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Thread: On Liberation from Samsara

  1. #1
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    On Liberation from Samsara

    Greetings folks,

    You encounter a happy-go-lucky ordinary man who challenges you thus:

    "I find samsara, this earthly life, rather enjoyable. My family is healthy and well off. My job is great. My son and daughter are well settled. My wife and I are a great couple. I have no need of a better afterlife whether that be positively blissful or completely devoid of pain as its content. I have all the bliss I need here and now. As a result, I will NOT enquire into Brahman as enjoined by Brahmasutras 1.1.1. (Athatho Brahmajigyasa - Thus, let us enquire into Brahman) and neither should you!"

    How will you respond to him?

    I have posted this in the general philosophy section. So, ALL are welcome to contribute.

    Looking forward to your responses.

  2. #2
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    Re: On Liberation from Samsara

    Nothing. We say, "Very good for you".

    The first sutra of the sAriraka mimAmsa commences with 'athAtho', which means, 'then, therefore'. Thus, the sutrA enjoins that the nature of Brahman is to be enquired by a person who, after having learned the vedA and vedAngAs and experienced the fruits of such studies and endeavors, realises that these fruits are transient and petty. Then, therefore, he enquires into the nature of Brahman, which is eternal and the source of unlimited bliss.

    The person in the hypothetical question has not reached this stage, which disqualifies him as an aspirant of vedAntA. He will eventually realise that this happy life is temporary. Though it may take him several lifetimes, his punya will be exhausted sometime. Then, he will begin his inquiry.

    The story of Saubhari Muni is an example for this.
    [CENTER][COLOR="Black"][COLOR="Red"][COLOR="DarkRed"]No holiness rules over my freedom
    No commands from above I obey
    I seek the ruin, I shake the worlds
    Behold! I am blackest ov the black

    Ov khaos I am, the disobediant one
    Depraved son who hath dwelt in nothingness
    Upon the ninth I fell, from grace up above
    To taste this life ov sin, to give birth to the "I"[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]

    [B]~ "Blackest Ov the Black" - Behemoth.[/B]

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P-JdwtK1DY[/url] [/CENTER]

  3. #3

    Re: On Liberation from Samsara

    agree with Sri Vaishnava - that answer was perfect. And may I just say, welcome back to HDF!
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: On Liberation from Samsara

    I will probably ask him, "What assurance you have got that the good fortune you have been experiencing will continue always? Don't you feel the need to praise the almighty who has been thus blessing you and worship him for being so merciful to you and to have your fortune continued through generations to come?".
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: On Liberation from Samsara

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Greetings folks,

    You encounter a happy-go-lucky ordinary man who challenges you thus:

    "I find samsara, this earthly life, rather enjoyable. My family is healthy and well off. My job is great. My son and daughter are well settled. My wife and I are a great couple. I have no need of a better afterlife whether that be positively blissful or completely devoid of pain as its content. I have all the bliss I need here and now. As a result, I will NOT enquire into Brahman as enjoined by Brahmasutras 1.1.1. (Athatho Brahmajigyasa - Thus, let us enquire into Brahman) and neither should you!"

    How will you respond to him?

    I have posted this in the general philosophy section. So, ALL are welcome to contribute.

    Looking forward to your responses.
    Dear wundermonk,


    No learned would like to respond to such message as he doesn’t meet the prerequisite to Vedanta (He is not an Adhikari or Authority to Brahma Vidya).

    I find
    My family
    My JOB
    My son and daughter
    My wife and I
    I have no need of
    I have all the bliss I need here and now
    I will NOT enquire into Brahman..... etc..

    Sounds like he is caught up in the Double darkness of Vidya, which is dangerous than Avidya(Ignorance)

    "It's always possible to wake someone from sleep, but no amount of noise will wake someone who is pretending to be asleep."- Jonathan Safran Foer. Love


    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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    Re: On Liberation from Samsara

    Quote Originally Posted by Sri Vaishnava View Post
    Nothing. We say, "Very good for you".

    The first sutra of the sAriraka mimAmsa commences with 'athAtho', which means, 'then, therefore'. Thus, the sutrA enjoins that the nature of Brahman is to be enquired by a person who, after having learned the vedA and vedAngAs and experienced the fruits of such studies and endeavors, realises that these fruits are transient and petty. Then, therefore, he enquires into the nature of Brahman, which is eternal and the source of unlimited bliss.

    The person in the hypothetical question has not reached this stage, which disqualifies him as an aspirant of vedAntA. He will eventually realise that this happy life is temporary. Though it may take him several lifetimes, his punya will be exhausted sometime. Then, he will begin his inquiry.

    The story of Saubhari Muni is an example for this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja
    I will probably ask him, "What assurance you have got that the good fortune you have been experiencing will continue always? Don't you feel the need to praise the almighty who has been thus blessing you and worship him for being so merciful to you and to have your fortune continued through generations to come?".
    Good points.

    The purpose, as I intended, in this thread would be to discuss the nature of soteriology as conceived by various schools.

    In short, the Nyaya conception of moksha is a negative state. This follows from its position that consciousness is an adventitious property of the self that emerges in it contingent on the self being embodied. In moksha, the self is devoid of a body and hence there is no cognition in moksha! As a result, moksha is described as "absence of pain/pleasure", in fact, moksha is absence of any cognition whatsoever.

    This view was criticized by other schools (Advaita and other theistic schools) as useless because no one would be motivated to undertake scriptural studies if moksha is described thus. What is the difference between the state of moksha as envisaged by Nyaya and a dead lifeless stone?

    The theistic schools of Vedanta and Advaita concurred that moksha is a positively blissful state. The veil of "maya/avidya" is broken so that the self attains its natural state of positive bliss.

