did work outside of a small village! We can't let holy books ruin our lives, obviously there are great intelligences out there - for example, Krsna didn't plop out of the sky as a scroll, he was born to a woman and I would prefer to take my advice from modern man on this subject rather than dusty texts that will fall apart - their source is far more appealing to me at this point.

    Nothing's perfect.

    I live in Memphis, Tennessee, USA, it is the birthplace of the civil rights movement. There was the reflection of caste in the white/black discrimination laws. After the movement occurred the rest of the US caught on and never looked back on its racist past, however something congealed here in Memphis itself that is a little ugly to see - whites moved out of Memphis causing a rise in the black percentage of the population. Since blacks at the time were mostly all poor and rather still persecuted, when the whites took away the wealth it set the city back a few decades and is just now rising again to its former splendor. The fact of the matter is it's now run by blacks and is just as nice as its previous state, however it goes to show you that United We Stand, Divided We Fall is really not just another soundbyte - it is the quality by which we can judge whether a nation or movement will fail or rise to stardom.

    The universe has its own agenda though, that's for sure...what will survive of Hinduism will survive only because it is allowed. I believe we can all take some part in that but ultimately it is out of our hands, because some dummies will never learn until they die a few thousand times...
    "Most individuals in the United States" are untouchables as well. Did you know that? What is your ancestry? Trace it far back and you will see that most of these people in the US have descended from the dregs of Europe; barbarians and murderers.

    Secondly, you have no clue about the 'caste system' or Varnashrama Dharma. It is ONLY because of Varnashrama Dharma, which Gandhi (IMO) supported, that Hinduism still exists whereas ALL other ancient civilizations have vanished! It will NEVER be destroyed and it is the backbone of India.

    Furthermore, to compare Varnashrama Dharma to the movement of the blacks in the US is blasphemous. VD is NOT based on skin color! If it was, Michael Jackson would be the greatest Aryan (noble person) on the planet! He is certainly not and neither is any westerner! I have mentioned several times that an Aryan is one of NOBLE qualities and background! 100% of westerners are untouchables! Did you know that? Too bad eurocentric idiots, I mean 'scholars' thought that the caste system arose through a fantasy they made up called Aryan Invasion Theory where fair-skinned people (hahah) subjugated dark-skinned people!

    VD has been beaten to death at HDF so do some research before blabbering something!

    And to the respected members of HDF (Yajvan, Atanu, Satay, Saidevo et al.) I just wanted to let you know I am SICK & TIRED of these silly westerners coming on here and just slandering India and her civilization; past & present. It is time WE HINDUS unite and fight back (through education and dialogue ).
    Last edited by satay; 28 January 2009 at 11:07 PM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    We can't let holy books ruin our lives, obviously there are great intelligences out there - for example, Krsna didn't plop out of the sky as a scroll, he was born to a woman and I would prefer to take my advice from modern man on this subject rather than dusty texts that will fall apart - their source is far more appealing to me at this point.

    Nothing's perfect.
    Namaste Naomi,

    I relish your angrezi and also your wisdom. Please allow me to state a few points for your consideration. This is my understanding and no one needs to accept these.

    Caste as 'water tight birth determined class' and 'the hierarchy' is wrong and possibly has history of motivated imposition. Such differences in society are exploited everywhere and it is not specific to Hinduism.

    Varna, OTOH, states a fact that individuals are born for different functions, almost similarly as a chair and a table have different functions though both are made of wood. The carpenter decided on which wood will be chair and which wood will be table.

    Hinduism teaches that Brahman is the material as well as the causative. Also, the created beings cannot be truly different from the beginning material -- that is Brahman. There is no cause for any social agony based on the knowledge of varna.

    The agony comes from exploitation and exploitation is not due to varna but due to inherent cruel tinge in us.


    ...what will survive of Hinduism will survive only because it is allowed. I believe we can all take some part in that but ultimately it is out of our hands, because some dummies will never learn until they die a few thousand times...
    That is true. What is true will ever be allowed.

