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Thread: Does science have all answers?

  1. #31

    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    The universe is a manifestation of God, an emanation from his infinite, eternal self. But unlike God, the universe is neither infinite nor eternal. However, it appears to be real and eternal because of mahamaya (maya on a cosmic scale). Now, maya is not unreal, but is a state of conditional reality.
    The universe has to be infinite. Where space ends, there should be matter. Where matter ends, there should be space. Both of them cant be finite. Atleast this would be if the universe were of some regular 3D construct. It is possible the universe is a complex n-dimensional structure which folds itself finite like the Mobius strip.

    However, the number of universe or Brahmanda( a cosmic egg) is countless, atleast as observed from the puranas, each of them presided by a Brahma, the Mahat tattva.

    The universe has to even otherwise be infinite as such powers of creating and maintaining this universe has been denied to the souls that stand apart from the Self. (BS 4.4.17). If seems very unlikely that the liberated soul (in Vishnu Loka) would be incapable of accomplishing a finite task.

  2. #32

    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu


    DID GOD CREATE THE UNIVERSE OUT OF NOTHING or OUT OF PRE-EXISTENT MATTER?
    If God created the universe out of pre existent matter, then why are you seeking to explain the cause for creation. The universe might as well be pre existent.


    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    The second view, for obvious reasons, I am comfortable with. Therefore, universe did not create itself out of nothing because it is the effect but God created universe out of nothing because He is the cause.

    Given these two views, what would you choose?
    Neither! If something can come out of nothing, then why posit a God in the first place. I might as well say that the universe is omnipotent and self evolving - can you prove otherwise? Infact that is the Hindu beleif, the universe is itself omnipotent because it only a manifestation of Brahman - there is no need to create something out of a void at all. If God wanted to create, he had everything within himself for the job.



    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Being a realist, I have trouble accepting this simply because of the real world I live in. I do feel my toothache! I wish I could brush that off as an illusion! If my senses (any one of five) can perceive then it is real to me. That which exists is real.


    Allright, I dont argue reality or unreality of the universe as it is not a useful question.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Why did God create the universe in the first place?

    What is the purpose of creating a man?
    Any sensible answer? Only two answers are feasible - 1) no creation ever happened 2) it is his sport.

    Hinduism does not say man(soul) was ever created, it always exists. Creating a man just means embodying the soul in a new body. So that part is not relevant to us.

  3. #33
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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    What a great link, thanks, saidevo

    I think it is interesting that quantum physics so closely parallels the mystical traditions of the Abrahamic traditions (YHVH)...and I am of the opinion that both science and religion (as well as art) are manners of describing or of asserting order upon the "outside" world.

    But, to me, it all breaks down to the notion that all attempts at explanation are just really mindplay ... what is, just is. Nothing more nor less.


    Love,
    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    I have never seen any of these ghosts hanging around cemeteries and I have been around a lot of cemeteries at night. And I have never heard of souls hanging around bodies after they left them. What would be the point?

    Dopplegangers are another story , they are people the look exactly like another person and they are both usually alive. There was a guy who used to live close to me and he had a doppleganger experience. During world war II he came across a dead german soldier, and when he turned him over it was like looking at himself. He took the Id off of the soldier and I looked at it. When I compared the german Photo with his military ID the looked exactly the same. Measurements of the eyes nose and mouth were the same.

    Genetic material is only chemicals and when the body dies it remains intact until decay . But if the material is in an airtight area it will last for years or centuries. The dna of a phonecian can was compared to people living in the area to day and about 40% were genetically related.

  5. #35
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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by willie
    ------

    Genetic material is only chemicals and when the body dies it remains intact until decay . But if the material is in an airtight area it will last for years or centuries. The dna of a phonecian can was compared to people living in the area to day and about 40% were genetically related.

    Yes Genetic matter is only matter. Genes contain something minuter which contain something more minuter and so on -----------.

    Finally there should be something very subtle -- not graspable by human senses and instruments since that so called vacuum is the source of the awareness of the investigator.

    How investigator investigates the Self?


    Om Namah Shivayya

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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    The lower mind of course, after consulting with Chitta the storebank of impressions .

    There is definitely somebody asking the question.

    Right Ho. Many call this impression laden lower mind as ego -- the bhandasura.


    So, the question to Shri Nirotu goes further: Is the questioner created or uncreated? And I repeat the post so that the question remains active:

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu
    Body-brain that you think is the knower is not the knower. Your body-brain is inert. When life goes away the body-brain does not say "Let me live". What in you is capable of proclaiming "I exist" or of knowing anything? If you answer "spirit", then what is that? Should one not know it first before knowing things made known by it?

