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Thread: Personal experiences in Yoga practise?

  1. #21
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    Re: Personal experiences in Yoga practise?

    Namaste Maha,

    As much as we would like to have a dialog with you, it is possible only through a two way street. We hear you, that it was inspired by some Indian Gurus. What Indra and I have told you is that essentially the yoga taught in the West is separated from the original gurus by at least 50 degrees and hence is completely devoid of any spirituality. When the names of the asanas are associated with positions of a dog 'doing his business', how could there be any spirituality involved in there. If the real Sanskrit names are used, and there is chanting of Sanskrit shalokas before and after the the Hath yoga class, then all the Xitians leave and don't show up for the following classes. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that? We are trying very hard to tell you where we are coming from. The yoga inspired by the gurus from India has been watered down by degrees of separation of the current yoga teachers in the yoga studios who look to a dog to give the names of poses of the asanas. What more could we say? If the intent is to totally ignore our side of the story and to ridicule us because you are holding God's hand, then there is no solution. You win.

    Pranam.
    Last edited by Believer; 01 August 2012 at 07:12 PM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Personal experiences in Yoga practise?

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    A world, a level of existence same linguistic root as in english location or latin "Locus"
    Vannakkam: Please accept my apologies. I have this darned habit of 'playing dumb' as humour, and sometimes it backfires. Sometimes when people start telling me everything there is to know about everything, I roll my eyes and play dumb. Its a nasty habit I'm working on, and I hope I don't do it again. Runs in my family, Dad had it, sons have it. Its only cute for awhile, and doesn't work on forums.

    Yes I know what lokas are. Sorry to have put you through the explanation.

    Aum Namasivaya

  3. #23
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    Re: Personal experiences in Yoga practise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste Maha,
    When the names of the asanas are associated with positions of a dog 'doing his business', how could there be any spirituality involved in there.
    Pranam.
    Downward facing dog comes from the Sanskrit name adho (downward) mukha (facing) shvAnAsana (dogpose).

  4. #24
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    Re: Personal experiences in Yoga practise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste Maha,
    We hear you, that it was inspired by some Indian Gurus. What Indra and I have told you is that essentially the yoga taught in the West is separated from the original gurus by at least 50 degrees
    Beliver!

    The teacher training and yoga classes are 100% identical in India and the West.

    Whether you are trainend to become a Yoga Teacher let´s say near Rishikesh (Rudraprayag) in the Shivananda Ashram or in his Ashram in Geneva, Switzerland, you will be going through the exact same motions: Wake up at 5:00 am in the morning, a few hours bhajans, Pranayama, Meditation, Asanas before lunch, vegeterian of course, you learn Vedanta, study Bhagavadgita, Vivekachudamani and Yoga theory, medical as well as metaphysical background. In the afternoon again Asana classes, in the evening, lectures bhajan and meditation , thats about it in a nutshell.

    The other modern Yoga schools don´t reallly differ too much from that schedule, there is a little more bhakti Yoga and Bhajan singing in Shivananda classes, you have to like that, if you don´t want to spent hours with Satsang, singing bhajans every day, Shivanandas or Vishnudevanandas teacher training is not for you. If you are inclined towards bhakti you will love it.

    The same goes for all the other teachers, these are global organisations, the curriculum is the same all over the world, the standard Yoga classes taught are also identical. If they offer living in an Ashram or retreats, life in the retreats and ashrams is also 100% identical in India and the West.

    The vast majority of Yoga Teachers in the West and in India are certified by one or the other Organisation that either goes back to these Gurus i mentioned, or their disciples.

    I don´t know where you got the idea that the Teacher Training or Yoga classes in the West are different from those in India. Who told you this? Or is this opinion just a "gut feeling" and due to your dislike for dogs?
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 02 August 2012 at 10:13 AM.

  5. #25
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    Re: Personal experiences in Yoga practise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam: Please accept my apologies. I have this darned habit of 'playing dumb' as humour, and sometimes it backfires. Sometimes when people start telling me everything there is to know about everything, I roll my eyes and play dumb. Its a nasty habit I'm working on, and I hope I don't do it again. Runs in my family, Dad had it, sons have it. Its only cute for awhile, and doesn't work on forums.

    Yes I know what lokas are. Sorry to have put you through the explanation.

    Aum Namasivaya
    No Problem, but i don´t really understand why this specific posting made you to show this allergic reaction. Too much non fictional stuff maybe? Next time i promise i add flying monkeys, all knowing Gurus, glowing chakras, lots of temples and 10 headed monsters abducting young woman

  6. #26
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    Re: Personal experiences in Yoga practise?

    Namaste Maha.

    As always, I learned something new from your insights and the subsequent discussion. Thank you.

    Pranam.
    Aum Namah Shivaya
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "Reality must always be real. It is not with forms and names. That which underlies these is the reality. It underlies limitations, being itself limitless. It is not bound. It underlies unrealities, itself being real. Reality is that which is. It is as it is. It transcends speech. It is beyond the expressions 'existence, non-existence', etc." ~Sri Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi~

  7. #27
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    Re: Personal experiences in Yoga practise?

