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Thread: Symbols and their importance

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    Re: Symbols and their importance

    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    Dear Amrut ji,

    namaste

    Sorry that I did not cite where I took it from..its indeed from the Geeta.Thanks.

    I would not say that Advaita is not for everyone because as a mere human being I would not be able to judge who is ready for Advaita and who is not.

    Only God would be able to know who is ready for what.

    So at a human level we can only try to understand various options and choose what we feel is conducive for us.

    So for me I feel its very hard to streamline a person right away as ready or not ready for a school of thought and that can not be done over night in one sitting.

    Only God can give that answer or a human Guru who is totally not biased nor having any pre conceived notions.

    Do you realize that we Hindus keep pushing away people by such thinking that no one is ready etc?

    Other religions are ever ready to guide but we Hindus keep saying "Not everyone is ready" even without letting anyone try.

    We need to adopt a user friendly approach to the masses just like what Lord Buddha did..user friendly for the common man and giving him a chance to uplift himself instead of saying "not everyone is ready for this or for that"
    Namaste Renuka ji,

    If one is not ready, that we think as 'helpful' might be a disastrous. We are not able to judge and hence there is a culture of respecting saints. Even names of babies were given by rishis. Our culture and knowledge was not given to everybody. That is why in all prakarana granthas and in gita and in upanishads, 'per-requisites' are given. else such statements would not have been there. We cant judge people, but saints were considered to be highly evolved and possessing 'divya-drishti'. Hence this task was left to saints.

    We do give chance and user-friendly approach. We have ramayana, mahabharata, puranas and dharma smritis. For kali yuga it is said that parashara smriti is considered appropriate. Kanchi Paramacharya says that puranas talk like a friend. Rules, regulations, restrictions, etc are all there for the good of all. For global harmony. Distribution of work to certain class of people by judging their qualities is also there for a reason. 'Free culture' is not good. Mind should be kept under control. It should be turned towards God. Faith should be our armour.

    All we have to do is understand things in right context. Masses look for leaders. They emolate great ones. Buddha, Adi Sankara, Ramanuja, Madhva, GYAndeva, all were men of lofty character. People do not follow grammar and polemic debates. they look for inspiration which they get from men of noble, lofty character. They are just pulled towards a great personality, just like small magnet is naturally pulled towards bigger stronger magnet.

    OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

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    Re: Symbols and their importance

    Namaste Renuka ji,

    You have said that you have read almost all Vedanta literature. Upanishads don't advise imparting this knowledge to each and sundry. One of the Upanishads goes on to say that imparting VednAntic Knowledge (like Aham BrahmAsmi) to an unprepared soul is akin to pushing him/her to hell. Have you read this ? If you want I can give you proper references.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Symbols and their importance

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Devotee ji's OP has many good points. If I may add, we Hindus celebrate the goddess of the rivers - Ganga, Kauveri, and many others. It is done to honour our rivers who are truly believed to be dieties because our society has been agricultural in olden days and rivers were thus our life-giving sources. There are even stories such as 'Pundarika' who was a sinner once sighted 7 holy rivers in their god forms and thus was blessed and became a good soul. Similarly we worship books - children in our households are told that books and paper are Ma Saraswathi and thus one should not step on them. To Westerners, this might seem silly but such values add meaning to our everyday life. And we also worship plants and trees - Tulsi, Neem trees, etc. To an advaitin of advanced caliber as Sri Ramana Maharishi alone everything become equal. But to ordinary folks holding on to such sentimental and spiritual values gives us a sense of respect to everything god has given us - big and small. A sense of purpose comes into every single thing that comes in contact with us.

    It is said that once Guru Nanak ji went on a pilgrimage to 'Kaaba' and there he sat with his legs stretched in front of the prime worship structure. A monk noted that he should give respect to god by not stretching his legs in that direction. To this Guru Nanak ji is said to have exclaimed, "In which direction does he not exist then?". This shows advanced introspection and equation of things with 'aham' or similar vedantic explorations and explanations suits only the realized and not for us ordinary souls who have to first learn to respect every opportunity and every little thing that god has given us.

