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Thread: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

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    Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste everyone,
    In another thread titled "does not exist..." under Science and Religion section, one of the honorable HDF members claimed that in the Bhagavad Gita Sri Krishna himself tells that varna is based on birth. So i took the liberty of starting a new thread in order to refute the claims. The moderator can remove this thread if it violates any rules since the thread being referred is under admin review.
    here is the actual quote
    "Quote: Sanjaya said
    Secondly, I believe that your portrayal of the Hindu varna system is not accurate.

    Nara replied:
    It is here that I think I am on most firm ground. The Moguls are not to blame. The English are not to blame. Hindus, and the upper caste in particular, have to stand up and take responsibility and make amends.

    Lord Sri Krishna in Srimat BG, with what he said and what he did not say, clearly indicates Varna is inherited by birth. Among Arjuna’s fears was that the war will result in the women being unprotected and consequently get raped, which will then result in Varna sangraha. Arjuna cites clan elders as the source of his views.

    So, this was the prevalent thinking at that time, namely, if women get raped, varna sangharaha will result. This can be so only if Varna results from birth. In the succeeding 17 chapters, Lord Sri Krishna gives answers to many of Arjuna’s questions, never once does he dissuade him of this view. But Lord Sri Krishna goes even further. In chapter 9, he says, even the ones of sinful birth, such as vaishya, sudra and women, can attain moksham by surrendering to him, so surely Arjuna of punya birth certainly can. So, Lord Sri Krishna clearly teaches that Varna results from birth which itself is determined by punya and papa.

    So, if BG is to be believed, then for Lord Sri Krishna, varana is birth based. If you visit kamakoti.org, there is a full chapter on this question affirming that varna/jati is based strictly on birth. This is a core value of the Vedic religion that we call Hinduism today.

    If you look at scientific evidence gleaned from archeology, DNA, etc. it is clear that there is no pure varna, everything is mixed up. As you say, there have been movements across the varna lines. But that is science. Religious doctrine requires birth based Varna purity and an elaborate scheme of punishments are stipulated for transgressors. Further, the present day keepers of Brahmin orthodoxy still maintain they can trace their pure genealogy back to the vedic rishees. What this shows, I leave it to you.
    "
    The actual verse where Sri Krishna speaks about the Varnashrama is Chapter 4 verse 13 which states

    "cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ
    guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ
    tasya kartāram api māḿ
    viddhy akartāram avyayam
    "
    translation
    "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."

    Here clearly Sri Krishna states the principle of the varna system which is based totally on guna(modes) and Karma.
    Nowhere has Sri Krishna mentioned the word janana(birth).

    "It is here that I think I am on most firm ground.
    Lord Sri Krishna in Srimat BG, with what he said and what he did not say, clearly indicates Varna is inherited by birth.
    So, if BG is to be believed, then for Lord Sri Krishna, varana is birth based"
    I think this verse is enough to refute all the above claims. please feel free to refute in case anyone thinks the above verse does not convey what it already has.

    meaning of the Sanskrit words
    cātuḥ-varṇyam — the four divisions of human society; mayā — by Me; sṛṣṭam — created; guṇa — of quality; karma — and work; vibhāgaśaḥin terms of division; tasya — of that; kartāram — the Creator; api — although; māmMe; viddhi — you may know; akartāramas the nondoer; avyayam — unchangeable.

    Best Regards,
    mukunda

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste Mukunda,

    Thanks for the verse's reality.

    There are other verses too which show that Varna is based on Guna and Karma and not by birth :

    The Brahmin should have these gunas by nature :

    Shamo damstapah shaucham kshaantirarjavameva cha |
    Jnaanam vijnaanamaastikyam brahmakarma swabhawjam || 18. 42 ||

    The Kshtriya should have these :

    Shauryam tejo dhritirdaakshyam yuddhe chaapypalaayanam |
    daanamishwarbhaavascha khsaatram karma svabhaavajam || 18.43 ||

    The Vaishya and Shudras should have these gunas by nature :

    krishigaurkshyavaaNijyam vaishyakarma swabhaavjam |
    paricharyaatmakam karma shudrasyaapi svabhaavajam || 18. 44 ||

    000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

    Lord Krishna nowhere says that varna is decided by birth alone. Though the birth to a particular family, place & culture is certainly decided by one's karma in his previous birth, but varna depends basically on guna and karma & thus can change depending upon his Guna and Karma in this birth.

    Verses in Chapter 1 were spoken by Arjuna & not by Lord Krishna. Verse 9.32 doesn't say that the varna is by birth !

