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Thread: Why would the Lord delude?

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    Why would the Lord delude?

    Pranam all

    Quote Originally Posted by krsna Das
    Lord Visnu instructed Lord Siva to preach this philosophy because at that point of time, in India, people used to perform devotional service to Lord Visnu only for material motives and not for attaining Sudha-ekantiaka-prema-mayi-bhakti, devoid of desire for material gains and desire for Moksa (Liberation).


    In order to delude such people, and also to protect the swaroop of such Suddha-bhakti (avyabhicarini-bhakti),
    Two contradicting statement, one Vishu wants to delude people because he is not happy that they worship him for material gain only, but then he wants to delude and keep the sudh bhakti away from them by deluding them.

    Lord Visnu instructed Lord Siva to preach this philosophy because at that point of time, in India, people used to perform devotional service to Lord Visnu only for material motives and not for attaining Sudha-ekantiaka-prema-mayi-bhakti, devoid of desire for material gains and desire for Moksa (Liberation).
     
     
    At what point of time please quantify.

    Why would the Lord punish this class of people whose only crime is that they do not desire pure love for god.?

    This is in direct contrast to what Lord Krishna says in bg

    The wise should not unsettle the mind of the ignorant who is attached to the fruits of work, but the enlightened one should inspire others by performing all works efficiently without attachment. (3.26)

    Those who are deluded by the Gunas of nature get attached to the works of the Gunas. The wise should not disturb the mind of the ignorant whose knowledge is imperfect. (3.29)

    nadatte kasyacit papam
    na caiva sukrtam vibhuh
    ajnanenavrtam jnanam
    tena muhyanti cantata
    The Lord does not take the (responsibility for) good or evil deeds of anybody. The knowledge is covered by (the veil of) ignorance, thereby people are deluded. (5.15)

    And there you are telling us that the lord interferes and actually deludes those who worship him all being for selfish desires!
    If they are deluded why delude them even more?
     
     
     
     
    Lord Visnu ordered Lord Siva to spread this philosophy, because it is possible only for the pure-unalloyed devotees of Supreme Personality of GodHead to preserve the mood (bhava) of Sudha-Bhakti, not the persons having material motives or desire for liberation (meaning desire for 4 purusarthas).
    Now if you accepted Shiva Gita of the same Puran this literal ordering would not make sense to you because there in Lord Shiva is supreme.
    In fact the whole verse make no sense for several reasons,

    an unalloyed bhakta of God would not lie and if he did it would be for in best interest of one who is lied to. But from what I gather according to you this people are made to be deluded even more, so what is in gods name the purpose of this delusion?
     
    We can all agree on material desire and its draw back, but 4 pursartha?

    I am afraid you be on your own because no Hindu dare reject it, take dharma away and we are no better then animals. Dharma ,atrth kaam and moksa whatТs in the gods name wrong with it ?

    Lord Krishna says
    catur-vidha bhajante mam
    janah sukrtino 'rjuna
    arto jijnasur artharthi
    jnani ca bharatarsabha
    Four types of virtuous ones worship or seek Me, O Arjuna. They are: the distressed, the seeker of Self-knowledge, the seeker of wealth, and the wise one who knows the Supreme. (7.16)

    So there is nothing wrong in (siva gita) that. Actually it is correct as per Madhurya-gata-sidhhanta of Sri Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya. Lord Siva is the greatest of vaisnavas,
    Your explanation is not honest I asked you if you accept Siva Gita and here you are explaining how he is a greatest servant where else, Siva Gita extol him to be supreme.
    It is not correct or otherwise because Madhurya -gata-Sidhantaa say so but because that is what Padma puran say so. Do you accept that?

    As of now, I won't say that Sriman Madhvacarya did not quote these verses, because I haven't read all of his commentaries/literature.
    And you claim to come in his line of sampradaya?

    We don't accept that vidharmis have tempered with our scriptures, though we do beleive that they distroyed many of them like burning of great library in taxila etc
    You betray your biased love for Vishnu otherwise it is well researched by many Hindus that there is actually interpolation of our Puranas. As a hindu I have many reason to believe so. You are welcome to your belief but that does not change the fact. All you have to do is research puranas, how they were preserved and how many version of the same were found differing with each other.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Why would the Lord delude?