    - for example, Krsna didn't plop out of the sky as a scroll, he was born to a woman and I would prefer to take my advice from modern man on this subject rather than dusty texts that will fall apart - their source is far more appealing to me at this point.
    Again what you say is reasonable but not fully.

    Many wise men take their dose of wisdom from Gita. What I say here is drawn from your statement that "what will survive will survive".

    Best Wishes.

    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 29 January 2009 at 05:41 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #23
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Namaste participants.

    I think TatTvamAsi's outburst against Naomi Ningishzidda's earlier post that smacked of ignorance expressed in vulgar language has some valid points. As TTA has rightly pointed out:

    • the Hindu varNa and caste system as it was created, as it existed and exists now is a very complex and emotional subject that is certainly beyond the grasp of a westerner, specially when he/she refuses to admit that any prejudicial treatment among the Indian castes is the same as that prevailing in the class-conscious West.

    • Unlike the ancient Hindu civilization and religion, the origin and strife for supremacy of most Western civilizations and the western religions is certainly steeped in barbarism and blood. Even in the pre-European, ancient civilizations of Egypt, Greece and Rome, slavery of humans was practiced, which was never the case in the Hindu civilization.

    • The Blacks may be a liberated lot today in the U.S. with their representative at the Presidetial helm, but they are still portrayed in the Hollywood movies as vulgar, barbaric and with criminal propensities more than their White counterparts. The ghetto they live are as dirty and filty as the huts and its surroundings in India. Although many Blacks have made it to good positions in the society and politics, the others among them certainly don't lead a life that is on pair with that of their White counterparts. This is my impression, which I think is mostly correct.

    Learning Vedas

    All the hullabaloo about allowing everyone to learn Vedas is meaningless, empty talk. If a Hindu Dalit or a non-Brahmin wants to learn or study Vedas, who prevents him/her from doing it? The Brahmins? The Hindu Gurus? No. The truth is that anyone today can with his/her own self-efforts learn and study the Vedas as many Westerners have done, but only at their own initiative. Vedas are no longer an area of just oral transmission today: they are published in their original scriptures and translated in other languages. They are part of the Indian and Western research, which are not done by just Brahmins.

    However, as TatTvamAsi has rightly pointed out in an earlier post with the analogy of academic discipline, any Tom, Dick and Harry cannot demand to be admitted into the institutions of Vedic teaching, just because they do not belong to the brAhmaNa varNa. In fact, neither the Dalits nor the non-brahmins demand it, only the politicians make all the hue and cry in India, specially in Tamilnadu.

    Vedas are sRuti (heard) as everyone knows and were discovered by the Rishis. They classified the Vedas into parts that deal with the rituals (karma kANDa) and those that deal with the knowledge of Brahman (jnAna kANDa)--the Upanishads. They entrusted the perpetuation of the karma kANDa only to the brAhmaNa varna because of the rigours involved in the performance of the rituals and the correct pronunciation of the mantras. And the brahmins through their family trees have kept the tradition of oral transmission of the Vedas through millennia, preserving their integrity, and this oral tradition continues to this day.

    The Rishis, of course, threw open the knowledge of the Upanishads to everyone--anyone who proves eligible for it. And this tradition is also continuing in India to this day. In today's scenario, Vedic schools are established by brahmin institutions and they admit only brahmin students (only those who are inclined towards it): there is nothing wrong in it. Most Hindu religious institutions (some of them very popular like the establishments of Bhagavan Sathya Sai Baba. the Shaivite MaThams in Tamilnadu, and Mata Amritananda Mayi to name a few) are not headed by brahmins but still they prefer Vedic chanting and performance of Vedic rituals only by the brahmin community. This has been the case throughout the Hindu history and there is no need that things should change in the life of stark materialism today.

    Let us not therefore, confuse between learning Vedas and practising Vedas for the purpose of chanting and conducting Vedic rituals. We are not more enlightened than our Rishis, so the present arrangement should continue. The reality in India today is that there is no bar on any Satyakama to seek a guru that suits him and learn the Upanishads and progress in his Self-Realization path.

