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Thread: Caste System Debate

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    This is your own impression! Nowhere has it been stated that one Varna is “better or worse” than other Varnas!
    That is quite right - it is just like calling a doctor or an engineer superior to the other. Taken as a spiritual classification, there will always be people in all these castes( or varnas)

    Taken as a social order, the society will crumble without any one of them - you need the Brahmins who serve as spiritual guides for others, kshatriyas who provide protection to the society, vaisjiyas who are the financial backbones of the society and shudras the general workforce of the society. Without any of these, it is bound to collapse.

    The only problem is it has not been employed properly. Some priestly class have abused their position and called themselves superior. They made friendship with the ruling classes and made rules suitable for themselves.

    Why, Bhagavad Gita is very clear on mentioning about these various divisions of the society.

    As for the present society, this is how I view as:

    Shudra is anyone who serves, includes any one who is salaried including the white collared jobs, and whatever your position. If you have to report to a "boss", you are a shudra no matter what you call yourself as!

    Vaishiya is the employer.

    Kshatriyas are people who have dedicated themselves to the society - selflessly serving others, running charity organizations etc. This could also include people who serve for the nation risking their lives - Red Cross, Army personnel, policemen etc.

    Brahmins are people who have devoted their life to God attainment and provide spiritual guidance to the society. Anyone with material desires fails to fit this category!

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhakti Yoga Seeker
    Unfortunately the caste system does absolutely nothing to elevate people. It calls a Brahmin a Brahmin for life even if he is in prision for murder. It calls a Shudra a Shudra for life even if he is a saintly person. Any society that needs such titles just to encourage people to be decent responsible adults is a weak and sad society. ~BYS~
    Why dont you read what Kamakoti has to say on the matter?

    http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part19/chap3.htm

    You are absolutely wrong about a Brahmin being called a Brahmin even if he murders. In olden times, if a Brahmin did any acts not conducive to his Dharma, he would be stripped of his Brahminhood. He would be required to perform prayaschitta ( atonement) for his acts, many of which are described in the Dharma Shastras. Failing which, his position would be miserable and he would be shunned by the society. It is not easy to be Brahmin in the society! Do you know that a Brahmin would get a more rigorous punishment for his crimes than a shudra? ( for an equivalent crime)

    There is simply no authority to enforce this nowadays or for the past several hundred years. Else no Brahmin can roam about calling himself a Brahmin and doing all activities against Brahmana Dharma.

    Try to go through the Dharma Shastras and you can read about the severe penalty a Brahmin would have to pay if he violated his Dharma. The laws are quite lenient on shudras and others in this regard, because they are just considered "evolving" and their mistakes are well tolerated.
    Last edited by TruthSeeker; 15 May 2006 at 02:12 AM.

  3. #23
    Abuse of the caste system started much later as far I know. The over rigidity, denying other caste's of the oppertunity to do upsana etc were all medivial imports. If I'm not wrong varna system doesn't stop anyone from spiritual practices at personal level. Everybody has full rights there.
    In Bengal for example varna system was almost non-existence till Mr Raghunandan established it not very long ago. And most medivial implementation was not smartism but shudraism. The idea was to declare as many people as shudras as possible so that few brahmins can enjoy the bliss of wealth~I'm referring to system of raghunandan. I think none denies the misuse of caste system in our society. One has to pay a visit to the cow belt to discover it. But that doesn't mean the classification by birth and varna system is all wrong~just because the western mind has made us to believe so.

  4. The debate over whether jati and varna are determined by birth or by quality is an interesting one and it is difficult to reach a definitive conclusion. Of course, traditionally birth has been the determining factor and remains so to the present day. This view in relation to varna would seem to be confirmed by Chapter 18 of the Bhagavad Gita in the words, saha-jam karma kaunteya sa-dosham api na tyajet. Here saha-jam would seem to indicate that kshatriya dharma and kshatriya nature are what one is born to and hence varna is determined by birth.

    However, when delivering his great discourse on dharma to Nahusha in the form of a serpent, Yudhishthira in the Mahabharata says:

    "If the designated qualities of a shudra are not found in a shudra then he is not a shudra. And if the designated qualities of a Brahmin are not found in a Brahmin then he is not a Brahmin. O serpent, a person is to be known as a Brahmin when the appropriate mode of life is witnessed. When that way of living is absent then a person should be accepted as a shudra" (Aranyaka Parvan, Ch 177, vs20-21 and Shanti Parvan, Ch 182, vs8).

    Also in the Mahabharata, the dharma-vyadha (righteous hunter) states:

    yas tu sudro dame satye dharme ca satotothitah/tam brahmanam manye, meaning "When a shudra manifests restraint, truthfulness and dharma, I consider him to be a Brahmin."

    Hindu dharma is like that, isn't it? There is always scope for debate even in the sacred texts.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singhi Kaya
    One has to pay a visit to the cow belt to discover it.
    What's the "cow belt" in India? Never heard of this in regards to India before.
    satay

  6. I have never heard of a 'cow belt' either!? With regard to a statement as to whether one varna is superior to another, one might suggest that Chapter 18 of the Gita relates the four varnas to the three gunas and hence establishes an order of supremacy. And in Book 13 of the Mahabharata, Bhishma praises the Brahmins in a manner that makes it clear that they are to be regarded as superior to other social classes.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    Shudra is anyone who serves, includes any one who is salaried including the white collared jobs, and whatever your position. If you have to report to a "boss", you are a shudra no matter what you call yourself as!
    Suffice it to say that 99% of hindus are shudras (spiritually).
    satay

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by satay
    Suffice it to say that 99% of hindus are shudras (spiritually).
    The 20th century has virtually forced every one to be employed. A typical Brahmin is not supposed to hoard wealth, not even enough food for the next day. He is supposed to beg for alms ( much like a sanyasin) and feed his family everyday. He is supposed to court poverty voluntarily , restrain his senses, and perform tapasya.