    This post has been deleted.
    Last edited by Onkara; 14 January 2010 at 01:15 AM.

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    Re: Why would the Lord delude?

    Namaste GaneshPrasad ji,

    Thanks for a well reasoned post !

    I wonder how many lies are they (ISKCON members) ready to speak to convert people to their fold :

    i) They say that Bhagwad Gita is supreme as Bhagwan himself said so. Absolutely "No problem" ! But then why do they interpret all advaitic verses in Bhagwad Gita in a distorted way to suit their philosophy ? Why are they so selective ? What is the need for interpreting those verses in a distorted manner ? Do they think that Lord Krishna needs their manipulated explanations to be understood properly ?

    Some of the verses in Bhagwad Gita appear to be directly retold (almost same words are used) from Katha Upanishad ... that shows that Lord Krishna only retold what was already there in the Upanishads & that is why the Bhagwad Gita is called the essence of Upanishads & it is considered Smriti and not Shruti.

    ii) They say that Shruti, Smriti & Puranas are all equal in authority as Shabda Pramana. But then won't accept Rudra-rahasya Upanishad, Shiv Purana, Devi Bhaagwat & other scriptures ! I doubt if they understand why Shruti is called Shruti & why Smriti is called Smriti & why puranas are not Shruti or Smriti.

    iii) If all scriptures are equal in status then "everything" whatever they say must be correct simultaneously i.e. Shiva is Supreme (Shiva Purana), Vishnu is Supreme (Vishnu Purana), Self is Supreme & all whatever is (Maandukya Upanishad), Mother Goddess is Supreme (Devi Bhaagwat). As Supreme can only be one by definition, all the forms stated above must be same as it echoes in Rig Veda :

    "Ekam Sat Vipra bahudha vadanti"

    iv) They happily quote (distorted and manipulated version ) Padma Purana but leave out Shiva Gita which is part of Padma Purana ! And when pressed to clarify their stand they again resort to mischief ... showing Shiva as the best of servants of Vishnu instead of accepting Him the supreme as Shiva Gita says.

    v) Every Hindu knows that Lord Rama sought the blessings of Lord Shiva before proceeding for Lanka. Why did the supreme personality of Godhead desire blessings from his own servant ?

    vi) It is the height of ridiculousness to say that God can ever want to delude people ... doesn't it take the godliness (shivam) out of God ? Does God remain God if he ever desire to delude people even more when they are already deluded ? Can He be so desperate so worshipped in any way to delude his own devotees ? How can He then be called the Ocean of Compassion ?

    The reason given is "because they (mayavaadis/Advaitins) worship Him for material gains" ! This is the greatest lies in the history of mankind !! The first principle of Advaita is to go from unreal to real .... and they are told to be after material gains ?? Can anyone name even one Advaitin worth his name who is/was after material gains ? Is this philosophy about how to have material gains ?

    The answer to all above questions is NO (in capital) ! Then Lord Vishnu must be day-dreaming when he thought so !!

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 15 January 2010 at 02:26 AM. Reason: Removed objectionable part of the post !
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Why would the Lord delude?

    namaste.

    Here is a wonderful article about the Shiva-ViShNu unity and identity illustrated from various episodes in our PurANas. It begins with a beautiful observation:

    “There are two mahaa-phala daayaka Vrukshas. One by the name Vaasudeva and the other by the name Vaamadeva. They differ only in their sumas (flowers) (’su’ is replaced by ‘ma’ in their names), but both give the same phalas (fruits, which is moksham)”. It is also often said, “How much one does not see the difference between Shiva and Vishnu, that much his aayu will increase”.

    I am only reminded of a Tamil proverb about the two Gods among our TrimUrti:

    Ariyum Sivanum oNNU
    AriyAdavan vAyil maNNU!