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 19 March 2010 at 07:27 AM. Reason: correction in verse no
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #3

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding


    But Lord Sri Krishna goes even further. In chapter 9, he says, even the ones of sinful birth, such as vaishya, sudra and women, can attain moksham by surrendering to him
    OM
    Dandvats
    He doesnt say women sudra and vaishya are sinful births he seperates them as different classes eg sinful birth, vaishy, sudra, women.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam devotee

    I have been down this route quite a lot, so I try and be brief.

    Perhaps you can tell us all at what age the training of a child in their respective varna should begin?

    With your perception there is a possibility of all 4 varna in theory, in one single family, assuming you know that in olden days there were different quarters for each varna, remnants off which you would still find in the villages or even a big town. So how do you separate the family?

    Arjun’s fear of Varna Shankar and consequently kula dharma degradation would be point less since you wan’t be able to establish what tradition that could be, because by your reckoning it could be any one of the four.
    But we know his tradition is kshatriya class. how is that possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee
    but varna depends basically on guna and karma & thus can change depending upon his Guna and Karma in this birth.
    But then this would be in direct conflict with what Lord Krishna say
    It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly.

    You are proposing a change can happen yet Krishna is against it.

    Who can perfectly judge the varna of an individual thus my opening question to you?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste GP ji,

    I think we have already discussed this issue once & I couldn't convince you. So, going again the same way is not going to result in anything better.

    I won't say that you are wrong and I alone am right in interpretation of verses. However, if you see the verses in the light of the basic expectations from God, you may get to know why I interpret the way I do :

    a) When we talk of Karma, we tend to think of Karma of the past alone. My Guru ji says that this thinking is not correct. Your present Karmas are not less valuable than your past karmas. The Karma of this life can offset the Karma of our previous lives.

    The above has a logical side also. If the above is not true then it paints a grim and hopeless picture for the present life. My Guru ji says that it is not the case.

    b) If Varna by birth theory was correct then you would not have found people sometimes even more intelligent and pious in a so-called lower caste than in a brahmin by birth. Similarly, then all Brahmins must have been born with the Gunas & nature as told by Lord Krishna in Chapter 18 of BG.

    We know that it is not so.

    c) Lord Krishna says that people should do the karma which is natural to their nature .... so, it must be natural to the nature of the man irrespective of his birth ? I have not seen that the birth in a particular caste decides one's nature and guna.

    d) Yes, Arjuna does mention about Varnashankara being born out of women who would get spoiled after war. But again, it can be seen in the manner I see it. If there is no control on sex then the birth of a child would not be due to marriage of a man & woman of the same varna (i.e. same guna, karma and nature) but just a result of lust without matching qualities of a man & woman for marriage. So, such a child is certainly varnashankara. We can expect that the children born would also learn similar traits from their parents & that would be painful to everyone including their ancestors.

    This can be seen in western society ... how much restlessness has it produced for people who follow such a lifestyle.

    e) The great saints in Hindu society have embraced people from all castes. There are many saints who were not born to brahmin parents like Saint Ravidas, Kabir etc.

    Again, these are solely my views & I am firm on this. Right from my childhood, I never differentiated people on the basis of castes and had a close friend too who was from so-called untouchable caste. I got scolded by my parents many a times on this account ... but I was like that. In fact, the biggest hurdle for me to accept BG as divine word of God was these verses which bothered me a lot. I could find my peace only when I translated them in the manner I explained to you.

    So, there is nothing which can change my views. You may have your own interpretation ... & still we can be friends.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam devotee ji

    Nice explanation of your understanding and I respect that
    Why should frendship be questioned just because we have different views on Varna?

    So, there is nothing which can change my views. You may have your own interpretation ... & still we can be friends.
     
    In this circumstances there is no need for further discussion.
    Yes you have made a nice plea for your understanding and I respect that, unfortunately my questioned that I had asked remains unanswered.

    There is only one question that was posed by you which I shall try my best to answer

    b) If Varna by birth theory was correct then you would not have found people sometimes even more intelligent and pious in a so-called lower caste than in a brahmin by birth. Similarly, then all Brahmins must have been born with the Gunas & nature as told by Lord Krishna in Chapter 18 of BG.

    We know that it is not so.
     
     
    The lofty ideals that Lord Shree Krishna mentioned in BG are what one has to cultivate but if you think anyone has imbibed all of it in 100% then you will find none would qualify for that post.