    You can see how Pandavas are seen begging for alms everyday when they disguised as Brahmins at Ekachakra. That is the typical way of Brahmin life. The society gives him all his bare material needs, and in return he fulfills the spiritual needs of the society. When Brahmins departed from this way of life, varna system has become corrupted.

  9. #29
    Uttar Pradesh, Bihar ... it is a pretty well know term and accepeted term in political discussions

  10. #30
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    Re: Caste System Debate

    I saw this nice post on another forum. Also noticed that the thread was promptly closed.

    Comments?

    "
    What a controverisal topic!!!!!
    Whatever one has to say will be opposed by somebody else. The topic of caste system itself is an active volcano, eh?

    Let me summarize the position.

    1. Non Hindus accuse Hinduism of being racists due to the existance of the varna system.
    2. A meek defence of the varna system being a man made creation is offered by some Hindus.
    3. Another new excuse of varna system being unrelated to heredity is offered by some new traditions, with no basis.( on the basis of some physical quality as if there were ever a need to create groups in such a case)
    4. All rishis and Acharyas of the land who are held to be from genuine sampradayas have upheld the varna system.
    5. Those who are frustrated accuse others of bigotry and racism and even insult Acharyas. (Adi Shankara has been unwarrantly targetted on this thread but all Acharyas have had the same position on this issue)
    6. The so called untouchability has no place in Hinduism, and no evidence of it. So all discussions should be with respect to only the four orders.
    7. There is so much hatred towards Brahmins when Brahmins of today are generally no longer oppressing anybody else in this name. The so called backward caste enjoy all privileges and no longer want to denounce the system, and have ensured that varna system will last for ever. If Brahmins regain their old position in future, they will introduce reservation for themselves again, and do tit for tat. Spite never pays off.


    So what is the deal:

    1. The varna system is hereditary only as preached by Hinduism. Any other position has no scriptural basis or proof in day to day life. The existance of the gotra is ample proof for it. Those who are thinking otherwise for saving Hinduism are actually misleading others.

    2. Even in Mahabaratha we can see instances of the virtuos Pandavas calling Karna as suta-putra and Drona cutting the thumb of Ekalavya. So this is nothing new. varna system is as old as Hinduism.

    2. The hereditary system is not based on race or skin color or any discrimination, but a natural law of nature.(genetic law)

    3. It is based on blood group typing with O=Brahmin, A = Kshatriya, B= Vaisya, AB = Sudra. Use your brains please and dont criticize our rishis.

    Any justification for the above claim? Yes.

    1. There are exactly four varna systems and exactly four major blood groups.
    2. The blood groups are not mutually compatible and some are even deadly for the other. Not all humans are the same and are compatible with each other.
    3. The all knowing rishis who knew about astral bodies and the atman are supposed to be knowing about blood groups isn't it?
    4. The O group person may die on receiving blood from AB donor, and if our scheme is correct, Sudra is indeed incompatible with Brahmin.
    5. Blood group is only an indicator of incompatibility due to Karmic reasons, and not the real issue. So if there were so many repercussions at the level of physical body, isn't it natural to assume that there can be implications at the astral body and more importantly spiirtual growth?
    6. The blood group type being clarified as the indicator of many things including of Karmic origin, is it fallacious to think that all people are not equally qualified for practising certain aspects of religion?
    7. I checked with the blood typing of 300 Brahmins, and more than 75% of them have O blood. ( more evidence needed to confirm the findings)
    8. Physical and mental qualities may be related to the blood group, and certain blood groups may predispose one to specific diseases. This is well known but not well researched.
    9. The marriage between incompatible groups may lead to still borns or lead to children with severe health problems. Only research can tell us.
    10. There is more to genetics and heredity than we ever care about, and it is the basis of the varna system.
    11. Bllood group inheritance itself is hereditary and not random. AB and AB can never produce O, while O and O can produce only O. ( Sudras can never procreate Brahmins while Brahmins can never give rise to a non Brahmin). 29 subtypes types of blood groups are known now and may correspond to many levels of inter-breeding. Mahabaratha mentions 14 types of kshatriyas.

    12. The varna system is mainly aimed at the level of marriage and sanctioning marraige only of people with compatible blood, and also enabling the spiritual growth of all in accordance with their Karma. That is also the basis of arranged marriage over love marriage.

    13. When we have deviated from this dharma, the world is now full of new genetic diseases with no known cures.

    LET US NOT DILUTE ANYTHING WITHOUT RESEARCH AND EVIDENCE. PLEASE TRY TO DO SOME RESEARCH ON THIS IF YOU ARE INTERESTED. DOCTORS CAN CERTAINLY ASSIST IN VERIFYING THIS HYPOTHESIS. LET US NOT HATE ANY BRAHMIN OR SUDRA DUE TO PREJUDICE AND MISCONCEPTION. LET US WORK TO DECODE THE TRUTH OF THE VARNA SYSTEM. IF WE FIND NO SOLID CORRESPONDENCE WE CAN ABOLISH THIS SYSTEM."

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