    Hari and Shiva are the same;
    Those who don't know it are lame!
    рд░рддреНрдирд╛рдХрд░рдзреМрддрдкрджрд╛рдВ рд╣рд┐рдорд╛рд▓рдпрдХрд┐рд░реАрдЯрд┐рдиреАрдореН ред
    рдмреНрд░рд╣реНрдорд░рд╛рдЬрд░реНрд╖рд┐рд░рд░рддреНрдирд╛рдвреНрдпрд╛рдВ рд╡рдиреНрджреЗ рднрд╛рд░рддрдорд╛рддрд░рдореН рее

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Question Re: Why would the Lord delude?

    Dandavat Pranamas, Ganeshprasad Prabhu Ji,

    Believe me, I did not posted the two questions for debate, but for my own information that how do advaitins reconcile these verses with there faith.

    However, I understand that you have started this thread addressing me (Am I correct?), so I will try to answer all your questions in detail (previously I just said everything very briefly), with whatever I have learned from vaisnava acaryas and whatever I have grasped per my own understanding.

    I request you to please read each and every word of my post and also understand the meaning.

    All glories to SriSri Radha Krsna alone !

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam all
    Two contradicting statement, one Vishu wants to delude people because he is not happy that they worship him for material gain only, but then he wants to delude and keep the sudh bhakti away from them by deluding them.
    Lord does not want to keep Sudhha-Bhakti away from anybody. Infact Sudhha-Bhakti alone bounds Sri Hari himself to his devotees [ http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/4/21-22/en ]. Inspite of this Sri Bhagwan says Lord Siva to propagate Mayavad. Why? Two reasons - at that point of time, budhhism became a mojor religion to be followed in india and vedic dharma almost collapsed. (Yada Yada hi dharmasya) Whenever the practices of Sanatan Dharma are challanged by athiests/asuras, Lord himself incarnates or sometimes sends his devotees. In this case, Lord requested Siva to propage such a philosophy which is similar to budhism, but sounds like a philosophy propunded by vedic dharma and not budhism. The motive was to bring the general populace back to vedic fold. So question arises that Lord could have propagated the path of sudhha-bhakti itself. Answer is NO, that was not feasible, because people would not simply accept a philosophy which propagates the devotion to personal form of Supreme Lord, because they had been following this philosophy (budhhism) for a very long time, which speaks about voidism and not bhakti. They would simply not accept any sidhhanta which differs to a very large degree in comparision to budhhism. So a philosophy similar to budhism (prachhanna-baudhham ucyate), but seemigly belonging to vedic fold was required to be propagated, so that people should somehow come back to vedic fold. Another reason was that small number of people who were following the vedic dharma, were actually only performing the karma-kanda, but preaching this to be the supreme truth propunded by vedas. But the supreme truth is Bhakti, and not karma-kanda. In order to preserve the mood (bhava) of such sudhha-bhakti, Lord Siva propagated a philosophy, which they accepted, and in this way, the swaroop of Sudhha-Bhakti was preserved in the same mood, as is followed by the pure-unalloyed devotees of the Lord.

    Lord Siva incarnated in the form of Sripad Sankracarya and propagated this philosophy so aggressively, that in no time budhhism was eradicated from india, though India is the birth place of budhhism !

    Once people accepted the vedic fold of life, it was also necessary to give them the actual sidhhanta propunded by all the vedic-literatures (Sudhha-Bhakti to Sri Hari) and for this reason Lord Krsna himself incarnated in the form of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. [ http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/4/33/en ]

    Caitanya Mahaprabhu has himself warned - not even to read the sariraka bhasya of SriPad Sankaracarya, otherwise the spiritual life of that person is in jeopardy:

    [ http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/6/169/en ]

    At what point of time please quantify.
    This was the time-period after the birth of Lord Budhha and till sometime later the advent of SriPad Sankracarya.

    Why would the Lord punish this class of people whose only crime is that they do not desire pure love for god.?
    Who is punishing and whome? I never said anything like that.

    Prabhu ji, I just want to know what is your motive - debate or acquire knowledge. If it is debate, I cannot help you out, because that is not my motive for joining HDF.