    However, this is Kali Yuga, and it is predicted that brahmins will become more and more materialistic and turn away from the Vedas and there will be total confusion endangering the survival of Vedic chanting. For details, check http://www.hinduism.co.za/kaliyuga.htm.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  4. #24
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Namaste Yajvan.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    ...let me ask your opinion here. When you say Brahmins... are you suggesting only the Brahmin by birth by DNA, or the Brahmin identified by thoughts, deeds and actions?
    Kanchi Paramacharya gives an elaborate discourse on the history, nature and meaning of the caste and varNa. He firmly says that a person's caste and varNa are decided on birth, not on action or guNa, and this is what Sri Krishna means in the Bhagavad Gita. For details, check this and other allied links:

    Caste according to the Vedas and the Gita
    http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap2.htm
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  5. #25

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste Yajvan.



    Kanchi Paramacharya gives an elaborate discourse on the history, nature and meaning of the caste and varNa. He firmly says that a person's caste and varNa are decided on birth, not on action or guNa, and this is what Sri Krishna means in the Bhagavad Gita. For details, check this and other allied links:

    Caste according to the Vedas and the Gita
    http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap2.htm
    Caste then would be more like race, right? If so, in what way is this different from racism? A black person cannot change his race, going by Kanchi Seer's idea, neither can a shudra. Isn't this unfair?

  6. #26

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste participants.

    the Hindu varNa and caste system as it was created, as it existed and exists now is a very complex and emotional subject that is certainly beyond the grasp of a westerner, specially when he/she refuses to admit that any prejudicial treatment among the Indian castes is the same as that prevailing in the class-conscious West.
    Just because caste can be equated to class, it doesn't make either of them right. One can say they're both wrong, and the very system is aimed at oppressing poor people.

    Unlike the ancient Hindu civilization and religion, the origin and strife for supremacy of most Western civilizations and the western religions is certainly steeped in barbarism and blood. Even in the pre-European, ancient civilizations of Egypt, Greece and Rome, slavery of humans was practiced, which was never the case in the Hindu civilization.
    Kings in India were fighting and killing each other all the time. There's no difference between Indians and westerners in this respect, if at all there's any, westerners did this globally, whereas Indians were local.


    The Blacks may be a liberated lot today in the U.S. with their representative at the Presidetial helm, but they are still portrayed in the Hollywood movies as vulgar, barbaric and with criminal propensities more than their White counterparts. The ghetto they live are as dirty and filty as the huts and its surroundings in India. Although many Blacks have made it to good positions in the society and politics, the others among them certainly don't lead a life that is on pair with that of their White counterparts. This is my impression, which I think is mostly correct.
    Maybe so, but even the poorest Black is better off than a dalit in India.

    However, as TatTvamAsi has rightly pointed out in an earlier post with the analogy of academic discipline, any Tom, Dick and Harry cannot demand to be admitted into the institutions of Vedic teaching, just because they do not belong to the brAhmaNa varNa.
    All this is completely irrelevant in the 21st century. We must give up traditions which curtail our progress, and instead of focus on the important aspects of the Hindu religion alone, namely studying, meditation, yoga etc. Else, Hinduism will appear just as intolerant as Islam.

  7. #27
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~

    Namast

    I have re-read many of the posts here. As I have little more to add, I see just one common theme

    What you do (in life) is different then who you are (sattā ).

    'Doing ' in life is for a comfortable ride as possible - the maximum you can contribute to your well being at the same time contributing to the society as a whole. That is, doing what one is most apt to do. This to me is the core of varṇa वर्ण - outward appearance, tribe order or class.

    Who you are (sattā - Being) is not dependent on acts - building, fighting, cleaning, or worshiping, Being remains.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #28
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Just because caste can be equated to class, it doesn't make either of them right. One can say they're both wrong, and the very system is aimed at oppressing poor people.
    You have utterly NO clue about what you're stating. VD was, is, will never be intended to "oppress poor people"! How can you be so obtuse? Brahmins, ~3-4% of the population in India, a land with more than a billion people, are at the lowest rung when it comes to wealth! Brahmins were NEVER materially rich! In fact, one of the virtues of Brahminhood is to shirk materialism and live an austere life. And MANY Brahmins, even today, live such lives! In fact, a great Sanskrit word to describe this is vaIrAgyA!