    Great message, devotee ji!
    I completely agree with Viraja di

    Jai Bajarangbali
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Symbols and their importance

    Thank you, Amrut bhai. So kind of you.

    Jai bhajrangbali!
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Symbols and their importance

    Hi.,

    Interesting thread and just wanted to add few cents...

    Vedantic idea of Symbols are not objective rather subjective...Rivers are named after Goddesses is right but we are not worshiping the river itself and if it is done that way, its totally wrong. If we look back the culture of Hindus, especially since you talked about farmers, they do worship every aspect of nature and the deity behind that aspect of nature on auspicious days like Sankaranti ( Thai or Pongal in tamil). Vedantic life teaches two concepts here... first and foremost one is Jada cannot act on its own and it requires a Jiva to make it act ( so everything we know, sense are controlled by a Jiva in exalted state and we call them Devas or Devatas) and the honor goes to the deva/devatha and ultimately to the Bagavan (Krshna as per BG). The respect and honor is not to the object but to the subject and same when you say we wroship special tree like Tulsi tree etc. ( we do not worship every tree but only special tree which got sanctified or have the divine devatha association behind it). You put it right when you said we worship Books considering it as Ma Saraswathi - in fact, Saraswathi is the devetha for education and thus we are actually paying respect to her and not to the object book/paper etc.

    Anything that has no vedic connection or agama is mere sentiment/blind faith and unfortunately we also do have tons of them imbibed in to our culture. Separating the practice from blind faith will reveal the greatness of symbols and the honoring methods to the symbols!

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    Re: Symbols and their importance

    Dear Amrut.,

    Picking just one statement...."Advaita is not everyone" and wondering...you are also trying to justify that as there are pramana for such statements. Whats this??

    Are you saying, Advaita is for someone who is very well advanced in Duality or saguna worship! If that is the case, all the Advaitic stalwarts will stand against such proposition and "knowing" the MahaVakya itself is suppose to give the Brahman realization for the practitioners ( Jivan Mukthi)! Advaita is not for 'anyone' as long as they live will be more fitting statement but unfortunately you cannot admit that or even recognize that ( though the fundamental tenets of advaita is just that)

    Anyways, this is nice thread and dont want to talk about Advaita alone! Its practical at least to understand that, we all are made different and also we are all at different level of understanding and accumulating the knowledge ( which results in the accounting system of Karma). So, accepting this difference and variety is good thing!

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    Re: Symbols and their importance

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear Amrut.,

    Picking just one statement...."Advaita is not everyone" and wondering...you are also trying to justify that as there are pramana for such statements. Whats this??

    Are you saying, Advaita is for someone who is very well advanced in Duality or saguna worship! If that is the case, all the Advaitic stalwarts will stand against such proposition and "knowing" the MahaVakya itself is suppose to give the Brahman realization for the practitioners ( Jivan Mukthi)! Advaita is not for 'anyone' as long as they live will be more fitting statement but unfortunately you cannot admit that or even recognize that ( though the fundamental tenets of advaita is just that)

    Anyways, this is nice thread and dont want to talk about Advaita alone! Its practical at least to understand that, we all are made different and also we are all at different level of understanding and accumulating the knowledge ( which results in the accounting system of Karma). So, accepting this difference and variety is good thing!
    Namaste Grames ji,

    Even while still living in duality, from vyavahArika satya, I have said this statement. In all the prakaraNa grantha-s there is a pre-requisite. Since you are well versed, I will save my time by not quoting all the grantha-s. gItA, upanishads, all say the same thing.

    One needs purity of mind. Clinging to worldly objects is not advised. That is why SaTsampatti is mentioned. Now no one has all 6 qualities and that too fully developed. Else one is a GYAnI. I have been practicing since many years. MY personal experience says the same.

