Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 345678 LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 80

Thread: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

  1. #61
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    369

    Unhappy Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMalaysia View Post
    Alcohol is used in some Hindu rituals. In Ampang, Malaysia, I saw a statue of the South Indian God Sanggili Karuppan (also called Karuppu Sami) at the back of a Muniswarar temple.



    As you can see, some Guinness (which isn't even vegetarian) has been placed in front of Him as an offering. During the puja, I was very surprised to the see the priest light a beedi (a type of Indian cigarette) and place it in Sanggili Karuppan's mouth!
    Namaste Scott

    Beautiful example. Almost in all discussions we get polarised and fail to see the essence. I realise that i have been a constant fixture in polarisation, all through. Yajvan Ji will smile and say "Yes. Your natal Sun and Moon are 180 degress apart -- that is why."

    There is a bhakti book called Shiva Bhakta Vilasam, which tells stories of extraordinary Shiva bhaktas. There is a story of hunter Kannapar who loves Shiva by feeding Shiva meat from his own mouth and washes Shiva with his spit. The conventional priest was shocked by all this. But Shiva humiliates the righteous priest in favour of Kanappar. The story is a must read for all of us. Kanappar did not hesitate to give up his two eyes for the benefit of Lord.

    There are two key aspects:

    1. Cultural perspective: Kanappar was a hunter and knew probably nothing else but killing and meat eating. From that environment, he loved God more than the conventional priest ever could do. So, what should Lord do?

    For this, I believe, it is unwise to blindly criticise practices of others.

    2. Pranapratistha: Idol that we worship is our own prana. It is established externally for worship purpose. Often, Shiva Linga is propitiated by betel leaves and other items of popular consumption and that may appear asastraic to many brahmanas. However, it is sweet to offer Lord with love whatever that one consumes. Since, ultimately it is Lord, as agnivaisvanara that is the bhoktar -- the enjoyer. Also, it is the bhava that is important. And hypocrisy, in my opinion, is low.

    The main goal remains freedom from bondage of sensual prison and towards that, Meat, Alcohol, and Sex are more of detriments than helpful. Veda and Dharma Shastra, as noted by Isvasya, do recommend moderation/abstention. On the other hand, sexual congress with mate in the night, when engaged with the knowledge of sacrifice, is described as Brahmacharya in an upanishad (sex during day is warned against). Thus, IMO, it is more important to be true to one's one's own pracitices.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 20 June 2010 at 01:41 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    January 2010
    Location
    tadvishno paramam padam
    Age
    38
    Posts
    2,168
    Rep Power
    2547

    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Be happy in drinking and sexual orgies for your spiritual journey. May God save you !

    Your knowledge is so low that I don't consider you fit for engaging in a worthwhile discussion.

    OM
    I am not engaging in those activities, I am aware though that these things happen amongst large groups of people, do you think Hinduism is only fit for people who live pious lives?

    You seem to have some repressed issues.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    December 2007
    Age
    63
    Posts
    3,218
    Rep Power
    4728

    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    I am not engaging in those activities, I am aware though that these things happen amongst large groups of people, do you think Hinduism is only fit for people who live pious lives?

    You seem to have some repressed issues.
    Did you read my last post ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  4. #64
    Join Date
    January 2010
    Location
    tadvishno paramam padam
    Age
    38
    Posts
    2,168
    Rep Power
    2547

    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Yes, I did.

    There is an ideal way of living for spiritual aspirants and there is reality.

    Rules of worship are very important. Of course, animal flesh should not come near the mainstream temples and alcohol and sex should never be part of most mainstream rituals and temples. That would defile the sanction of the ritual and the ritualists. I could never imagine such things being conducted in the name of Hanuman, Ganesha or Krishna for example. But there are tantrik deties in Hinduism who are ugra and some people worship them seperately from the mainstream deities. This is not something that is required from every Hindu, but it's also not necessarily an evil practice.

    I hate to mention the Christians, but calling rituals evil...

    Well, unless people are sacrificing or hurting another human being, there is not much evil to these rituals. Scientist kill animals, butchers kill animals, but when an animal is ritually slaughtered in the name of some scary godess before it's consumed, it's suddenly evil?

    Personally, I would not engage in these vamachara rituals. I even refused to dissect a frog or an animal's liver in biology class, but that was my personal choice. I didn't start calling my classmates evil though.

    Hinduism is valuable for both people who are dharmic and for people who are adharmic. It's not like Christianity where only the pious people can play. One name that accures in the Lalita Sahasranama is dharma-adharma-vivarjita.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 20 June 2010 at 02:48 AM.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    December 2007
    Age
    63
    Posts
    3,218
    Rep Power
    4728

    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    There is an ideal way of living for spiritual aspirants and there is reality.

