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Thread: Does science have all answers?

  1. #21

    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    The human soul is said to be a triad of atma-buddhi-manas or will-wisdom-activity. The human soul is clothed in seven koshas/sheaths/bodies/principles that fall into a higher triad (atma-buddhi-manas) and a lower quartet (lower manas or kama rupa-astral body-etheric double-physical body). The higher triad atma-buddhi-manas represent the Trinity Shiva-Vishnu-Brahma (in that order) in us. Brahma creates, Vishu pervades and Shiva ensouls. In other words, Shiva is the will, Vishnu the wisdom and Brahma the activity of our souls.

    Using the pot-potter analogy in a lighter vein, Shiva is the space that remains as the ultimate after the pots are broken, Vishnu is the clay and Brahma, the hoary potter!

    What exactly is free-will (or volition) then? How is it related to fate? These questions are beautifully answered in the dialogue between His Holiness Shri Chandrashekhara Bharati Mahaswami and a Disciple), which is found in this link: http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/artic...e_and_Free.htm

    The analogy of an author comes to mind again. Many authors have reported that they start their work of fiction with a basic idea of the landscape and the cast, but once it gets going, the characters play their roles out themselves! A case of fictional characters using their free-will to deside their destinies!

    It is also interesting to note that an author/painter/poet gets his/her inspiration and ideas supplemetned by the thoughts of other entities in the lower (rupa) mental world, and the archetypes of human thoughts in the higher (arupa) mental world according to Theosophical research.

    God is love. Bhagvan Sri Sathya Sai Baba teaches us that Sathya, Dharma, Shanti, Prema and Ahimsa are the attributes of God, who is by Himself Sat-Chit-Ananda. God is full of love, and love is the only emotion that has the highest frequency that can tune in to God.

    At the same time, God is just, like a father to his child (a fond father is a fond father, my English professor used to say). This is why He does not interfere with our karma and free-will, except in cases where the human soul cries out to Him for redemption. Even in such cases, where he reduces the burden of karma of a soul, he usually transfers it to a self-realized soul in human form (may be the guru) who willingly takes it, because the karmic forces need to be played out in full. We read stories of God Himself being under the influence of karmic forces. Thus, it is a loving God as well as a just God, who would not interfere with His creation, except in deserving cases.



    Good and evil, like the two sides of a coin, form the duality necessary for manifestation. Understanding this concept would remove questions such as why God created evil or why He sliently lets his children go evil ways and suffer. A funny but deeply philosophical urban legend of a down-to-science professor and a faithful student who explains how evil is merely the absence of good and not a form in itself can be read, among other links, at https://lists.cs.columbia.edu/piperm...ne/009093.html

    All said and done, no one can fathom the intentions of God or the reasons for His manifesting the universe and its beings, and letting them interact and play out their karma, life after life, and silently, patiently and lovingly watch over his creations, not from the yonder skies but from within the beings themselves, like the two birds of the Svetasvatara Upanishad (4:6): Two birds of beautiful plumage — inseparable friends — live on the same tree. Of these two one eats the sweet fruit while the other looks on without eating. (translation by Swami Sivananda).

    Most appropriately, the Hindu scriptures say that it is all God's lila.
    Dear Saidevo:

    A resounding "Amen" to what you have said! However, I do beg to differ in some areas. I will pose this soon.

    Blessings,
    nirotu

  2. #22
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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Dear Satay, Atanu:

    ---- perhaps it would be helpful if you can clarify the difference between “self” and “non-self”. ------

    nirotu
    Namaskar,

    Well. Isn't it putting the cart before the horse? Who will know the difference? What in you is capable of discerning the difference?


    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    On the other hand, western religion rests on knowing the creator -------
    Blessings,
    nirotu
    Who will know the creator? What in you is capable of knowing anything?



    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Who is asking this question? Me, nirotu...

    Is he created or uncreated?
    Am I created ? Yes, I am purely an object of His creation!! However, the spirit in me is uncreated, eternally existent. Its a pure energy transformed into material body-me.
    Since, you have not contemplated I repeat the question.