    And if the spirit in you is uncreated, is it different from the creator? IF THE CREATOR AND THE SPIRIT ARE DIFFERENT, then creator definitely did not create the eternal spirit!!!!!!!!!!!!! Eternal thing is ever present and uncreated. On the other hand, if you agree that the uncreated spirit in you and the creator are non-different then all is well. We then must both strive to know the Self only.
    Om Namah Shivayya

  7. #37

    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee
    Right Ho. Many call this impression laden lower mind as ego -- the bhandasura.


    So, the question to Shri Nirotu goes further: Is the questioner created or uncreated? And I repeat the post so that the question remains active:



    Om Namah Shivayya
    Allright ji! But aren't you expecting him to accept your view? Your question presupposes that the person you are talking to is also an Advaitin isn't it?

    Nirotu will say that he was created by his God(not yours!) and certainly rejects the idea that he was uncreate. Do you have any logical arguments to show that you were never created? Scripture is not going to be of use, and he will bid your sources good bye, just like we handle his scriptures.

    I think you should get down to the basics, and not raise questions which you cannot answer yourself. "Do I exist?" for example, is an inappropriate question except when dealing with other Advaitins, as no further argument is possible.

    Sense perception tells me that I exist, no further proof is required and asking that question itself is incorrect. If you have doubts to your existance, then how could you be convinced that a discussion is going on here or that you are even reading and posting the answers. The entire exercise becomes futile.

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    Re: Does science have all answers?


    To investigate the self you have to go into clinical psychology and it will not be nice.

    Sure the elemental structure of dna can be broken down to smaller and smaller particles and get into the subatomic element of strong and weak attractors and strange attractors but there is no need for all that. Genetic material is trying to be altered now, so people can see what parts control what part of cell development. And genes of different plants and animals are interchangable. Some hybird tomatoes have firefly genes in them and the gene in insects the cause body segmentation is the same one that caused the fingers and toes of humans to be seperate and distinct.

    Positron emission tomography can look at the active parts of the brain. So while a person is thinking about a math problem you can see what parts of the brain are active. Now think of taking a yoga training course where they scan the instructors brain , under meditation and then scan yours while you try to meditate. Then you could see the difference between the instructors scan and yours and learn what to do to get your active brain area to match the instructors. Better than present , where you stumble around trying to get it right But is would be expensive and you have to inject a slightly radioactive tracer so the machine can detect it.

  9. #39
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    Post The Body of Vedanta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharabhanga

    3. annamaya kosha ~ the sheath of nourishment or food, forming the sthUla-sharIra (gross frame).

    2. vijñAnamaya (or buddhimaya) kosha ~ the sheath of knowledge or wisdom, forming the sUkshma-sharIra (subtile frame).

    1. Anandamaya kosha ~ the sheath of pleasure or bliss, forming the kAraNa-sharIra (causal frame).
    The scheme is intended to explain the subtle composition of the discreet self-contained entity that appears as an individual living body.

    That apparently one body is understood as actually consisting of three superimposed bodily conditions (bodies or sharIrANi).

    sharIra refers both to “support” and to “dissolution”, and particularly “a body or its constituent parts (or bones)” or “the abode of the soul”, and thus “one’s own person or self”.

    The one boney body that is commonly known as one’s self becomes subtly distinguished as this investigation into “the self” (i.e. Atman) proceeds.

    The first stage of discrimination (or enlightenment) comes when the mortal frame is distinguished from the immortal frame: the inert corpse (sthUla-sharIra) and its quickening spirit (kAraNa-sharIra). And this realization alone reveals the presence of a third subtle element ~ i.e. the sUkshma-sharIra or “subtle frame” that is the very embodiment of discrimination (or wisdom) itself, and which results from the vijñAna-maya (consisting of true discernment or intelligence) or buddhi-maya (consisting of intellect or wisdom) or mano-maya (consisting of mind or spirit) kosha.

    The subtle frame arises directly from the causal frame, and the life-breath or quickening spirit that enlivens the corpse is known simply as Atman or prANa.