    Rules of worship are very important. Of course, animal flesh should not come near the mainstream temples and alcohol and sex should never be part of most mainstream rituals and temples. That would defile the sanction of the ritual and the ritualists. I could never imagine such things being conducted in the name of Hanuman, Ganesha or Krishna for example. But there are tantrik deties in Hinduism who are ugra and some people worship them seperately from the mainstream deities. This is not something that is required from every Hindu, but it's also not necessarily an evil practice.
    Exactly ! Now we can talk. What I am saying that such practices are not part of mainstream Hinduism and is not looked upon something pious by Hindus in general. However, if you see MH's post, he is trying to portary as if it is common to Hindus to indulge in such activities.

    We should not try to make exceptions as rules. There is no difference between the profane and the pure & still there is a difference. There is no difference from point of view of the Self-realised man ... but it makes a lot of diference for the common seeker.

    "Evil" can be really evil and may not be really evil ... it depends upon the status of the seeker. I have seen Siddhas from "Bhairava worshippers" smoking gaanjaa. But I should not try to copy it nor should I propagate this idea. The Tantra (involving drugs and sex etc.), Vaamaachaar, Shmashaan seva (living and meditating on burial grounds) are highly dangerous paths and have been abondoned by the Hindus in general.

    Portraying that it applies to all Hindus or even majority of Hindus ... is wrong & harmful to new-comers to Hinduism. That is what I want to say. The poison is poison for a human being ... when you become Shiva then the same Poison can do no harm to you. So, treat poison as poison unless you are Shiva.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #66
    Join Date
    February 2008
    Location
    Green Hill in KY USA
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,186
    Rep Power
    2563

    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    There's a school. Kindergarten with children age 5 and it goes all the way up to the Senior class who are often between the ages of 17-19.

    It would be foolish for a Senior to go into this class and start making fun of the children for not being able to read well.

    We would try very hard, very patiently to help them if we did see the lacking in their education. But, ultimately the kindergartener is not ready for the full wealth of wisdom which could pour from the very learned Senior.

    When we speak of SD in this example it could be lifetimes before one was ready.

    So from this we understand it takes firm, patient, guidance...with compassion.

    Which I think is happening...from many posts.

    Now this example also can be extrapolated further.

    Would we allow a Senior to go into an assembly program where children of mixed educational levels was listening and have them say things such as drinking alcohol is perfectly acceptable?

    Of course not. That senior would be removed...because we as parents know children will be influenced...and we try to make sure our values are the ones they experience first.

    If this person was speaking to all Seniors....they would have already learned enough from their own education and parental encouragement to make that decision for themself.

    These higher educated individuals are not fresh minded individuals soaking up information?

    Add to this that the cultural issues with alcohol/drugs/sex/meat in many areas of the world is profoundly destroying children's lives because abuse is rampant?

    Well isn't this the situation we face?

    There's really no disagreement here, simply location of the conversation is not ideal?

  7. #67
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    369

    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post
    Alcohol and meat - Veda dharm which is shruti and apaurusheya has no mention of any ritual which involves Alcohol. It is definitely tantric texts and perverted tantrics who use alcohal in their rituals. 90% Hindus in India wouldn't even have ever heard about any ritual involving alcohol.


    Namaste Isa

    I hope you will not mind a little bit of intervention here.

    Yajur Veda indeed talks of use of surA (alcohol) as it also talks of use of milk. But these two items are to be used for different purposes and by different types of worshippers.

    People are born in very diverse environments. What is applicable for a Brahmana may not be applicable to many others who are born in different kind of set up. Tantric texts are not cheap and speak of highest wisdom and highest goal. The spectrum of these texts is wide, encompassing paths for all types of personalities. In tantra, there is a category of Vira type of sadhakas, who are of the highest type because they have complete control over situations. Entry into Tantra cannot take place without a proper guru and the methods that involve sexual congress or offering and consumption of alcohol etc, are not for everyone. Only the vira type of sadhaka is free.

    Devotee is correct in his saying that first one should be Shiva and then do as Shiva-- take poison or take honey, since both are same to Shiva.

    Surely, it is wrong to advocate that Alcohol, Sex, and Meat were/are the common items of worship for all hindus. If you check up old posts, you will find that this theory persistently comes up in some posts and when opposed, is termed as rant. IMO, anger at universalism and endeavour to universalize an esoteric path are contradictory.
    The general way of hinduism is the middle path with control and austerity, laced with good karma -- and tolerance for what is different.