    After taking such a birth, O Arjuna, one regains the knowledge acquired in the previous life, and strives again to achieve perfection. (6.43)

    Birth affords the only measurable prerequisite for determining how a child should be trained. There is no other authority to determine the varna, your proposal is very subjective.

    A Brahmin is accorded a great deal of respect as per our dharma-Shastra, but those same dharma-Shastra place extremely high expectations on him. He can't fulfil those expectations if he is not raised as a Brahmin from birth, which means having Brahmin parents who can also lead by example. Yet if we fail and that is great possibility in this degraded age, again the karma will determine our next birth and there is no guarantee it will be human.

    The highest knowledge of saMnyAsAshrama declares that all men are equal in the eye of god, and that varNa, Ashrama, and ultimately even dharma, are superfluous constructs. But this esoteric wisdom has unfortunately become exoteric dogma in some non-brAhmaNa circles, and the dismissal of varNAshrama dharma is especially favored by aspirants who were born without dvija varNa (by our own Sarbhnga)

    I will leave you with two example for you to contemplate. One Drona who had great Kshtriya skill and other BhismaPita a great Kshtriya but had wisdom better then most yet Dronacharya is a Brahmin and Bhismapita is Kshtriya, neither saw any reason to be known by their vocation but their birth was and is their Pahechan or identity.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste Ganeshprasad ji,

    Sorry, I forgot to answer your questions. Yes, I have answers to all your questions as these questions bothered my too. And whether I may satisfy others or not, I have to satisfy myself fully that my interpretations are the correct interpretation & it is not only for keeping myself deluded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Perhaps you can tell us all at what age the training of a child in their respective varna should begin?
    How is the child to be trained & when ? Who can decide it better than his Guru ? Let Guru decide whether he has to be trained as a Brahmin, a Khastriya, a Vaishya or a ShUdra. Perhaps the question which bothers you is how do you identify these traits at such early stage of life ?

    See, the Brahmin is the highest state ... and unless the desired laskhanas are clearly visible, the training as Brahmin can wait. He has to learn many other traits of other varnas & that itself will take considerable time. The child should be with Guru for 25 years of age & Guru may decide at what stage a child is so exceptional that he is fit to be trained as a Brahmin.

    In fact, the brahminhood should be the highest degree that should be conferred on a student. At the time of passing out, the Guru would declare a student as a Brahmin, a Kshatriya, a Vaishya or a ShUdra … depending upon their academic performance. Just imagine, if that is done, how perfect our society will be.

    With your perception there is a possibility of all 4 varna in theory, in one single family, assuming you know that in olden days there were different quarters for each varna, remnants off which you would still find in the villages or even a big town. So how do you separate the family?
    Ah ! That is not due to varna but due to caste system. The system is prevalent in non-Hindus too. The rich and poor always lives different colonies. There is no question of separation of family members. Every Varna is respectable ... why should we need separation at all ?

    It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly.
    I fully agree with Lord Krishna. One should be trained in an occupation which comes natural to his gunas acquired by birth. It doesn’t support Varna by birth theory.

    You are proposing a change can happen yet Krishna is against it.
    There is no verse from Krishna in BG supporting that Krishna even recognizes varna by birth theory.

    Who can perfectly judge the varna of an individual thus my opening question to you?
    The Guru, I answered above.

    000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

    The lofty ideals that Lord Shree Krishna mentioned in BG are what y one has to cultivate but if you think anyone has imbibed all of it in 100% then you will find none would qualify for that post.
    Does Krishna say that these are lofty ideals & even if these traits are 0 % present, he should do the varna/caste's duty as decided by his birth ? What would happen if we have a Kshatriya who is afraid to fight, A Brahmin who is dumb-headed, a Vaishya who has knowledge of all the Vedas but cannot be a good trader, a ShUdra who is a great fighter ? Just imagine what would have happened, if we had trained APJ Abdul Kalam Azad, Issac Newton, Einstein as ShUdra as they were Avarna by birth ?? Or Gautam Buddha as a warrior ?? Krishna himself was a yadava by birth … he had no need to learn to fight as a Kshatriya & never try to teach anyone like a Brahmana … but he fought as a great warrior in wars & even taught highest philosophy to Arjuna … why didn’t he keep himself busy in milking cows & selling the milk and milk products ?

    After taking such a birth, O Arjuna, one regains the knowledge acquired in the previous life, and strives again to achieve perfection. (6.43)
    Perfectly correct ! How does it support the Varna by birth theory ?