    Now, this view of moksha seems better than the Nyaya conception because it would atleast be possible to motivate people towards Advaita/Dvaita/VA because the summum bonum is a positively happy state.

    Yet, Nyaya brought about a variety of arguments against this.

    For one, the Nyaya argued that if desire for moksha would arise in an individual because moksha is a positively blissful state AND it is simultaneously held that bondage in samsara is due to desire for something, then the very concept of moksha becomes contradictory. So, for everything else, desire causes bondage to samsara - yet desire for moksha is capable of burning Karma? The Nyaya can rightfully claim that this is special pleading.

    We can explore arguments between all sides to this dispute over the nature of moksha in due course.

    Thanks.

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    Re: On Liberation from Samsara

    My take :

    The purpose of scriptural study, understanding, living is to attain blissful state of mind.

    There are several layers of blissful states. A person desiring of a particular state of material needs - gets those - he is in blissful state. This desire moves from one level to another.

    In blissful states at those level, a person achieves a state of stability of mind. Once the need is gone, next desire comes up. So he moves to the next level of mental bliss or stability. Most of these state of mind is out of two factors GET or GET RID OF i.e. acquiring or disposing.

    These different states of stabilities or blissful states are also temporary states which is function of time. This is because there are intermediary stages.

    Now the final permanent blissful state, which we believe will be out of the knowledge of Brahman, is mostly out of sight of the general folks as they are mired in the maya of materials.

    However the vulnerable points are the transient stages between the two stability layers. That is where he gets disenchanted with present layer and looksup for the higher layer. Till a person is in blissful state he will not want to jeopardise that state and thrive for some unknown blissful state. But once he is vulnerable then he will take that chance.

    So in this case as pointed out, the person is in question is in blissful and stable state, so he has no motivation of venturing for an unknown blissful state. If at all, he has to be influenced, we have to wait till this blissful state is over and he is looking for next level of blissful state.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

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    Re: On Liberation from Samsara

    @kallol, the transient blissful state you want to describe is actually called MOHA.

    Whenever we achieved a worldly/heavenly state as perceived perfect according to our knowledge (acquired by study/peers or whatever),we see everything pink and that tranquil,the blissfullness wants to remain static.this is called INERTIA WHICH IS THE RESULT OF MOHA. This inertia lasts as long as that dream/pink phase is over by one sudden hit causing sorrow/turbulence. Then again the search for next perceived ?eternal/more stable begins.

    This nature is called incompleteness/wants which is inherent in nature/prakriti.And this is the blessings from jagatguru.When he created nature out of nothing,then this incompleteness/wants was necessary to come back to its original states.

    This is the basis of eternal desire of nature.

    @WUNDERMONK, no amount of motivation regarding positively blissfullness of mokhsa is explained to a ignorant people who is in that state of INERTIA/MOHA,one can make him doing brahmasadhna.

    Yes desire of heaven as described by koran,Bible etc can motivate to do some amount of balanced spiritual discipline along with materialistic enjoyment as the promised land is extension of his current desire/inertia/moha.

    Real mumukhsu is guided by Yogamaya,whose inertia is constantly put to test and broken by mahashakti and guided to eternal state by Guru.
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

  9. #9

    Re: On Liberation from Samsara

    Quote Originally Posted by Sri Vaishnava View Post
    The person in the hypothetical question has not reached this stage, which disqualifies him as an aspirant of vedAntA. He will eventually realise that this happy life is temporary. Though it may take him several lifetimes, his punya will be exhausted sometime.
    My opinion.

    This logic fails once it spans multiple lifetimes. Your memory is reset each time and so long as you are happy with your present circumstances (family, friends, career, health and wealth) you will never find a need to turn towards thoughts of afterlife. When worldly life is going well, any quest for liberation from samsara will be superficial, for you are only doing it because you think you are supposed to - rather than you actually wanting it. This is regardless of any other kinds of inclinations you may have had in your past life.

    So for your idea to work, each life has to consistently (or increasingly) be miserable/boring for the person to stay on course of liberation across all of these lifetimes. Once he finds himself in a happy material life, the whole process will be reset, because the need for a better afterlife is absent.

    The other piece to this is the following paradox - in spite of all the grand descriptions of this eternal bliss, if this blissful state was offered to the people here today, practically everyone here will reject it in favor of continuing their worldly life (family, passions, etc) for some more time. They all want this super blissful/permanent/better than worldly life state, but not right now; it is something for the future. A similar analogy - many Indians in the US keep saying they intend to return to India. But there is no return date or else the date is a moving target, which they never hit. It is something for the future, which is unlikely to happen; but the thought gives them a sense of comfort.
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    Re: On Liberation from Samsara

    Quote Originally Posted by anirvan View Post
    @kallol, the transient blissful state you want to describe is actually called MOHA.

    Whenever we achieved a worldly/heavenly state as perceived perfect according to our knowledge (acquired by study/peers or whatever),we see everything pink and that tranquil,the blissfullness wants to remain static.this is called INERTIA WHICH IS THE RESULT OF MOHA. This inertia lasts as long as that dream/pink phase is over by one sudden hit causing sorrow/turbulence. Then again the search for next perceived ?eternal/more stable begins.

    This nature is called incompleteness/wants which is inherent in nature/prakriti.And this is the blessings from jagatguru.When he created nature out of nothing,then this incompleteness/wants was necessary to come back to its original states.

    This is the basis of eternal desire of nature.
    The person in question does not know at that point of time that it is Moha. For him that is the blissful permanent state.

    That is why it is always difficult to move or change people when they are stable in their state of mind. The chances get bright when they come out of that Moha state or transient state between two Moha or stable state.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

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