    Body-brain that you think is the knower is not the knower. Your body-brain is inert. When life goes away the body-brain does not say "Let me live". What in you is capable of proclaiming "I exist" or of knowing anything? If you answer "spirit", then what is that? Should one not know it first before knowing things made known by it?

    And if the spirit in you is uncreated, is it different from the creator? IF THE CREATOR AND THE SPIRIT ARE DIFFERENT, then creator definitely did not create the eternal spirit!!!!!!!!!!!!! Eternal thing is ever present and uncreated. On the other hand, if you agree that the uncreated spirit in you and the creator are non-different then all is well. We then must both strive to know the Self only.


    From Gita

    13.12 Adhyaatma jnaana nityatwam tattwa jnaanaartha darshanam;
    Etajjnaanamiti proktam ajnaanam yadato’nyathaa.

    13.12. Constancy in Self-knowledge, perception of the end of true knowledge—this is declared to be knowledge, and what is opposed to it is ignorance.



    Note: Rig Veda does not say for nothing that sages created creator Brahma and Brahmanaspati. There is no creator apart from you (the eternal spirit) dear Nirotu.


    Om Namah Shivayya
    Last edited by atanu; 14 August 2006 at 02:04 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Dear Atanu:

    Who is asking this question? Me, nirotu...

    Is he created or uncreated?
    Am I created ? Yes, I am purely an object of His creation!! However, the spirit in me is uncreated, eternally existent. Its a pure energy transformed into material body-me.

    Blessings,
    nirotu
    You say: I am purely an object of His creation.

    What is this I? Is the fleshy object called body aware of I? Does it say I when life leaves it? No. The pure object that you think is you is not you.

    Logically how far can you go? You can at best undertand that you used to be essence of a sperm, which obtained a body inside your fathers body and then drew food from your mother to grow and then be known as Nirotu.

    Vedas take you beyond.

    Best Wishes.

  4. #24
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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Better take genetics over, humans are made up of genetic material from both parents. Not the male alone.

    Some where is the vedas the talks about brahman destroying its physical body to perhaps it could move to another dimension. So if that body material was left behind in this universe , I don't see why some of it , under the right conditions , could not have combined to form other living bodies. And those bodies would not be like the original one because of lack of mass, different condition so some missing ingredient. So being limited these new entities would not have the capabilities of the original but that would not mean that the original entity counld not detect and perhaps influence these other bodies.

  5. #25
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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by willie
    Some where is the vedas the talks about brahman destroying its physical body to perhaps it could move to another dimension. So if that body material was left behind in this universe , I don't see why some of it , under the right conditions , could not have combined to form other living bodies. And those bodies would not be like the original one because of lack of mass, different condition so some missing ingredient. So being limited these new entities would not have the capabilities of the original but that would not mean that the original entity counld not detect and perhaps influence these other bodies.
    The affinity between the human soul and its physical body is great. When the soul leaves the physical body on death, it hovers over the corpse or physical shell for some days, grieving its separation from the physical body. This is the reason the last rites are performed to appease the soul and release it on its further course.

    Unlike the western religions, Hinduism requires the physical body to be cremated on death. This will ensure that the decaying body elements return to their source quickly. In the case of burial of a corpse, the discarded shell of etheric double ( praanamayakosha in Hiduism, Doppelgänger in German) of the departed soul hangs over its slowly-decaying physical counterpart for quite sometime, and is seen by sensitive people as the churchyard ghost -- a bluish-white, misty form hovering over a grave.

    Hindu puranas speak of yogis temporarily casting their physical shells and entering the dead frames of humans and animals. Adi Shankaracharya did such a thing, and entered the body of a dead king for some time, to learn the values of wordly life, and answer the question of Sarasa Vani, wife of Mandana Misra.

    There are also cases of living human beings possessed by ghosts, resulting in a dual personality. Despite all these varied cases, I don't think that physical bodies left behind and buried can combine under right conditions form other bodies.

  6. #26
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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by willie
    Better take genetics over, humans are made up of genetic material from both parents. Not the male alone.