    However, again, i will point out that among the highest of gurus, Yoga Vashista is held as the Crown Jewel and therein (I repeat), Lord Shiva Himself teaches of a continuous worship:


    From Yoga Vasista

    The LORD continued: One should contemplate that the Lord is the intelligence in the body. The various functions and faculties in the body serve that intelligence as consorts serve their lord. The mind is the messenger who brings and presents to the Lord the knowledge of the three worlds. The two fundamental energies, viz. the energy of wisdom (Jnana sakti) and the energy of action (kriya sakti), are the consorts of the Lord. Diverse aspects of knowledge are his ornaments. The organs of action are the gates through which the Lord enters the outside world. I am that infinite self which is indivisible; I remain full and infinite, thus the intelligence dwells in the body.

    He who contemplates in this manner is equanimity itself, his behavior is equanimous guided by equal vision. He has reached the state of natural goodness and inner purity and is beautiful in every aspect of his being. He worships the Lord who is the intelligence that pervades his entire body.

    This worship is performed day and night perpetually, with the objects that are effortlessly obtained, which are offered to the Lord with a mind firmly established in equanimity and in the right spirit (for the Lord is consciousness and cares only for the right spirit}. The Lord should be worshipped with everything that is obtained without effort. One should never make the least effort to attain that which one does not possess. The Lord should be worshipped by means of all the enjoyments that the body enjoys, through eating, drinking, being with ones consort and such other pleasures. The Lord should be worshipped with the illnesses one experiences and with every sort of unhappiness or suffering one experiences. The Lord should be worshipped with all of ones activities, including life and death and all of ones dreams. The Lord should be worshipped with ones poverty and prosperity. The Lord should be worshipped even with fights and quarrels as well as with, sports and other pastimes, and with the manifestations of the emotions of attraction and aversion. The Lord should be adored with the noble qualities of a pious heart, friendship, compassion, joy and indifference.

    The Lord should be worshipped with all kinds of pleasures that are granted to one unsought, whether those pleasures are sanctioned by the scriptures, etc. or forbidden by them. The Lord should be worshipped with those which are regarded as desirable and others which are regarded as undesirable, with those that are considered appropriate and others that are considered inappropriate. For this worship, one should abandon what is lost and one should accept and receive what has been obtained without effort.


    For the highest sadhaka (approximately Vira in Tantrik language), the path is sahaja. Vira has no desire and utmost control. Every moment He worships the indwelling MASTER with whatever comes to him unsought. You will note that the statement of Lord "One should never make the least effort to attain that which one does not possess", will seem ridiculous for us who have not discarded the false knowledge of individuality. It will seem ridiculous to 99% of readers because we think that it is the individual who is the doer. In such circumstance, a teaching such as "worship Lord by Sex, Meat, and Madira", to common people is a disaster because such a sadhka will individually enjoy these and accrue disastrous karma.

    We, who are in the middle have opinions and judgements. But for the Jnani all is Shiva. Similarly, mature followers of Tantra methods do not come into arguments. For the Jnani there is no Karma as there is no individual doer. I add that sex is not banned in scriptures. In fact, sex is taught as a sacrifice of agni unto agni in Vedanta.

    The above is my view only.

    Om Namah Shivaya.
    Last edited by atanu; 20 June 2010 at 11:57 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    October 2009
    Age
    38
    Posts
    374
    Rep Power
    97

    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    once again , does someone here have the original texts on ashwamedha and go-medha yajna ( not to mention the nara-medha) ??

    i want to know what exactly is written down there !!!

    were the animals sacrificed at the end or not ? till now i knew that they were ....
    na kAshthe vidyate devo na shilAyam kadAchana
    bhAve hi vidyate devas-tasmAd-bhAvam samAcharet

  9. #69
    Join Date
    November 2007
    Age
    67
    Posts
    844
    Rep Power
    560

    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    -deleted-
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 20 June 2010 at 07:45 PM. Reason: only windmills no soldiers

  10. #70
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    369

    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by sambya View Post
    once again , does someone here have the original texts on ashwamedha and go-medha yajna ( not to mention the nara-medha) ??

    i want to know what exactly is written down there !!!

    were the animals sacrificed at the end or not ? till now i knew that they were ....
    Namaste Sambya

    I had once posted the Asvamedha text in HDF. But surprisingly, seeing your post i searched and i cannot find it now.

    I remember reading in Kanchi seer's book that some veda karma kanda procedures indeed required animal sacrifice. But, IMO, as with every other procedure, the Jnana and Bhakti have mental equivalents.

    I have not heard of Nara medha (I have heard of Purusha medha). Purushamedha, Asvamedha or Go-Medha repectively pertain to Purusha (Soul), Asva (Virat-Mind) and Go (Vak).

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •