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Thread: Trying to Prove that is beyond proof is waste of time

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    Trying to Prove that is beyond proof is waste of time

    Namaste Brothers and Sisters,

    Whenever one tries to prove anything, most probably the discussion becomes a dog fight. Our goal of life also determines our approach. Our actions and speech are a reflection of our mental status.

    Issues will keep rising unless one accepts that both sides of coin are to be acknowledged. Only one part is stressed (Saguna or nirguna Brahman). Another has to be experienced. Rejecting one side of coin will be like wanting fire but not it’s warmth. They both are inseparable. Please understand that praising one form of God or belief system does not mean defaming degrading other. But then again, this approach may be called neo and so rejected.

    Then how will it bring peace and harmony? We are not living in jungle or in a Himalayan cave that we can hold onto our POV rigidly and that no one is going to interact with us. We live in society and so we have to tolerate all faiths. Biased, hate speeches will do more harm to us then others. Lord Buddha said, ‘Anger is like holding hot coal with the intent of throwing at others’ . If we are not at peace than how can we teach our children and the next generation. What will the future?

    HDF posts and it's content is tossed into the wild very fast and any outsider gets opportunity to ... (I guess you know).

    Our big family may have differences, but do you take your family matter into public?

    Alas, many learned members will keep trying to back their thoughts and no one backs off, as it is win-loose battle for them. Unfortunately no other member one attempts to begin peace.

    Proving supremacy is more of an egg-chicken riddle and proving supremacy that makes things worst. Else one can simply ignore other member’s posts and move on. Some members have bias for one path e.g. advaita or against some acharya. Nothing will happen to Ramanuja or shankara, but it is you whos progress will stop.

    What proof is needed for God or Brahman. Mandukya says OM is everything. It says Atman is Brahman (correct me if I am wrong). In Gita Bhagavan says, I am OM.

    So OM = Krushna or
    Krushna = OM

    Or if someone says,

    Brahman = Krushna
    Krushna = Brahman

    What difference does it make if I type OM first? Just because I practice Advaita, naturally OM will come first on my lips. A Krushna devotee will naturally remember Krushna first.

    God will say both things about saguna and nirguna, but we will keep fighting. Were shastras created for creating controversies? Think?

    There is nothing to prove. Truth remains truth and needs no proof. Truth has to be realized, be it Krushna, Rama, shakti or Brahman. I feel instead of proving anything, better spend more time with God. Better is to start walking then just keep talking, for in this world, you may be victorious, but you will be the last to reach the destination which Vedas point.

    For me, I will feel proud if I see or read that Shankaracharya is praising Vasudeva and accepting him a supreme. To me it is not contradictory. It is out of respect. Though we negate God’s Maya, we do respect God Saguna Ishwara. So if I find shankara praising Narayana, I will feel proud and not think that shankara is not consistent with his thinking and is contradicting himself or that no matter what he speaks, truth spills out sometimes and that truth is – Nayarana is supreme. NO. I will not think in this way. I will think positively, as positive thoughts being peace and not negative thoughts. The very purpose of Vedas will be defeated.

    Krushna in Gita says live like Janak. So if you read Ashtavakra Gita, which in on Ajata Vada, you will understand what Krushna says. Similarly, if you read Yog-Vasistha, which is discourse between Rama and Vasista muni, it gives importance to Advaita and even ajata vada. We accept Rama but not statement which Rama himself listened from his guru. Even Maa Sita in Hanumad Gita says that Rama is attributeless and Sita is his Maya and that everyone is trapped in it. We will ignore that Krushna said that I am teaching whatever is there in Upanishads, thereby acknowledging Upanishads and not taking credit from Jnanis and bhaktas, even though he is the creator of entire universe. But it is we who fight on their name, worst, we reject anyone who is trying to spread harmony.

    I do not know about others faiths like VA or Dvaita, so I cannot comment on it, but I feel at any time, a saint may not make contradictions for the sake of contradiction. A deeper meaning has to be understood and attempts has to be made by disciple to think on it positively.

    Another important factor, which may be the deciding factor to withdraw from a debate is ‘GOAL OF LIFE’. If the goal is self realization, then one can ask questions to oneself

    1. Will this debate help me with my spiritual progress
    2. Who is more important, god or ego or person? For God’s sake, I should stop arguring for the one who is not wanting to understand.
    3. Each one is right from his/her POV.