    And so ,we have the gross frame resulting from that which is nourishment or food ~ the anna-maya kosha; and the causal frame resulting from that which is pleasure or bliss ~ the Ananda-maya kosha; separated by the fine discrimination of the subtle frame resulting from that which is intellect or wisdom ~ the vijñAna-maya (etc.) kosha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharabhanga

    It is additionally supposed (from knowledge of the pañcabhUta, the five-fold essence of life or pañcAmRta) that there are five distinct sheaths investing the soul, with the successive causation of the subtle frame even more subtly qualified:

    5. (or 3.) ~ anna-maya kosha.
    4. (or 2.3) ~ prANa-maya kosha.
    3. (or 2.2) ~ vijñAna-maya kosha.
    2. (or 2.1) ~ mano-maya kosha.
    1. (always 1) ~ Ananda-maya kosha.

    Your “higher” triad of Atma-buddhi-manas represents the same inner composition of the subtle frame given above (i.e. prANa-buddhi-manas).
    Quote Originally Posted by Saidevo

    Let’s first get the koshas and sariras of Vedanta in order, from the book Vedanta for Beginners by Swami Sivananda:

    There are three bodies in every jiva. They are:

    1. The physical or gross body (Sthula Sarira)
    2. The astral or subtle body (Sukshma Sarira or Linga-sarira)
    3. The casual or seed body (Karana sarira)

    There are five sheaths or koshas. They are:

    1. Annamaya Kosha
    2. Pranamaya Kosha
    3. Manomaya Kosha
    4. Vijnanamaya Kosha
    5. Anandamaya Kosha

    The panchakoshas are accommodated in the three bodies as under:

    1. Physical body: Annamaya Kosha
    2. Astral body: Pranamaya, Manomaya, Vijnanamaya Kosha
    3. Casual body: Anandamaya Kosha
    None of this differs at all from what I have already stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saidevo

    All the five sheaths function in the waking state.
    In the dream state, Vijnanamaya and Anandamaya Kosha function partially.
    In the deep sleep state, only Anandamaya Kosha functions.
    And here I am also in agreement ~ although, more fully explained:

    1. All five sheaths function in the “waking” state of vaishvAnara.

    2. Only four sheaths function in the “dream” state of taijasa ~ excluding the gross body and its annamaya kosha.

    3. Only three sheaths function in the “deep-sleep” state of prAjña ~ excluding the annamaya and manomaya koshA.

    4. And two sheaths function as one in the transcendent “fourth” state of turIya ~ finally excluding the prANamaya kosha and leaving only the vijñAnamaya and Ananadamaya koshA, which are automatically resolved as one glorious unified frame when the mortal body is completely discarded and the limitations previously imposed by vijñAna (as an aid to this ultimate realization) are no longer relevant.


  10. #40
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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    Your “higher” triad of Atma-buddhi-manas represents the same inner composition of the subtle frame given above (i.e. prANa-buddhi-manas).
    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    Let’s first get the koshas and sariras of Vedanta in order...
    Namaste sarabhanga-ji,

    I am sorry to have given the impression that the order of the sharira and kosha you have presented required a change and hence I quoted it from the book of Swami Sivananda.

    I was actually confused by the terms atma and prAna. I thought atma is over and above all sharira and kosha whereas prAna is associated with the prAnamayakosha, and therefore, your classifying prAna-buddhi-manas as the higher triad (instead of atma-buddhi-manas) gave me the confusion.

    It was enlightening to read your elaboration of the functions of kosha in the four states from vaishvAnara to turiya.

    Kindly answer my following queries:
    1. atma and prAna - I have the impression that atma is what remains beyong the sharira and kosha and that prAna is the vital energy using which atma animates the physical body. What exactly are these two entities and how do they differ from each other?

    2. Theosophy speaks of three cosmic, creative forces: fohat, prAna and kundalini.
    To quote from the book The Etheric Double by Arthur E. Powell:

    Fohat or Electricity, comprises practically all the physical forces of which we know, all of which are convertible into one another, such as electricity, magnetism, light, heat, sound, chemical affinity, motion, and so forth.

    Prâna, or Vitality, is a vital force, the existence of which is not yet formally recognised by orthodox Western scientists, though probably a few of them suspect it.

    Kundalini, or Serpent-Fire, is a force known as yet only to very few. It is entirely unknown and unsuspected by orthodox Western science.

    These three forces remain distinct, and none of them can at this level be converted into either of the others. This is a point of great importance, which the student should clearly grasp.
    I think Fohat is a term used in Buddhism. The Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary gives the equivalent Sanskrit term as daiviprakriti. What exactly is this force or energy?

    Do the descriptions of other two forces prAna and kundalini as given above agree with the teachings of Hinduism?

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