    The highest knowledge of saMnyAsAshrama declares that all men are equal in the eye of god, and that varNa, Ashrama, and ultimately even dharma, are superfluous constructs. But this esoteric wisdom has unfortunately become exoteric dogma in some non-brAhmaNa circles, and the dismissal of varNAshrama dharma is especially favored by aspirants who were born without dvija varNa (by our own Sarbhnga)
    Tell me one thing, Ganeshprasad ji, all your fathers’ children as you know them today should have been trained only the occupation as decided by their birth to certain family or as decided by their intellectual capabilities and natural instincts ? Think of your children, your friends’ and relatives’ children and you will realize that varna by birth theory could have done irreparable damage to those children and to the society. If varna by birth theory is correct and supported by God Himself, then it must apply to all races, in all times and in all lands. It is certainly not so.

    I will leave you with two example for you to contemplate. One Drona who had great Kshtriya skill and other BhismaPita a great Kshtriya but had wisdom better then most yet Dronacharya is a Brahmin and Bhismapita is Kshtriya, neither saw any reason to be known by their vocation but their birth was and is their Pahechan or identity.
    Drona is Brahmin not only by birth but also by his natural instincts. The teacher has to know all skills … otherwise how will he teach different skills to children ? So, only being an exceptional warrior doesn’t put him in the category of a Kshatriya. Who taught the dhanurvidyaa to children in Ashrama ? The Brahmin teacher. Bhishmapitaamah is basically a warrior … he was never a teacher.

    Actually, what I feel that in the past, it might not make any difference whether you apply varna by birth theory or varna by inherent instinct (guana) … I don’t know. Perhaps, God used to decide births in that way in those times. It is quite possible that during the time of Mahabhaarta, this was the accepted theory in the society. However, that doesn’t prove that it was correct or had the sanction of God Himself. May be, Mahabharata war could have never taken place if Arjuna would not have ridiculed & humiliated Karna as Sootputra.

    When we read BG chapter 1 & see Arjuna expressing his great fear of births of varnashankaras etc. … why Krishna downplays it and doesn’t consider it a fit question to be answered at all ?? Why ?
    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 20 March 2010 at 10:33 PM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam devotee ji

    How is the child to be trained & when ? Who can decide it better than his Guru ? Let Guru decide whether he has to be trained as a Brahmin, a Khastriya, a Vaishya or a ShUdra. Perhaps the question which bothers you is how do you identify these traits at such early stage of life ?
    No my friend non of the question bothers me. First let me correct you, however unpalatable it may sound, sudra had no formal traing in gurukul. Only three varna had upnayana sanskara given. A Brahmin receives this sanskara at the age of 8, kshatriya at 11, and vaisya at 12.
    Please let us not have our personal opinion cloud our judgment, if you can provide any scripture evidence contrarily to what I have quoted please do so.

    See, the Brahmin is the highest state ... and unless the desired laskhanas are clearly visible, the training as Brahmin can wait. He has to learn many other traits of other varnas & that itself will take considerable time. The child should be with Guru for 25 years of age & Guru may decide at what stage a child is so exceptional that he is fit to be trained as a Brahmin.
    Here again you are speculating. When a boy receive upanaya sansar that when the gayatri is given and only consideration of giving this sansar is the Gotra of the pupil, after that training in respective varna begins and for a Brahmin boy it begins between 5to 8 years.
    If you are able to site any example that Guru having given gayatri to a Brahmin boy but declared him any different varna please give example.

    In fact, the brahminhood should be the highest degree that should be conferred on a student. At the time of passing out, the Guru would declare a student as a Brahmin, a Kshatriya, a Vaishya or a ShUdra … depending upon their academic performance. Just imagine, if that is done, how perfect our society will be.
    Wow, I don’t think you have understood how it was in the olden days, you are making your judgement based on today’s sorry state of the varna. Nor do you understand the implications of your recipe.
     
     
    Ah ! That is not due to varna but due to caste system. The system is prevalent in non-Hindus too. The rich and poor always lives different colonies. There is no question of separation of family members. Every Varna is respectable ... why should we need separation at all ?
    Well that’s how it was, they had separate areas, a Brahmin would not eat or drink from another varna, you are proposing in a same household different varna living, so can you imaging father saying to his son sorry mate I cant eat at your food you are not a Brahmin, ah! I can’t merry you a Brahmin girl, how do I arrange your marriage I don’t know any other varna. what is our ancestry would be, son we have no kula how can we? it could any one of the four.