    Namaste,
    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    I don´t know where you got the idea that the Teacher Training or Yoga classes in the West are different from those in India. Who told you this? Or is this opinion just a "gut feeling" and due to your dislike for dogs?
    I did not get the idea by talking to a whole bunch of people, my fiery friend. I found this out by attending yoga classes conducted by different American teachers. They dare not introduce even a whiff of Hinduism into the practice, whereas the ones I attended at my temple, made liberal use of reciting some prayers/verses where applicable. It was like entering the sterile environment of a hospital Vs. a pleasant, fragrant park. Actually taking yoga classes from different teachers in the West - native Hindus and yoga studio Westerners - might be educational for you.

    Pranam.

  8. #28
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    Re: Personal experiences in Yoga practise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,

    I did not get the idea by talking to a whole bunch of people, my fiery friend. I found this out by attending yoga classes conducted by different American teachers. They dare not introduce even a whiff of Hinduism into the practice, whereas the ones I attended at my temple, made liberal use of reciting some prayers/verses where applicable. It was like entering the sterile environment of a hospital Vs. a pleasant, fragrant park. Actually taking yoga classes from different teachers in the West - native Hindus and yoga studio Westerners - might be educational for you.

    Pranam.
    That your Experience was not as you wished for is indeed unfortunate for you, it is of course in India as well as in the West good to learn more about the education and attitude of the individual teachers, before you visit a class. But your own unfortunate personal experience is not characteristic of modern Yoga, whether western or eastern. If we want to compare individual experiences, i had good as well as bad experiences with both Indian and western Teachers.

    For my own preferences there is often too much indiscriminate communal reciting of Mantras and bhajan singing as a part of modern western Yoga classes and also in teacher training and i do not like it.For instance when Gayatri or Pranava is sung with a group of people that have received no mantra diksha, and are not involved in sadhana or upasana i do not like to attend such a meeting. It is just my personal preference but for me that would be a reason to not attend a class.

    Today it has almost become normal to use Mantras straight from the book and where i live-in the west- no one is afraid of, or is running away when Mantras and shlokas are recited, except me. I also would not say that in Indian classes you hear more shlokas and mantras, quite the contrary, i attended a yoga class with an excellent indian Yoga teacher who fortunately did not use any mantras or shlokas on me.

  9. #29
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    Re: Personal experiences in Yoga practise?

    Speaking from my own experience, Indian teachers of yoga have instructed me for free and told me how to practice at home every morning, while western instructors have always encouraged me to attend class every week. Their goal is to always keep you coming back for more, even though what they are teaching is fairly simplistic. I am not denying that there are also a lot of Indian instructors inspired by the western business model who teach yoga solely out of commercial interest. In contrast, the revival of hatha yoga by people like Kuvalayananda, Shivananda and Krishnamacharya was not centered around creating business opportunities for certified instructors. They were trying to revive Hinduism and the national spirit in a time when colonialism had done much damage to the self image of Hindus.

    The practices of hatha yoga, like asana and pranayama that are now so popular in modern postural yoga did not originate in a vacuum in the natha sampradaya, but were practised in some form or another in the dharmic traditions of India and have even reached China through the medium of Buddhism. The foundational philosophy of yoga comes from the larger context of Hinduism. The modern slogan of all practice and no theory serves only to accommodate more costumers. Personally, I would rather practice yoga at home than to pay a small fortune for weekly yoga classes, $600 workshops and $2000 yoga retreats in India or somewhere else. Yes, knowledge of anatomy is important, but this isn't rocket science. It can be learned easily and doesn't justify financing the pension of some certified instructor.

    Regarding mantra chanting in yoga classes. I have had to correct a few yoga instructors who were giving imaginary new age meanings of fairly simple Sanskrit mantras.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 03 August 2012 at 05:14 AM.

  10. #30
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    Re: Personal experiences in Yoga practise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    Speaking from my own experience, Indian teachers of hatha yoga have instructed me for free and told me how to practice at home every morning, while western instructors have always encouraged me to attend class every week. Their goal is to always keep you coming back for more, even though what they are teaching is fairly simplistic. I am not denying that there are also a lot of Indian instructors inspired by the western business model who teach yoga solely out of commercial interest. In contrast, the revival of hatha yoga by people like Kuvalayananda, Shivananda and Krishnamacharya was not centered around creating business opportunities for certified instructors. They were trying to revive Hinduism and the national spirit in a time when colonialism had done much damage to the self image of Hindus.

    The practices of hatha yoga, like asana and pranayama that are now so popular in modern postural yoga did not originate in a vacuum in the natha sampradaya, but were practised in some form or another in the dharmic traditions of India and have even reached China through the medium of Buddhism. The foundational philosophy of yoga comes from the larger context of Hinduism. The modern slogan of all practice and no theory serves only to accommodate more costumers. Personally, I would rather practice yoga at home than to pay a small fortune for weekly yoga classes, $600 workshops and $2000 yoga retreats in India or somewhere else. Yes, knowledge of anatomy is important, but this isn't rocket science. It can be learned easily and doesn't justify financing the pension of some certified instructor.