    Kings in the days of yore supported the Brahmin community for umteen reasons. Many Brahmins were mendicants who would BEG for food and basic necessities! Virtuous people, admiring piety and consequently holding Brahmins in high esteem, would support them. Brahmins never sought power, politically or otherwise, material wealth, and fame. That is what a real Brahmin did, does, and always will do!

    The moronic British, in order to set man against man, masterminded a propaganda machine that is still damaging Indian society to this day! The severe antagonism, racism, and violence that Brahmins have undergone in the last 60 years is the culmination of the hateful, deliberately misleading literature created by the British during colonial times to oppress the real intellectual, independent, and proud spirit of India; Brahmins! From the destruction of the gurukula system of education by sh!t for brains like Macauley to the extreme anti-Brahmin sentiment, especially in South India, during the early part of the 20th Century, Indian society has drastically deteriorated economically and spiritually. The result was a mass exodus of Brahmins from India who sought greener pastures abroad! The socialist/marxist gauntlet thrown down by Nehru has devastated India for decades and only very recently have the people of India awakened to the plight of the country both domestically and overseas.

    The point is, Brahmins, unlike the silly literature and propaganda that you are fed through the a$$ with, along with VD were NOT the reason India was in doldrums over the past six decades! The Nehruvian/Gandhian dynasty had struck a smashing blow to Bharat Maata when the bloody partition took place and communal tensions erupted.



    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Maybe so, but even the poorest Black is better off than a dalit in India.
    What an imbecilic statement! The Indian reservation system in education makes affirmative action look like the Jim Crow laws from decades ago! The dalit in India is given EVERY opportunity to come up in society and succeed. In fact, most of the oppression of the dalits are by low-caste people; sUdras and such. It's funny how westerners, dalits themselves, think Brahmins oppress dalits because they have darker skin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Kings in India were fighting and killing each other all the time.
    Kings in India, HINDU India, always fought DHARMIC wars. With the advent of the barbarian untouchables (muslims/christians), this dharmic warfare soon declined! This argument hold NO water as to what is being mentioned! Read more about dharmic warfare in the Mahabharata. Civilian populations were NEVER attacked. No women or children were ever killed or enslaved. Battles would be fought in a BATTLEFIED; FAR AWAY from the main centers of civilization! There was no fighting after sunset and no man would fight another man without a weapon of EQUAL caliber. With the musLAMES in the 8th century, this kindness was taken as weakness and midnight raids, savage slaughter of innocent civilians, uneven battles (1 vs 10 etc.) resulted and thus exacerbated India's decline in Kali Yuga! Along with the iron fist rule of the muslims for about 900 years and the mind-numbing propaganda put forth by the untouchable British, as well as the dismantling of the Indian education system (gurukula) and anti-Hindu sentiment, India was dealt a severe blow in the 20th Century; partition. As the US Time Magazine correctly put in their issue in 1947: "India: Liberty & Death"!
    Last edited by TatTvamAsi; 29 January 2009 at 08:31 PM.

  9. #29
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Namaste IR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Caste then would be more like race, right? If so, in what way is this different from racism? A black person cannot change his race, going by Kanchi Seer's idea, neither can a shudra. Isn't this unfair?
    It is not Kanchi Seer's 'idea' that caste and varNa are decided only by birth and that they can't be changed. He has only given the correct interpretation of the relevant quotes in the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita. You may feel yourself to be competent to oppose what he has elaborated, but I am not.