    Please renounce para-dharma. Ego is para-dharma, reject it. Intolerance is not our dharma. Reject it. Ego and intolerance has not place in spirituality. Forget past, today is a new beginning. If we keep ourselves in check, surely HDF will be an e-temple and will project true spirit of Hindu dharma – peace, unconditional love, compassion, truth, tolerance and service to mankind. Let us stick on our true dharma, to love, serve worship God and / or abide in him. There is no other refuge.


    I am not a scholar. There are many scholars and learned members here in HDF. Surely they can help new comers, new-converts all in good spirit.
    I request all respected Brothers and Sisters to kindly think over it.


    Aum
    Indiaspirituality

    Note: I am not an authority in spirituality. opinions and connecting them with shastras like Gita, Ramayana, Mandukya Karika,Yog vasista and Hanumad Gita are my own. There is no intention to hurt any faith. My prostrations to God and Guru.
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Trying to Prove that is beyond proof is waste of time

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality View Post
    3. Each one is right from his/her POV.
    Good luck adopting Jainism.

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    Re: Trying to Prove that is beyond proof is waste of time

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality View Post
    Namaste Brothers and Sisters,



    What proof is needed for God or Brahman. Mandukya says OM is everything. It says Atman is Brahman (correct me if I am wrong). In Gita Bhagavan says, I am OM.

    So OM = Krushna or
    Krushna = OM

    Or if someone says,

    Brahman = Krushna
    Krushna = Brahman

    What difference does it make if I type OM first? Just because I practice Advaita, naturally OM will come first on my lips. A Krushna devotee will naturally remember Krushna first.
    [/I]
    Namaste

    And that sums it up all. The belief and the devotion of an individual is a very personal stream of faith, and this can change only by self realization, though there may be certain catalysts, but one should not cling to changing the belief of other or challenge other's belief. If a soul is very comfortable in his branch of devotion, and others feel it to be wrong, a better way is to let this come naturally.

    You have summed it up all very well. Kudos to you for being this elaborative and clear with your words and thoughts.

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    Re: Trying to Prove that is beyond proof is waste of time

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality View Post

    I do not know about others faiths like VA or Dvaita, so I cannot comment on it
    Yet you keep talking nonsense about dvaita/VA in nearly every post you make...


    Btw, if trying to prove something is a waste, why were the brahma sutras written? Why were the commentarirs by various acharyas written?
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

  5. #5

    Re: Trying to Prove that is beyond proof is waste of time

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality View Post
    Namaste Brothers and Sisters,

    Whenever one tries to prove anything, most probably the discussion becomes a dog fight.
    Oh yeah? Prove it.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: Trying to Prove that is beyond proof is waste of time

    Namaste

    I think experiencing the Divine is more important than trying to prove the Divine. When one experiences this, and another has not, the other may want you to prove it if you speak or act out of that experience.

    But you cannot prove it to them until they also experience it. An authorized path helps and quickens the experience.

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Trying to Prove that is beyond proof is waste of time

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality View Post
    Namaste Brothers and Sisters,

    Whenever one tries to prove anything, most probably the discussion becomes a dog fight. Our goal of life also determines our approach. Our actions and speech are a reflection of our mental status.

    Issues will keep rising unless one accepts that both sides of coin are to be acknowledged. Only one part is stressed (Saguna or nirguna Brahman). Another has to be experienced. Rejecting one side of coin will be like wanting fire but not it’s warmth. They both are inseparable. Please understand that praising one form of God or belief system does not mean defaming degrading other. But then again, this approach may be called neo and so rejected.

    Then how will it bring peace and harmony? We are not living in jungle or in a Himalayan cave that we can hold onto our POV rigidly and that no one is going to interact with us. We live in society and so we have to tolerate all faiths. Biased, hate speeches will do more harm to us then others. Lord Buddha said, ‘Anger is like holding hot coal with the intent of throwing at others’ . If we are not at peace than how can we teach our children and the next generation. What will the future?

    HDF posts and it's content is tossed into the wild very fast and any outsider gets opportunity to ... (I guess you know).

    Our big family may have differences, but do you take your family matter into public?

    Alas, many learned members will keep trying to back their thoughts and no one backs off, as it is win-loose battle for them. Unfortunately no other member one attempts to begin peace.

    Proving supremacy is more of an egg-chicken riddle and proving supremacy that makes things worst. Else one can simply ignore other member’s posts and move on. Some members have bias for one path e.g. advaita or against some acharya. Nothing will happen to Ramanuja or shankara, but it is you whos progress will stop.

    What proof is needed for God or Brahman. Mandukya says OM is everything. It says Atman is Brahman (correct me if I am wrong). In Gita Bhagavan says, I am OM.

    So OM = Krushna or
    Krushna = OM

    Or if someone says,

    Brahman = Krushna
    Krushna = Brahman

    What difference does it make if I type OM first? Just because I practice Advaita, naturally OM will come first on my lips. A Krushna devotee will naturally remember Krushna first.

    God will say both things about saguna and nirguna, but we will keep fighting. Were shastras created for creating controversies? Think?

    There is nothing to prove. Truth remains truth and needs no proof. Truth has to be realized, be it Krushna, Rama, shakti or Brahman. I feel instead of proving anything, better spend more time with God. Better is to start walking then just keep talking, for in this world, you may be victorious, but you will be the last to reach the destination which Vedas point.

    For me, I will feel proud if I see or read that Shankaracharya is praising Vasudeva and accepting him a supreme. To me it is not contradictory. It is out of respect. Though we negate God’s Maya, we do respect God Saguna Ishwara. So if I find shankara praising Narayana, I will feel proud and not think that shankara is not consistent with his thinking and is contradicting himself or that no matter what he speaks, truth spills out sometimes and that truth is – Nayarana is supreme. NO. I will not think in this way. I will think positively, as positive thoughts being peace and not negative thoughts. The very purpose of Vedas will be defeated.

    Krushna in Gita says live like Janak. So if you read Ashtavakra Gita, which in on Ajata Vada, you will understand what Krushna says. Similarly, if you read Yog-Vasistha, which is discourse between Rama and Vasista muni, it gives importance to Advaita and even ajata vada. We accept Rama but not statement which Rama himself listened from his guru. Even Maa Sita in Hanumad Gita says that Rama is attributeless and Sita is his Maya and that everyone is trapped in it. We will ignore that Krushna said that I am teaching whatever is there in Upanishads, thereby acknowledging Upanishads and not taking credit from Jnanis and bhaktas, even though he is the creator of entire universe. But it is we who fight on their name, worst, we reject anyone who is trying to spread harmony.

    I do not know about others faiths like VA or Dvaita, so I cannot comment on it, but I feel at any time, a saint may not make contradictions for the sake of contradiction. A deeper meaning has to be understood and attempts has to be made by disciple to think on it positively.

    Another important factor, which may be the deciding factor to withdraw from a debate is ‘GOAL OF LIFE’. If the goal is self realization, then one can ask questions to oneself

    1. Will this debate help me with my spiritual progress
    2. Who is more important, god or ego or person? For God’s sake, I should stop arguring for the one who is not wanting to understand.
    3. Each one is right from his/her POV.


    Please renounce para-dharma. Ego is para-dharma, reject it. Intolerance is not our dharma. Reject it. Ego and intolerance has not place in spirituality. Forget past, today is a new beginning. If we keep ourselves in check, surely HDF will be an e-temple and will project true spirit of Hindu dharma – peace, unconditional love, compassion, truth, tolerance and service to mankind. Let us stick on our true dharma, to love, serve worship God and / or abide in him. There is no other refuge.


    I am not a scholar. There are many scholars and learned members here in HDF. Surely they can help new comers, new-converts all in good spirit.
    I request all respected Brothers and Sisters to kindly think over it.


    Aum
    Indiaspirituality

    Note: I am not an authority in spirituality. opinions and connecting them with shastras like Gita, Ramayana, Mandukya Karika,Yog vasista and Hanumad Gita are my own. There is no intention to hurt any faith. My prostrations to God and Guru.
    Aum Swastiastu

    You should try that approach when trying to work out 'which way around' the Maha Mantra goes.