    Some where is the vedas the talks about brahman destroying its physical body to perhaps it could move to another dimension. So if that body material was left behind in this universe , I don't see why some of it , under the right conditions , could not have combined to form other living bodies. And those bodies would not be like the original one because of lack of mass, different condition so some missing ingredient. So being limited these new entities would not have the capabilities of the original but that would not mean that the original entity counld not detect and perhaps influence these other bodies.

    Dear Willie,

    What is genetic material without the code that gives it value? In a dead body the genes are there but they are also dead.

    Spiritualists do not believe that matter can ever become spirit. And Advaita believes that only the spirit is. The spirit itself appears as multiform matter. Science may keep trying to inject life into matter. But the point is that the scientist who tries so does not know his own self.

    Questions posed to Shri Nirotu are important. Our scriptures say that ignorance is due to non-enquiry of self and once the enquiry is begun in right earnest the auspicious one reveals himself.

    Best Wishes.

  7. #27
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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    Your "higher" triad of Atma-buddhi-manas represents the same composition of the subtle frame as given above (i.e. prANa-buddhi-manas).

    The lower quartet of "lower manas-astral body-etheric double-physical body", however, and also the sum total of seven koshas, is perhaps the view of Theosophy, but it is certainly not a normal understanding of Hinduism.
    The Three Sariras and Panchakoshas

    Let's first get the koshas and sariras of Vedanta in order, from the book Vedanta for Beginners by Swami Sivananda (available for download at http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/):

    There are three bodies in every jiva. They are:
    1. The physical or gross body (Sthula Sarira)
    2. The astral or subtle body (Sukshma Sarira or Linga-sarira)
    3. The casual or seed body (Karana sarira)

    There are five sheaths or koshas. They are:
    1. Annamaya Kosha - made of five gross elements: earth, water, fire, air, and aakasa.

    2. Pranamaya Kosha - made of ten pranas: the five chief pranas Prana, Apana, Vyana, Udana and Samana and the five sub-pranas Naga, Kurma, Krikara, Devadatta and Dhananjaya.

    3. Manomaya Kosha - made of Manas (mind), Chitta (subconscious) and the five Jnanendriyas (sense organs of knowledge).

    4. Vijnanamaya Kosha - made of the intellectual and the ego working with the help of the five Jnanendriyas.

    5. Anandamaya Kosha - a modification of Prakriti and consists of the Vrittis called Priya, Moda and Pramoda.

    The panchakoshas are accommodated in the three bodies as under:
    1. Physical body: Annamaya Kosha
    2. Astral body: Pranamaya, Manomaya, Vijnanamaya Kosha
    3. Casual body: Anandamaya Kosha

    All the five sheaths function in the waking state. In the dream state, Vijnanamaya and Anandamaya Kosha function partially. In the deep sleep state, only Anandamaya Kosha functions.

    The Seven Principles in Theosophy

    Theosophy divides the sheaths into seven principles. Their relation with the classifications of Hinduism, and the planes or worlds of their habitat are as follows:

    No. Theosophy - Hindu sarira - Hindu kosha - Loka/world/plane

    1. Physical body - Sthula-sarira - Annamaya kosha - Physical world

    2. Etheric double - Sthula-sarira - Pranamaya kosha - Physical world

    3. Astral body - Sukshma or Linga-sarira - kama or desire part of Manomaya kosha - Astral world

    4. Mental body - Sukshma or Linga-sarira - manas part of Manomaya kosha - Lower Mental world

    5. Casual body - Sukshma or Linga-sarira - Vijnanamaya kosha - Higher Mental world

    6. Buddhi - Karana sarira - Anandamaya Kosha - Intutional world or Buddhic plane

    7. Atma - beyond bodies and sheaths - Spiritual or Atmic world

    In this classification, the first four principles form the lower quartet and the three higher principles form the higher triad, which is the Divine Ego that reincarnates.

    Vedanta names these three principles as sutratman. The koshas and sariras are strung to this atmic thread as beads. The lower quartet has the name kama rupa.

    I should like to make it clear here that my knowledge of Hinduism and Theosophy is just that of a seeker in the beginning stages. I am not Sanskrit-literate either, so haven't read the scriptures of our religion in their original or in the translations to any extent. I request the readers to examine the comparative truths I have tried to present above and enlighten me on any fallacies or errors they might contain.