    One has to practically apply the teachings and this requires purity of mind. In advaita there is no form to hold on to, you cant complain to any form or ask for something. It is vedAnta, the end of veda, in which mind has to be as that of sanyAsin. Else we will fail.

    What you are saying that just by realizing the mahAvAkya one enters into it is also possible, but it will be a rare phenomenon. The idea is to separate oneself form everything and for this a certain level of purity is required. I am not saying that one has to be advanced in idol worship or worshipping saguNa brahman. 'mental purity is must'. See in advaita approach the goal, renunciation is done from the first. The goal is very clear from first day, while in indirect way of an advaitin is to first attain mental purity via karma, yoga (pranayam, etc) or bhakti and then adopt advaita approach.

    The mind is so restless that it does not calm down even after years of meditation. When for the first time, OM continued by itself, I actually became a spectator and after that 'I' as an individual had no active role to play. I didnt need to make an effort the chant the mantra. Now the mind was naturally attracted towards the source of OM. Om automatically takes one to it's source. Like we can reach the sea-shore by hearing the waves mind will merge into brahman when one is able to merge in it.

    Even now when I am typing, my foot is feeling heaving and will go to sleep, but in meditation, even after 1:30 hours, my foot is normal. I have no consciousness of this body. Also time is concept of mind. I cant explain any further then here. What I am trying to say is that mind is too restless. Now if you have too many desires, then OM will renounce them and you will pull them back again. Life will become hell. One part says, 'I want this, I have spend so many years to achieve this', another part says, 'leave it'. If your mind does not obey you to, then it will not allow you to meditate. I mean, you sit, but thoughts continue. Actually these thoughts themselves are blockages, they produce strain as if they are trapping me in finiteness. No thoughts, no connection with body, then there is just ...

    A mind with too much tAmasika guNa or rAjasika guNa will not be able to live the life necessary for an advaitin. The mental renunciation is not possible for masses. Again, 'I' is so strongly attached to body that by mere utterance of 'I' consciousness is aware of physical body. In this case, when one is full of 'I and mine', and is biased towards loved ones, then one cannot meditate on OM, or practice neti-neti. Mind is very strong and when it shows it;s power, it will drag you to do things that you do not want to. Emotions run you, they make you do things that you know you should not. Only a calm mind can actually practice neti-neti or meditate on OM. Whe mind is free from worldly objects, it needs to hold on to something, so it will hold on to either a form of God or be at peace and be aware of unbroken observer. Mind actually surrenders and tries to seek it's source. When it's under sway of emotions and worldly objects, then God is almost forgotten. When there is no worldly thought one feels God is very near (ISvara hai), others feel God is too far. They find is difficult to tune into God. Not all cant chant any mantra for 2-3 hours. Japa is not for all. Quality, the depth in which you neter is more important that quantity. When both quality and quantity are there, it is best.

    Neti-neti is more difficult than OM. Most advaitins take help of OM, that is why OM is given much importance in many upanishads and Man. Up. is fully dedicated to OM.

    Lack of interest is must. Mind has to be strong. Even if you think, I will renounce say, watching TV, it should obey your command. Else you will keep repeating mistakes and watching TV will continue after 1-2 days. Weak mind keeps repeating mistake, while strong mind is neutral mind will be able to absorb praise, hatred, ego problems, and will be able to rise above them and not let these emotions take control. The mind is calm and unattached. This is purity. the one in which mind does not produce agitation is called as pure.

    Are you getting my point?

    I am not able to explain this in a proper way. I am poor at expressing myself.

    Advaita is not for everybody

    OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Symbols and their importance

    Dear Amrut.,

    Your description is very nice and appreciated for sharing. The curiosity or the question is, no where you said, there is special kind called "Advaitin" and it is only that, the progress or practice is possible as the detachment or willingness to experience "Advaita" is seriously taken up - meaning it is/can be for everyone? Or its not so? Mind is not the actual actor but a Jada - so the actual actor is still the "self" and the desiring self will have control of mind regardless!