    Basically, for Rama Bhaktas, Ram Nam comes first (naturally) and for Krishna Bhaktas, it's vice versa....and here was I thinking Krishna Bhaktas were Rama Bhaktas and vice versa.

    I worked myself up into a real fuss over the 'correct way to say it' until an Old Sage just said : "It doesn't really matter which way it is chanted, as long as it is".

    I figured that "Aum Namah Shivaya" was just less....complicated.

    Whenever I go through 'catharsis tunnel' I always arrive at the Chinese symbol of Yin/Yang.

    If you look at it closely, you will notice a little bit of Yang in the Yin part and a little bit of Yin in the Yang part. This symbolically represents my glorious, beautiful deity, Ardhanareshwar! Jai!!!

    It is also present in the name of my Lord, Kala Bhairava even though Maha Kali in her Divine Form as Bhairavi is His beloved companion.

    This is where Tantra Yoga now comes in.

    As for 'proving anything'? I mean, that is a total farce anyway. At the moment, I cannot prove who I am to the police.

    How can I prove to be even less 'anonymous' over the internet, face it!

    As you were saying, all this 'prove it' is just a huge ego trip. I was dogged by it for years.

    Until, one day I realised I didn't have to....even if the onus was mine to do so.

    Outcome of experiment: Nobody believed me and thought I was just another rambling moron.

    Conclusion: Since when did I ever need people to believe me anyway, or even care what they thought in any regard?

    'Prove it' is the mantra of insecurity.

    Aum Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by Necromancer; 26 April 2013 at 09:20 PM.

  8. #8

    Re: Trying to Prove that is beyond proof is waste of time

    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    Namaste

    I think experiencing the Divine is more important than trying to prove the Divine.
    The wise say that serving the Lord is more important than experiencing Him, if by experience you refer to direct perception. That being said, while I would agree that service and experience are superior to mundane wrangling over the nature of God, the fact remains that Sri Krishna declares a different view in the gItA 18th chapter. Therein, He states that its study is His worship, and that those who teach these secrets are considered the dearest of His devotees. That invariably means teaching specific knowledge, and by the very nature of knowledge, refuting opposite views inconsistent with that knowledge.

    This is not to say that all preaching is in line with Sri Krishna's direction, since the underlying motivation should be His service and glorification, rather than bolstering one's ego. Then again, it has also been my observation that those who downplay the idea of objective truth are usually the ones who tend to adhere to heretical views inconsistent with vedAntic orthodoxy.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: Trying to Prove that is beyond proof is waste of time

    Namaste Indiaspirituality

    Yesterday, inspired by your blog on Understanding Advaita which I found as a result of a link Satay posted in the Dharma related websites section, I became more curious to at least have a fundamental understanding of Advaita Vedanta even though I have no intention of changing my practice which is not Advaitan focus

    So I prayed to Lord Ganesha in my mind before His image, "Hello Ganapati, Welcome to my house, how is Your Father, Mother and Brother? Here is some incense and strawberries, I am wanting to have a better understanding of Advaita so that I will not sound like an idiot in case I have to talk about Hinduism in public. Do You have any suggestions?"...

    An hour later I was on the internet searcing the Images Tab of Altavista for some graphics I could usr for the website Wonders of India I am working, graphic related to India Folk Art.

    Oddly, one of the first links I pathed into was an article on the Ashtavakra Gita by Sage Ashtavaka, and it was pointed out the style and syntax of Sanskrit used mark this religious scripture as very ancient.

    I just noticed now, going back to post 1 in this thread, that you make reference to it.

    Why do I mention this Ashtavakra Gita?

    Well, while I didn't want to distract from your theme in this thread, my idea in regards to "trying to prove (xyz)" to someone else who is not on the same page as you is often extremely difficult if you take the approach of throwing quotes from scripture at them, especially if you are one member in the huge and diverse family of Hinduism. That really the only way you are going to "prove" something to someone like that is if you can help them have the same experience, which is alive and not just words, then they understand.

    There is a saying in the US, "I am from Missouri" which sort of means "prove it by letting me see it", "show me, don't just tell me".