    This is in direct contrast to what Lord Krishna says in bg

    The wise should not unsettle the mind of the ignorant who is attached to the fruits of work, but the enlightened one should inspire others by performing all works efficiently without attachment. (3.26)

    Those who are deluded by the Gunas of nature get attached to the works of the Gunas. The wise should not disturb the mind of the ignorant whose knowledge is imperfect. (3.29)

    nadatte kasyacit papam
    na caiva sukrtam vibhuh
    ajnanenavrtam jnanam
    tena muhyanti cantata
    The Lord does not take the (responsibility for) good or evil deeds of anybody. The knowledge is covered by (the veil of) ignorance, thereby people are deluded. (5.15)

    And there you are telling us that the lord interferes and actually deludes those who worship him all being for selfish desires!
    If they are deluded why delude them even more?
    That is why I keep on insisting again and again, that simply reading Geeta is not enough, one has to surrender himself at the lotus feet of unalloyed devotees, so as to get the real message of this great text. Otherwise one may turn into a scholar, but not a bhakta.

    Lets take the verse 3.26. Lord says "Yuktah Samacaran" here Yuktah means not only doing work without fritive desires (Karma-sanginam), but also to do this work in the spirit of devotional service (bhakti), this is called Niskama-karma-yoga (meaning the work done without any fruitive activities in mind, but also in the spirit of devotion for the pleasure of Krsna. This is called Niskama-Karma-yoga (which is again in the mode of goodness and not Nirguna, like Bhakti, so it is not the supreme truth propunded by Geeta).

    Lower than Niskama-karma-yoga is Niskam-karma. There is difference between the two. In the latter, although a person does not have any personal desires, still the motive of such work is not the pleasure of Krsna.

    Whereas what I explained above is that people at that point of time were preaching karma-kanda (ritualistic activities mentioned in vedas for fulfilling a personal material motive) to be the Supreme truth, because of which the swaroop of Sudhha-bhakti was maligned. They were also not in position to accept the Sudhha-bhakti, neither Niskama-Karma-yoga (because they were attached to the results of karma).

    Now if you accepted Shiva Gita of the same Puran this literal ordering would not make sense to you because there in Lord Shiva is supreme.
    In fact the whole verse make no sense for several reasons,
    Lord Siva proclaims himself to be supirior to Lord Ram in Siva Gita. That is correct and there is no point denying to this fact.

    This should be reconciled as follows:

    The relationship of Lord Visnu with Siva can be understood clearly by
    (1) Tattva-gata sidhhanta [ http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5055 ]
    (2) Aiswarya-gata-sidhhanta and
    (3) Madhurya-gata-sidhhanta

    What is Madhurya-gata-sidhhanta? For this, we must know what is Madhurya in first place with an example. Like mother yasoda takes a stick in her hand to chastise Krsna. Now although Krsna is abhaya-caranarvinda himself, but he experiences bhaya from his mother. This is because of atulniya-vatsalya bhava of mother yasoda towards Krsna. Krsna actually tastes such rasas of pure devotion with his devotees.

    Similary, although Krsna is Supreme personality of Godhead and Siva is greatest of vaisnavas [ http://vedabase.net/sb/12/13/16/en ], he reciprocates (ye yatha mam prapadhyante tansta thaive bhjamyaham) with such a pasttime, showing himself to be his devotee, so as to taste the rasa of devotion of Sri Siva. Similary, Lord Ramacandra pays his obiesiences to Siva before making a bridge to Lanka.

    ALL gaudiya vaisnavas accept this fact whole heartedly.

    But in Siva Gita, Siva is considered to be Supreme. - This is true and not only with Siva Gita, but also other sastras like Siva maha purana and linga purana etc. So why is that so? - It is because puranas propund different aradhanas for people depending on the mode in which a person is. For the person absorbed in mode of ignorance, worship of Lord Siva / Goddess kali as an independent supreme diety is prescribed.

    Shoving down the pure unalloyed bhava-bhakti of SriSri Radha Krsna down the throat of such person will simply not do. That's because he is not ready for this for now, keeping in mind his current situation.

    But for vaisnavas, considering Lord Siva as supreme independent diety is considered as an apradha (offense towarsd Lord visnu). It is second apradha amongst the 10 nama-apradhas.

    an unalloyed bhakta of God would not lie and if he did it would be for in best interest of one who is lied to. But from what I gather according to you this people are made to be deluded even more, so what is in gods name the purpose of this delusion?
    An unalloyed bhakta of God never lies - that is true. But he should be ready to lie when Lord himself requests him to do so.