    Regarding mantra chanting in yoga classes. I have had to correct a few yoga instructors who were giving imaginary new age meanings of fairly simple Sanskrit mantras.
    You will find lots of Teachers, and organisations also in the west who are charging minimum fees, allow people to attend classes for free or with less charges when they have monetary issues against "karma yoga" done on the premises etc. and are not centered around creating business opportunities for certified instructors, but have introduced certification to guarantee that a minimum standard of education can be maintained, and i personally have never met a single teacher in the west who is teaching yoga solely out of commercial interest, if you want to earn money there are better opportunities than teaching yoga, infact all instructors i know are barely able to maintain themselves by teaching yoga. It was in in India that i have first met people with no personal interest or knowledge at all of the philosophy and background of yoga and ayurveda but nonetheless teaching classes and offering massages in resorts and hotels purely as an opportunity to earn money.

    I am not trying to give the impression that there is nothing wrong with modern Yoga, in my opinion a lot is wrong with modern Yoga but in the West as well as in India.

    If you say Hatha Yoga has originated outside of the Nath Sampradaya, it is not based on facts, it is a a wrong statement. That it is often repeated does not make it true. Name me one shastra not associated with that Parampara, that is mentioning several poses, Mudras, Bandhas, Shatkarmas, Kundalini and Satchakravedha related Yoga and Nadanusandhana, involving sets of postures and a physical regimen that go beyond the 4-5 seated postures used for meditation we commonly know as part of the Yoga taught in Patanjali Yoga Sutras or Upanishads, Agamas and Tantras.

    Though in modern times Patanjali Yoga sutras are mixed up with Hatha Yoga that is a grave error, a lot of the misunderstandings about Hatha Yoga today are due to mixing up Patanjalis teachings indiscriminately with Hatha Yoga, or even associating Patanjali with being one of the founders or the original founder of Hatha Yoga. Patanjali is teaching Yoga, but not teaching Hatha Yoga. Simple as that.

    Asanas Mudras, Bandhas Shatkarmas as a regimen of physical exercises that make up Hatha Yoga cannot be found in other shastras, that do not originate from the Nath Sampradaya. Practically all of Hatha Yoga Asanas are based on the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, Gheranda Samhita etc. these are the seminal texts used by modern practicioners.

    This is the Hatha Yoga Parampara according to Svatmarama:

    AdinAthadi matsyendra shAbara AnandabhairavAH |
    chauraNgI mIna gorakSha virUpAkSha bileshayAH ||
    manthAnabhairavo yogi siddhabuddhishcha kanthaDiH |
    kauraNTakaH surAnandaH siddhapAdashcha charpaTiH ||
    kAnerI pUravapAdashcha nityAnAtho niranjanaH |
    kapAlI bindunAthashcha kAkachaNDIshwarAdayaH ||
    allamaprabhudevashcha ghorAcholI cha TiNTiNiH |
    vAsukI r nAgabhodashcha khaNDaH kApalikastathA ||
    ityAdayomahAsiddhA haThayogaprabhAvataH |
    khandayitvAkAladandam brahmAnde tu caranti te ||

    1.9 hathapradIpikA
    svAtmArAma

    Of course the Philsosophy of Nath siddhas is based on earlier Traditions, notably there is Kaula Influence influence of early tapasvins of the shramana traditions, and Pashupata and Kapalika ascetic shaiva orders. That some Asanas of the standing varietey can be traced back to tapas exercises of early Munis does not allow us to equal Tapasvins with Hatha Yogis.

    Mudras and Bandhas an important part of Hatha Yoga were also taught by Dattatreya, who, especially in the Mahahrastrian Nath Tradition was also one of the Nathas but is as well associated with the Muni-Tradition going back to Kapila and Yajnavalkya, so we know only of very few shastras that mention Mudras and Bandhas, not even Asanas, and therefore have some association with Hatha Yoga, that are as well early, and originate from a different tradition, but even those sources are indirectly connected with the Natha Siddhas via the Nath Guru Dattatreya, like the Sandilya Upanishad and the Dattatreyayogashastra.

    As i said later Hatha Yoga was taken up by Ramanadi and Dasnami sadhus and also there we find some related shastras but originating from a later time than the Hathayogapradipika and the Natha Shastras.

    That theoretical knowledge and practical experience are considered almost oppossites to each other and also their non sectarianism, has been one of the pillars of the Nath Siddha Sampradaya and can hardly be called modern, most Nathas in the past and also today are opposed to conventional patterns of religion.

    I can look up some shastra pramana for you if you have doubts about that. Also for all the other statements. i can give you more detailed explanations if you like, i can prove what i write.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 03 August 2012 at 07:22 AM.

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