    For example actually experiencing Seva to your Lord rather than just being adamant at the "shot gun" approach to scriptural quotation and declaring "winner" (of what?). Sometimes those who take the later approach become frustrated and call the other a "heretic" which outside of cow killing and karma is sort of an extreme form of frustrated name calling that is actuall rather odd since within the diversity of ths Family an adherence to one Hindu God or another that is not the same as yours is not heresy.

    Having found this Ashtavakra Gita, I now have to temper my understanding somewhat.

    It looks like in fact there are some scriptures or words in text if you will which are so definitive, concise, deep and broad yet even a novice can be taken quickly to the conclusions despite being "advanced", and this is an example of that. It is also an example of what a great teacher and exponent of what I think I would call Advaita Vedanta is this Sage Ashtavakra!

    For someone as me, I am not going to take up Advaita Vedanta for many reasons, but I do have to say that I was wrong in that indeed, sometimes scripture can be as powerful as experience.

    All the best

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Trying to Prove that is beyond proof is waste of time

    Namaste Philosoraptor

    Thank you for this observation that serving the Lord is more important than experiencing Him. Actually, when I was writing of "Hinduism as an experience", that is in alignment with what you speak of. I have also been taught that serving the Lord is the most important, more important than being the best at quoting scriptures and such. I include this as part of what was meant by "experience" - in my mind I was seeing the incense being offered, the chances such as making garlands, seeing the face light up in someone who is observing an art depiction or poster of the the Divine and seeing something "light up" in them almost like a child, and then very carefully trying to bring them into the "experience" (I sort of see this as seva, too) and so on.

    I do not discount the teachers, Gurus, priests, mystics, Saints and so on. THEY ARE ALSO PART OF THIS EXPERIENCE FOR LAYMEN SUCH AS MYSELF.

    As I also noted to Indiaspirituality, and in my later response, suddenly I found a scripture which fully met my desire to find a concise source that would give me an understanding of Advaita. I found it or it was given to me. Which then added more perspective to my concepts or teachings - that indeed there are cases when a scripture can have the ability to convince even those who do not agree but have the good soul (and not the ugly soul) to seek out the Divine. So now I also see, that scripture can also be very powerful in this manner. In this example, even though the Ashtavakra Gita by Sage Ashtavaka is highly advanced in nature, sometimes there is an assumption that because it is such then laymen such as myself cannot understand it. But it is the ability of such a Sage to put the words so perfectly that even though it is advanced even an idiot such as myself can quickly make immense progress in comprehension. The words of this Sage were captured in scripture, and are so powerful yet so clear that it can give a clear vision of the purport.

    I do have to say, as part of telling the truth of the matter, that even though one can comprehend the purport, that does not mean that one will change a practice already in motion. My practice will not change. I am not an Advaitan. However, I now understand clearly. I must continue on what was perhaps my destiny to follow the path that was clearly given to me, so that will not change. That path includes Bhakti - but keep in mind, my school is not the same as yours, but I do not discount yours if you give your service and devotion to another, be it a Saint or Divine Lord. Remember also, within the Saiva tradition is a great tradition of Bhakti - an example would be Bhakti to Lord Muruga, that perhaps many are not familiar with.

    I am not saying your path is Bhakti - I don't know your path, but I suspect it could be. Definetly devotion and service, from EXPERIENCE, shows that THE BEST PATH FOR WESTERNERS IS BHAKTI YOGA. I am speaking specifically in terms of Western Hindus.

    Om Namah Sivaya

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    The wise say that serving the Lord is more important than experiencing Him, if by experience you refer to direct perception. That being said, while I would agree that service and experience are superior to mundane wrangling over the nature of God, the fact remains that Sri Krishna declares a different view in the gItA 18th chapter. Therein, He states that its study is His worship, and that those who teach these secrets are considered the dearest of His devotees. That invariably means teaching specific knowledge, and by the very nature of knowledge, refuting opposite views inconsistent with that knowledge.

    This is not to say that all preaching is in line with Sri Krishna's direction, since the underlying motivation should be His service and glorification, rather than bolstering one's ego. Then again, it has also been my observation that those who downplay the idea of objective truth are usually the ones who tend to adhere to heretical views inconsistent with vedAntic orthodoxy.

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