    Telling lies for the pleasure of Krsna is the highest truth.

    My Guru-Maharaj always says - "Krsna ki prasannata ke liye jhooth bolna pade to bol dena, kyon ki yahi param-satya hai"
     
    We can all agree on material desire and its draw back, but 4 pursartha?

    I am afraid you be on your own because no Hindu dare reject it, take dharma away and we are no better then animals. Dharma ,atrth kaam and moksa what’s in the gods name wrong with it ?
    Four purusarthas are prescribed by vedic literature, so that human-race does not turn into animals - that's true. But at the same time, Lord cannot be attained just by the execution of these purusathas.

    One must ultimatley give up the attachment for these four purusarthas or dharmas, in order to execute the Pancam-Purusartha, prema-mayi bhagwad-bhakti to the lotus feet of Supreme Personality of Godhead:

    sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja - Abandon all the varities of dharma and surrender ONLY TO ME (mām ekam).


    Lord Krishna says
    catur-vidha bhajante mam
    janah sukrtino 'rjuna
    arto jijnasur artharthi
    jnani ca bharatarsabha
    Four types of virtuous ones worship or seek Me, O Arjuna. They are: the distressed, the seeker of Self-knowledge, the seeker of wealth, and the wise one who knows the Supreme. (7.16)
    The one who perfoms devotion to Lord for fulfilling his desires, Lord considers hims also to be his Bhakta. That is the mercy of supreme lord, of this there is no doubt.

    However, this bhakti is called Vyabhicarini-Bhakti and not A-vyabhcarini. One must not preach Vyabhicarni-Bhakti to be the supreme truth, for if one does so, one maligns the swaroop of Sudhha-bhakti amongst the general people, who are already deluded.

    Your explanation is not honest I asked you if you accept Siva Gita and here you are explaining how he is a greatest servant where else, Siva Gita extol him to be supreme. It is not correct or otherwise because Madhurya -gata-Sidhantaa say so but because that is what Padma puran say so. Do you accept that?
    I have already explained this above.

    And you claim to come in his line of sampradaya?
    One does not have to be necessarily first go through ALL the books of Sri Brahma-Madha-Gaudiya Sampradaya in order to be initiated in it, or even any other sampradaya. Your argument is totally unacceptible. In fact it is not worth calling an argument in first place.

    Anyways, if you read the scripture composed by Sriman Madhvacarya (called Visnu-tattva-vinirnaya), he has clearly propunded that there is difference between Jiva and Iswara, whereas mayavad suggests pure oneness between Jiva and Brahma. There for he has also refuted mayavad.

    You betray your biased love for Vishnu otherwise it is well researched by many Hindus that there is actually interpolation of our Puranas. As a hindu I have many reason to believe so. You are welcome to your belief but that does not change the fact. All you have to do is research puranas, how they were preserved and how many version of the same were found differing with each other.
    If many hindues believe that puranas are interpolated, let them beleive in it. For me, my sidhhanta is the last and final word and the Supreme Truth. I am not bothered by any other sidhhanta other than this. Please read point number ten of this thread:

    [ http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...7982#post37982 ]

    ALSO, I have explained everything whatever I could in the best possible way. I could not have explained anything better than this.. Also, as I have already said, debate is not my motive to be in HDF.

    [P.E.R.I.O.D.]

    Jai Shree Krishna
    All glories to SriSri Radha Krsna again !
    Last edited by Krsna Das; 14 January 2010 at 09:17 AM.

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    Re: Why would the Lord delude?

    Pranam krsna Das ji

    Thank you for your time an effort to explain in details, I shell try once again to prove this verses you quote can only be interpolation, I doubt that you will accept even if proof is beyond reasonable doubt simply because you can not think out side of your box.

    Let me make it clear so that there is no confusion Puran means
    पुराण puraaNa adj. old पुराण puraaNa adj. ancient
    it is glories history of Bharat

    That is why I asked what time point of time Lord Vishnu instructed Lord Shiva? to that you answer sometime between Budha birth and Adi Shankracharya

    Fact, Sri Ved Vyas narrated this Puran well before BudhaТs birth, this is enough as an evidence that the the verses are a later addition and not the original.