    The purification and detachment is not advaitic practice alone btw - i would safely say every Indian spiritual practices and philosophies are built on these as nivrtti and vrtti!

    Your point is well understood - curious if you can understand the eligibility for Advaita regardless of the success rate or outcome by everyone!

    - If everyone is nothing but Brahman, how can The Brahman deny His own Eligibility to Realize His Self!

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    Re: Symbols and their importance

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Hi.,

    Interesting thread and just wanted to add few cents...

    Vedantic idea of Symbols are not objective rather subjective...Rivers are named after Goddesses is right but we are not worshiping the river itself and if it is done that way, its totally wrong. If we look back the culture of Hindus, especially since you talked about farmers, they do worship every aspect of nature and the deity behind that aspect of nature on auspicious days like Sankaranti ( Thai or Pongal in tamil). Vedantic life teaches two concepts here... first and foremost one is Jada cannot act on its own and it requires a Jiva to make it act ( so everything we know, sense are controlled by a Jiva in exalted state and we call them Devas or Devatas) and the honor goes to the deva/devatha and ultimately to the Bagavan (Krshna as per BG). The respect and honor is not to the object but to the subject and same when you say we wroship special tree like Tulsi tree etc. ( we do not worship every tree but only special tree which got sanctified or have the divine devatha association behind it). You put it right when you said we worship Books considering it as Ma Saraswathi - in fact, Saraswathi is the devetha for education and thus we are actually paying respect to her and not to the object book/paper etc.

    Anything that has no vedic connection or agama is mere sentiment/blind faith and unfortunately we also do have tons of them imbibed in to our culture. Separating the practice from blind faith will reveal the greatness of symbols and the honoring methods to the symbols!
    You certainly make very valid points here, Grames ji. If you notice, we also do worship Vahanas ('Ayudha puja' during Navaratri), even the entrance way to one's house is sort of worshiped when shastras say they have to be adorned with decorations made of rice-flour, etc. There is almost no object left that is not worshiped by us. This certainly provides scope for a new thread. When I think deeply, I cannot see any deity to be identified with someone's vehicles or the entrance-way to the house, but I'm sure they are granted by Shastras.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Symbols and their importance

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear Amrut.,

    Your description is very nice and appreciated for sharing. The curiosity or the question is, no where you said, there is special kind called "Advaitin" and it is only that, the progress or practice is possible as the detachment or willingness to experience "Advaita" is seriously taken up - meaning it is/can be for everyone? Or its not so? Mind is not the actual actor but a Jada - so the actual actor is still the "self" and the desiring self will have control of mind regardless!

    The purification and detachment is not advaitic practice alone btw - i would safely say every Indian spiritual practices and philosophies are built on these as nivrtti and vrtti!

    Your point is well understood - curious if you can understand the eligibility for Advaita regardless of the success rate or outcome by everyone!

    - If everyone is nothing but Brahman, how can The Brahman deny His own Eligibility to Realize His Self!
    Dear Grames ji,

    So you went through all that rambling Kudos to you

    The success depends upon maturity and purity of mind. See the goal has to be Advaita sthiti, moksha, whatever you call. Not all can actually command their mind.

    Mind is like a whirlwind, it is a garbage can with lots of ****. More the extrovert mind, more is expectation, less is chance of success.

    If there is constant internal fight between good part of mind and bad part (extrovert part) of mind, then a time will come when one will stop meditating and will altogether leave the spiritual practice.

    Yogis also need certain purity. Else they do not activate kundalini, as activating kundalini will magnify positive and negatiev qualites. IF not haldned with care, it is disaster waiting to happen.

    Advaita is topmost spiritual truth (dont mind . Human birth means you have right to attain moksha, but the way is not the same. You cant apply advaita directly. IF wrongly understood, then it is disaster waiting to happen, like many people will read ashtavakra gita and will stop doing all puja path and deity worship, there condition is worse. Their progress stops.