    Quote:
    It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly.
    I fully agree with Lord Krishna. One should be trained in an occupation which comes natural to his gunas acquired by birth. It doesn’t support Varna by birth theory.
    We certainly are reading it differently

    Quote:
    You are proposing a change can happen yet Krishna is against it.
    There is no verse from Krishna in BG supporting that Krishna even recognizes varna by birth theory.
    What kind of answer is this, you had suggested varna can change like you would change nappies but I said in Chapter 18 Sri Krishna was talking about duties of Varnas. If you are kshatriya, then it is better to do kshatriya darma even poorly than brahmana darma perfectly.
     
     
     
    What would happen if we have a Kshatriya who is afraid to fight, A Brahmin who is dumb-headed, a Vaishya who has knowledge of all the Vedas but cannot be a good trader, a ShUdra who is a great fighter ?
    Good question, Dhitrasra was unfit to be a king yet he inharited the kingdom, a vaishya even if he was a learned guy he would still be counting money.
    if a Brahmin or kshtriya or any one who did not live up to the standard, by all intend and purpose he is just that varna in name only and has to live with the shame of it and face the conscious at the end of his life. Take for instance ashvasthama he is refered as Brahmin by Drupadi even after his heinous act.
     
    Or Gautam Buddha as a warrior ?? Krishna himself was a yadava by birth … he had no need to learn to fight as a Kshatriya & never try to teach anyone like a Brahmana … but he fought as a great warrior in wars & even taught highest philosophy to Arjuna … why didn’t he keep himself busy in milking cows & selling the milk and milk products ?
    You need to take care and not mistake yadavas for cowherds, if you research you will find yadayas are kshtriya
     
    Quote:
    After taking such a birth, O Arjuna, one regains the knowledge acquired in the previous life, and strives again to achieve perfection. (6.43)
    Perfectly correct ! How does it support the Varna by birth theory ?
    You need to read previous verse and contemplate, also to understand that our birth in certain family is not random occurrence or accident.
     
    Tell me one thing, Ganeshprasad ji, all your fathers’ children as you know them today should have been trained only the occupation as decided by their birth to certain family or as decided by their intellectual capabilities and natural instincts ? Think of your children, your friends’ and relatives’ children and you will realize that varna by birth theory could have done irreparable damage to those children and to the society.
    I really do not understand what you are on about.

    If varna by birth theory is correct and supported by God Himself, then it must apply to all races, in all times and in all lands. It is certainly not so.
    Other then the four varna there always were different class of people in the world like malecha and yavanas what to talk about them even in the time of Ram there were adivasi belonging to no varna why is that you will have to ask God for that.but in Vedic society that is how it was.
     
     
    Drona is Brahmin not only by birth but also by his natural instincts. The teacher has to know all skills … otherwise how will he teach different skills to children ? So, only being an exceptional warrior doesn’t put him in the category of a Kshatriya. Who taught the dhanurvidyaa to children in Ashrama ? The Brahmin teacher. Bhishmapitaamah is basically a warrior … he was never a teacher.
    Drona had no business fighting in a war yet he did, did not change his status, Bhismapita was a kshatriya by birth yet he had wisdom better then a Brahmin yet he was known as Kshatriya, do you not see the point?

    Actually, what I feel that in the past, it might not make any difference whether you apply varna by birth theory or varna by inherent instinct (guana) … I don’t know. Perhaps, God used to decide births in that way in those times. It is quite possible that during the time of Mahabhaarta, this was the accepted theory in the society. However, that doesn’t prove that it was correct or had the sanction of God Himself. May be, Mahabharata war could have never taken place if Arjuna would not have ridiculed & humiliated Karna as Sootputra.
    There are a lots of if, buts and may be, and if it was true (which I believe it was) why do you think that parampara would not be carried forward?

    When we read BG chapter 1 & see Arjuna expressing his great fear of births of varnashankaras etc. … why Krishna downplays it and doesn’t consider it a fit question to be answered at all ?? Why ?
    OM
    I am not going to speculate

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    First let me correct you, however unpalatable it may sound, sudra had no formal traing in gurukul. Only three varna had upnayana sanskara given. A Brahmin receives this sanskara at the age of 8, kshatriya at 11, and vaisya at 12.
    Agreed. But that is what was happening. Does it prove that it was sanctioned by God ?

    Here again you are speculating. When a boy receive upanaya sansar that when the gayatri is given and only consideration of giving this sansar is the Gotra of the pupil, after that training in respective varna begins and for a Brahmin boy it begins between 5to 8 years.
    If you are able to site any example that Guru having given gayatri to a Brahmin boy but declared him any different varna please give example.
    You are again talking of the caste system that was prevalent in the society. You didn't ask me what was happening in what time. You asked me what should happen and when.