    Two, Madhacharya does not quote these verse
    Three, Lord does not delude that is explicit in Bhagvat Gita
    Four, you say 4 pursharth which all hindu follows, are not desirable pursuit for some obscure reason, and yet you contradict again by quoting BG
    sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja - Abandon all the varities of dharma and surrender ONLY TO ME (mam- ekam). You forget to mention the result let me remind you aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah

    I shall liberate you from all sins (or bonds of Karma). Do not grieve.

    So moksa is what Krishna gives yet that is not acceptable to you.

    But in Siva Gita, Siva is considered to be Supremme. - This is true and not only with Siva Gita but also other sastras like Siva maha purana and linga purana etc. So why is that so? - It is because puranas propund different aradhanas for people depending on the mode in which a person is. For the person absorbed in mode of ignorance, worship of Lord Siva / Goddess kali as an independent supreme diety is prescribed.
    Not considered, but fact he is God, Maheshvara.
    He is Pasupatinath, God for all beings not just people in mode of ignorance, that is your misconception otherwise this is what Bhagvat puran says but unfortunately you guys just ignore the facts and are very selective.

    The devas observed Lord Siva sitting on the summit of Kailas Hill with his wife, Bhavani for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The devas offered him their obeisanceТs and prayers with great respect. SB 8.7.20

    Anyway lets not make this thread Shiva V Vishnu they are both auspicious and they do not delude their devotees

    Jai Shree Krishna
     
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Why would the Lord delude?

    Pranam Devotee ji Saidevo ji and all
    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post

    I wonder how many lies are they (ISKCON members) ready to speak to convert people to their fold :

    OM
    Sad but it is true, i have seen numerous lies i have been going to their temple for over 30 years, i still like the Arti and Kirtan.

    if you read their books instead of concentrating on Bhagvan they have with every opportunity tried to make other Hindu practice as Inferior

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Why would the Lord delude?

    Wow...

    An excellant response but with ignorance...

    A big answer is not a big NO but "I DO NOT KNOW" yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    How many Vaishnavas (historical not the figures in Puranas) have really seen Lord Vishnu, met him in person & Lord Vishnu told them that Shiva and all other gods are inferior to Him ? None ?? So, what is the Pratyaksha Pramana ?

    How many Advaitins have been able to attain Advaita ? Many ... in thousands ... if not more.

    OM

    Where is the Pramana for people attaining "Advaita"? Even the previous Kanchi seer cannot claim he attained JivanMukthi and he very humbly denies that as a fact. Telling a wish list is not a pramana.

  9. #9
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    Re: Why would the Lord delude?

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Wow...

    An excellant response but with ignorance...

    A big answer is not a big NO but "I DO NOT KNOW" yet.

    Where is the Pramana for people attaining "Advaita"? Even the previous Kanchi seer cannot claim he attained JivanMukthi and he very humbly denies that as a fact. Telling a wish list is not a pramana.
    No need to comment !

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 15 January 2010 at 02:29 AM. Reason: Truth speaks for itself.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #10
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    Re: Why would the Lord delude?

    namaste.

    Let us not abuse the names of our sacred gurus as points of contention of the darkness of our own ignorance!

    If Devotee's question about pratyakSha pramANa is rather immature, grames's counter is plainly mischievous. We have not an iota of competence to question the jIvanmukta status of our gurus like the KAnchi seer or RamaNaMaharshi. If we do question them for our petty arguments, there would be no difference between us Hindus and the mlechchas.
    рд░рддреНрдирд╛рдХрд░рдзреМрддрдкрджрд╛рдВ рд╣рд┐рдорд╛рд▓рдпрдХрд┐рд░реАрдЯрд┐рдиреАрдореН ред
    рдмреНрд░рд╣реНрдорд░рд╛рдЬрд░реНрд╖рд┐рд░рд░рддреНрдирд╛рдвреНрдпрд╛рдВ рд╡рдиреНрджреЗ рднрд╛рд░рддрдорд╛рддрд░рдореН рее

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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