    You cant pick up 100 kg weight on day one. Start from 5 kg, then 10 kg, then 25 kg, move one, till you reach 100 kg, your final target.

    Advaita is like lifting 100 kg on day one. You simply cant apply it in practice and you simply cant meditate.

    See in advaita, there is no emotional outlet. It is basically an 'isolated life'. You are not even concenred with your body. If you are hurt you can rant it to God, curse him, vent out frustration, anger. You need to let emotions loose. Else you will go mad. In advaita, to whom you surrender, to whom you hold on to, there is no form to hold on to. Mind needs to hold on to something, it cannot stay without thoughts, else it is a question of death to mind. Mind is nothing but continuous flow of thoughts.

    An emotional person can easily get hurt. The one who has high ego can be hurt easily.

    My father is very strict and disciples. Now see the fun. He gets agitated if I do not keep things in a proper place. SO, if I want to upset him, snatch away his smile, then all I have to do is put a pencil on table and .... scolding starts , so his mood's remote control is in my hand. If you have a pet dog, I will give bad words to dog. That dog does not know anything but, you, the owner, will pounce on me, not dog

    Again, if ego is too high, is one is too sensitive, then one remains hurt for a long long time. So if I insult you in front of 10 people, you will not forget. This incidence keeps popping up in mind, when you meditate and then meditation is sidelined and you keep thinking of this incident and start doing planning for 'tit-for-tat'.

    Ego should be like writing on water. Before you complete writing 'A' on water with your finger or stick, it will wipe out, even writing on sea-shore on sand takes time to be wiped of, as it needs a high tide. Then what about those who have ego like 'a line carved on stone'? they simply cannot practice renunciation. Forgiveness is not in their nature. So first remove these culprits. Remove attachment, surrender to Rama, krishna, serve society, do not expect fruits. This is making a base. Without base, it is like building castle on air. Advaita is for those who can neutralize fast.

    For Emotional people bhakti suits. They naturally develop bhAva. Not that one is superior. It depends upon nature. If you are emotional, then too you will have lots of problems. But in bhakti you can move ahead with all those emotions, as there is a centre for emotional outlet. God is everything.

    That is why, increase sattviks guna. Only then practice advaita. So advaita is not for everything. This world is real, your wife is real, but she is dharma-patni, not kAma-patni So there is moderation is everything. This is called as balanced living for average person.

    vedAnta is 'path of renunciation' Only sattvika mind can renounce, not rAjasika, not tAmasika. So first increase sattva guNa, become nirmala, atleast to certain extend, as much as to apply advaita in part if not in full. Later on the success will come, that which was hard to obtain, that peaceful state will be achieved in more ease.

    I say all this from my personal experience.

    --

    More lecture

    See from top-down. This consciousness falls on mind, shines the mind and staying in mind, it shines. This shine is considered as 'my own sine' Here ego arises. Now, mind wants something to be fulfilled, it wants completeness, peace, ananda, immortality, but has some desires, and so it enters into body. Body is created exactly as per our mind, so that mind can fulfill it's desires, (prarabhdha). Mind cannot do anything by itself. So it takes help of body and through senses it tries to fulfill it's desire. In this process, it becomes more and more extrovert. There is nothing wrong to search for happiness. What is wrong is searching it outside, when it is inside. Our journey is to take 'U' turn and find the source, which sines the mind itself.

    Now, we get human body after many births. So this extrovert tendency is hard to turn into introvert. After repeated practice, may be after many lives one turns introvert. Only an introvert mind can practice advaita. Not all are introvert. Not all can renounce karma.

    People say, why you need ot drop karma, only drop action. I say, why think this way. Can you stay without doing any work for one day. People will shake their legs or play with pen or lift something that comes in had, they are so desperate to grap something, do something, can this restless mind practice advaita. His ego will give justification - brahma-satya jagat mithyA, all this is just play, so why worry ? but their deha tAdAmya wont go at any cost. It's all dry philosophy to pamper ego.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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