    Logically, a black person, even when he becomes a president, cannot change his race in this birth, can he? In the same way IMO, yes, a shUdra cannot change his varNa. This means that he can learn and study the Vedas, be a ruler or a business tycoon, but that does not alter his varNa in this birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Just because caste can be equated to class, it doesn't make either of them right. One can say they're both wrong, and the very system is aimed at oppressing poor people.
    The varNa or caste or class system, per se is not wrong, only the exploitation of either by vested interests. It is this system that has has preserved the Hindu religious and cultural deversity and saved Hinduism from destruction by the western religions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Kings in India were fighting and killing each other all the time. There's no difference between Indians and westerners in this respect, if at all there's any, westerners did this globally, whereas Indians were local.
    Kings in India did not practice the system of human slavery, whereas in the European civilization even the rich and wealthy did it. The Indian kings might have fought among themselves killing each other, but only in wars, which were fought according to the kShatriya dharma. They never killed the civilians in wars nor fought their wars after sunset. It was the invading Muslims who violated these principles. Later, the British who ruled India, brought slyness and sophistry to those violations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    Maybe so, but even the poorest Black is better off than a dalit in India.
    In what way? Does the poorest Black have the security and peace of life that a Dalit has in India? As a rule, the rich and wealthy of any religious community is never happy or peaceful because of more and more avarice (unless they seek to earn and spend their wealth dharmically), but the poor in India, left to themselves, are much more peaceful and satisfied than their counterparts in the West, and this is only because of their faith in the Hindu dharma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
    All this is completely irrelevant in the 21st century. We must give up traditions which curtail our progress, and instead of focus on the important aspects of the Hindu religion alone, namely studying, meditation, yoga etc. Else, Hinduism will appear just as intolerant as Islam.
    You cannot accuse a judicial system of being intolerant just because the law is becoming more and more of an ass, resulting in convictions of the criminal (and sometimes innocent) poor while the criminally rich and powerful always escape the clutches of the law. In the same way, Hinduism will never appear as intolerant to the right thinkers because of its varNa and caste system, which regulate the Hindu Dharma.

    You are wrong in your view that 'traditions curtail our progress'. It is the Hindu traditions that have spread, fostered and sustained faith and dharma among all sections of the Hindu society and kept the influence of western materialism at bay. Similarly, study, meditation, yoga and such advanced methods of sAdhana are available in Hinduism to everyone without the requirement of an intermediate pastor.

    On the other hand, while the Hindu paths of meditation and yoga are universal and generally welcomed in the West, some orthodox Muslim and Christian religious establishments seek to impose a ban on them to keep their followers enslaved to the precepts of their dogma. It is this tradition of imposed dogma of the western religions that stands in the way of the spiritual progress of the common person, and needs to be opposed.

    A Hindu religious person, whether a brahmin or a dalit, might be required to adhere to the precepts of his varNa, but is never enslaved within its confines. He is always free to have his own independent inquiry towards the nature of his Self, and in this path he always has guidance, both by the scriptures and by gurus.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  10. #30
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste Yajvan.
    Kanchi Paramacharya gives an elaborate discourse on the history, nature and meaning of the caste and varNa. He firmly says that a person's caste and varNa are decided on birth, not on action or guNa, and this is what Sri Krishna means in the Bhagavad Gita. For details, check this and other allied links:

    Caste according to the Vedas and the Gita
    http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap2.htm
    Namaskar All,


    An extract from the Kanchi Paramacharya's writing:
    Some concede that Bhagavan does not deny caste differences, but however argue that, according to the Lord, caste is not based on birth but on the individual qualities of people. In support they quote this line from the Gita. "Caturvarnyam mayasrstam guna-karma-vibagasah".
    When do we come to know the qualities that distinguish an individual? At what age does he reveal his nature? How are we to determine this and impart him the education and training necessary for the vocation that will be in keeping with his qualities?
    ------------------
    We must note the very practical aspect of Paramacharya's teaching. People who have faith on incarnation have no difficulty in believing that a birth is determined by past actions. Good actions lead to a birth in a pious family and vice versa. Because this knowledge is almost forgotten there is great discontent in society.

    We should also note Caturvarnyam mayasrstam guna-karma-vibagasah. To call some caste as untouchable is not Hinduism, since Lord is not untouchable.

    Sun-Pushan is considered Shudra in Upanishad.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 31 January 2009 at 03:30 AM. Reason: To remove empty space
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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