    Wow, I don’t think you have understood how it was in the olden days, you are making your judgement based on today’s sorry state of the varna. Nor do you understand the implications of your recipe.
    "Olden days" --- how much old history is known to you for sure ? No one can say that this was the exact history after a lapse of more than 1000 years. People are not sure even for 200-300 years back and here we are claiming for more than 5000 years of history !

    Nor do you understand the implications of your recipe.
    This remark has condescending overtones. I didn't expect it from you. If you think I am so dumb that I don't understand the implications of what I am saying then there is no point in engaging me in a discussion.

    Well that’s how it was, they had separate areas, a Brahmin would not eat or drink from another varna, you are proposing in a same household different varna living, so can you imaging father saying to his son sorry mate I cant eat at your food you are not a Brahmin, ah! I can’t merry you a Brahmin girl, how do I arrange your marriage I don’t know any other varna. what is our ancestry would be, son we have no kula how can we? it could any one of the four.
    For being so sure ... please make sure that what you say existed in Hindu society even more than 5000 years ago. Are you sure ?

    What kind of answer is this, you had suggested varna can change like you would change nappies
    This again is not my words. Did I say this ?

    I said in Chapter 18 Sri Krishna was talking about duties of Varnas. If you are kshatriya, then it is better to do kshatriya darma even poorly than brahmana darma perfectly.
    Please show me even one verse which says that son of a Brahmin should work only as a Brahmin ... or son of a Kshatriya should only work as a Kshatriya ?
     
    [qyuote]Take for instance ashvasthama he is refered as Brahmin by Drupadi even after his heinous act. [/quote]

    Did I ask a quote from Draupadi or anyone like that ? Please quote Lord Krishna from BG.

    You need to take care and not mistake yadavas for cowherds, if you research you will find yadayas are kshtriya
    You should not think that the person you are discussing with has no knowledge. Please read history & find out how the so called "Kshatriya caste was manipulated" in the past. If Yadavas was Kshatriyas, then we need to redefine Vaishya and Kshatriya varna again.  

    You need to read previous verse and contemplate, also to understand that our birth in certain family is not random occurrence or accident.
     
    This is no way to discuss. You are giving verdict that only you are capable of understanding the verses correctly. If that is the attitude, why are we discussing it at all ? My dear friend, I cannot tell about you but I have read Gita like Newton's Laws of Motion for a a student of Mechanics .... not each and every verse but each and every word has been analysed thoroughly and understood.

    I really do not understand what you are on about.
    You may understand if you want to.

    Other then the four varna there always were different class of people in the world like malecha and yavanas what to talk about them even in the time of Ram there were adivasi belonging to no varna why is that you will have to ask God for that.but in Vedic society that is how it was.
     
    So, question is can a mlechha be a brahmin or a kshatriya or whatever ? If not, what should they do ? If they were also created by God ... by your logic everyone should work strictly according to either of the varnas he belongs to .... how these mlechhas & yavanas fit in there ? Was Lord Krishna God only the Hindus ?? 

    Drona had no business fighting in a war yet he did, did not change his status, Bhismapita was a kshatriya by birth yet he had wisdom better then a Brahmin yet he was known as Kshatriya, do you not see the point?
    I certainly see it differently.

    There are a lots of if, buts and may be, and if it was true (which I believe it was) why do you think that parampara would not be carried forward?
    Because this will certainly lead us to hell.

    BTW, keeping in view your sentiments in your last post, I quit this discussion here.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #10
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam devotee ji

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad
    First let me correct you, however unpalatable it may sound, sudra had no formal training in gurukul. Only three varna had upnayana sanskara given. A Brahmin receives this sanskara at the age of 8, kshatriya at 11, and vaisya at 12.
    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Ganeshprasadji,



    Agreed. But that is what was happening. Does it prove that it was sanctioned by God ?
    That was and is the Vedic reality, sanction by God or not, he set up the varna system that much is clear.

    Rest is our personal opinion which is proving to be difficult, not wishing to encroach on your feelings as well as a lot of people who find caste system a blot on Hindu Dharam,for which i bag your pardon.

    I shall also desist from further discussion on this post as well as the forum, until i have completed my forthcoming pilgrimage, and hope fully atone for my trespasses.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Last edited by Ganeshprasad; 22 March 2010 at 06:17 AM.
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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