    We are confident that Sanatana Dharma and Vedanta has all the answers and present a holistic view of the material and spiritual facets of the universe and Brahman. Such depth and thoroughness of approach to the questions of human life are scarcely, if at all, found in other Indian or Abrahamic religions (with the possible exception of Buddhism).

    In my opinion, only Theosophy seems to have a thorough understanding of some the truths, which it presents in a logical and scientific manner. This is because Theosophy essentially is based on Hinduism, though it has a soft corner for Buddhism. Gandhiji said that Theosophy is Hinduism in theory while Hinduism is Theosophy in practice.

    Theosophy has a large following in the West. Some of our great thinkers like Jiddu Krishnamurthi were Theosophists. The Theosophical Society at Adyar plays a vital role in researching comparative religion and documenting the ancient truths that are common to all religions. Some people project Theosophy as the religion of the future.

    In this perspective, it is my humble opinion, that the followers of Hinduism should research Theosophy, verify its claims using yoga and clairvoyance, dig out and showcase the Vedantic truths that form the bedrock of Theosophical worldview, extend the scope of Theosophy to include the Bhakti Yoga and make Theosophy a darsana in Hinduism (which it essentially is). When this is done by Hinduism experts in a scientific way, and presented to the discerning youth of today, they can understand the timeless truths with ease and be motivated to undertake their own spiritual inquiries.

    After all, this world and the next belongs not just to Hindus but the followers of every faith as well as the followers of no faiths, and every human is going to coexist in the same heaven and hell, to be liberated ultimately. The ancient world all over was a golden era of Vedic dharma and civilization. Therefore Hinduism has the responsibility to take the lead once again in today's stife-ridden world and provide answers to every true seeker, irrespective of caste, creed or religion.

  8. #28

    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu

    While many branches of Hinduism rests on the precept: “know-thyself”, it is not quite clear what they refer to.
    All branches of Hinduism rest on "know-thyself" including the purely dualistic school. The semantics for "thyself" isn't quite the same for everyone.

    For advaitins, knowing the Self is not exactly knowing, but something more than that. Brahmavit brahmaiva bhavati - One who knows the Brahman, verily becomes the Brahman, where the distinction of knowledge and the knower creases. That does not mean that nothing is known, but rather that everything is known.

    For others, "thyself" is an inferior realization, and I presume they refer to the higher mind(intellect) in the causal body which they call as the "individual self" as different from the "universal self". This is almost close to the advaitic realization but in advaita even this intellect merges into the Universal Self and hence no identity apart from the Self remains.

  9. #29

    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu

    While many branches of Hinduism rests on the precept: “know-thyself”, it is not quite clear what they refer to.
    All branches of Hinduism rest on "know-thyself" including the purely dualistic school. The semantics for "thyself" isn't quite the same for everyone.

    For advaitins, knowing the Self is not exactly knowing, but something more than that. Brahmavit brahmaiva bhavati - One who knows the Brahman, verily becomes the Brahman, where the distinction of knowledge and the knower creases. That does not mean that nothing is known, but rather that everything is known.

    For others, "thyself" is an inferior realization, and I presume they refer to the higher mind(intellect) in the causal body which they call as the "individual self" as different from the "universal self". This is almost close to the advaitic realization but in advaita even this intellect merges into the Universal Self and hence no identity apart from the Self remains.

    There are three "I"s as defined by vedanta: the lower mind which drives the senses, the higher mind(intellect) that drives the lower mind, and the cosmic mind that drives the intellect. The goal of life is to

    1. seek the higher mind through the lower mind - realization of individual self
    2. Use the higher mind to seek the cosmic mind - realization of Universal Self
    3. Use the grace of the Universal Self to merge the intellect into it. This part of the process is not driven by effort and is beyond human effort, and solely happens by the will of the Universal Spirit.

  10. #30

    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee
    Who is asking this question? Is he created or uncreated? Please answer after deliberating, if you wish to answer at all.


    Om Namah Shivayya
    The lower mind of course, after consulting with Chitta the storebank of impressions .

    There is definitely somebody asking the question.

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