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Thread: Basic questions

  1. #1

    Basic questions

    Om Namo Narayanaya !

    As someone with strong conviction on the fascinating science (and art !) of Jyotish, I find myself grappling for answers when confronted with skeptic friends. As a novice, I request you to enlighten me on these fundamental topics

    1. When is the time of birth - Is it
    a. Time of conception in the womb
    b. Time of the first breath
    c. Time when the baby's feet come to contact with the earth
    d. Or something else ?

    2. Twin paradox - How is it that we see twins born about roughly the same time have personalities that are 180 degrees to each other. Do the small difference in planetary degrees make such a huge difference ?

    Eager to know your views.

    Thanks & Regards

  2. #2
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    Smile Re: Basic questions

    Quote Originally Posted by hms
    When is the time of birth -
    It is the time when the umbilical cord which is attached to mother is cut... This is the time when child gets completely detached from mother. At that time he becomes separate entity-jiva in the Universe. Unless his chord is in touch with his mother, he is considered in union with his mother's Panchabhuta's Body.

    Veda says that the child in the womb is always in oneness with his mother. All his development and actions are governed by Vishnu himself. Vishnu is the protector of all Jivas and the universe.


    Thank You hari govinda
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 06 April 2014 at 04:41 AM.
    Hari On!

  3. #3

    Re: Basic questions

    Dear hms,

    Your question of when to consider the kundali, is a frequently reoccurring question, I have found this response; the question is firmly based in the illusion that time is in someway linear, why for example must this moment be the same for every child? By what measure are you recording the time, relative to what?

    As an example: I have an interesting chart, that of a friend who did not breath for 3 minutes after her birth, which was a cesarean section. She started breathing after having being slapped on the bottom by the Doctor. In that time the lagna had changed rasi (the ascendant changed sign), the initial rasi would have likely caused her infant death due to a very malefic combination, yet She started to breath after lagna had passed in to the different rasi, thus altering the position of the malifics from kendra to apoklima.

    In regards to twins; the special lagna which relate to the mind of the person, move much faster than lagna (the ascendant) these lagna change drastically the way in which the graha interact.

    We might consider it this way:
    Whilst stationary upon the earths surface, due to the earths rotation, we are moving at 1000 miles per hour; twins born 1 minute apart are born with a geometric difference of 16.66 miles; this is without counting that the earth is also in motion about the Sun, at an astronomical 67,000 miles per hour! Now, if we consider this fact of relative motion, it is then easy to understand how in Jyotish, time has its effect upon us by way of the special ascendants and the upagraha; creating a significant difference within our minds and thus characters and consequence, in the events of any twins lives. Although the Lagna (physical body) may be very similar.

    I hope that this helps, please don't hesitate to say if I have been to technical.

    Kind regards.
    Last edited by Mana; 06 April 2014 at 12:06 PM.

  4. #4

    Re: Basic questions

    Thanks for the replies Hinduism Krishna and Mana.

    Your question as to when to consider the kundali, is a frequently reoccurring question, I have this response; the question is firmly based in the illusion that time is in someway linear, why for example must this moment be the same for every child? By what measure are you recording the time, relative to what?
    In that case, does this mean the birth time is not a standard. My conundrum is this - how are we to be sure that the charts we are all analyzing is based on the correct birth time, that we are supposed to be considering? How are we sure about our understanding of the person based on the chart?

    In regards to twins, the special lagna which relate to the mind of the person move much faster than lagna (the ascendant) these lagna change drastically the way in which the graha interact.

    Think of it this way:
    Whilst stationary upon the earths surface we are moving at 1000 miles per hour, due to the earth rotation; twins born 1 minute apart are actually born with a geometric difference of 16.66 miles and this is without counting that the earth moves about the Sun at 67,000 miles per hour! Now, if we consider this fact of relative motion, it is easy to understand why in Jyotish, time has its effect upon us by way of the special ascendants and the upagraha; creating a very large difference between the minds and characters, thus the events in twins lives, even if their Lagna (physical body) are close.
    Rotation of earth between the birth time of the twins definitely adds weigh to the argument and in fact, I can understand it better that way

    There are 2 follow up questions though

    1. What is the special lagna you are referring to and why does it move faster than lagna ?

    2.Since the divisional charts esp the higher ones change much faster in shorter time durations, will this be making a difference ?

    3. Since the lagna degree changes between the times are born, does it have enough power to cause a drastic variation in the twins' lives ?

    Excuse me if the questions are naive, but I am looking for clarity from very wise people in the forum. My conviction on Jyotish is not going to be altered even if these questions linger.

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    Re: Basic questions

    Quote Originally Posted by hms View Post

    ...

    2. Twin paradox - How is it that we see twins born about roughly the same time have personalities that are 180 degrees to each other. Do the small difference in planetary degrees make such a huge difference ?

    Eager to know your views.

    Thanks & Regards



    Dear HMS,

    Regarding twins, one biological fact must be kept in mind. There are two kinds of twins: those arising from the same egg (identical twins) vs those arising from different eggs (fraternal twins). The former are genetically identical, although genes may get expressed differently due to environmental factors etc, later on, whereas the latter (fraternal) type of twins could be very different from one another, in gender and other attributes. The time interval between the two deliveries (birth time) would not be different between the two.

    Twins and multiple births had always been a rather intriguing thing for astrologers. One interesting article I once read in which the astrologer-writer utilized the very similar birthcharts in an interesting manner. She studied the elder of the two (by a few minutes) from the first house, and the second (younger) by considering the third house as lagna.

    Regards,

    Rohiniranjan

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    Re: Basic questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post

    ....
    In regards to twins, the special lagna which relate to the mind of the person move much faster than lagna (the ascendant) these lagna change drastically the way in which the graha interact.

    We might consider it this way:
    Whilst stationary upon the earths surface, due to the earth rotation we are moving at 1000 miles per hour; twins born 1 minute apart are actually born with a geometric difference of 16.66 miles and this is without counting that the earth motion about the Sun, at an astronomical 67,000 miles per hour! Now, if we consider this fact of relative motion, it is easy to understand how in Jyotish, time has its effect upon us by way of the special ascendants and the upagraha; creating a significant difference within the minds and thus the characters and consequently, in the events of twins lives. Although their Lagna (physical body) are very similar.

    I hope that this helps, please don't hesitate to say if I have been a little to technical.

    Kind regards.

    Mana ji,

    Very interesting and pleasing sharing, particularly the last paragraph! At the equator, a point (location) on the earth travels approximately a little over a distance of 1/3rd kilometre EACH second! The displacement would be diminishing increasingly as we move towards the poles. I wonder how this would influence astrologically nativities born close to equator vs a child born in Iceland, for instance. Particularly the significances of location (and time) dependent ascendant (lagna) vs the time-dependent secondary ascendants...

    So much there is to explore in the treasure-chest of Jyotish that we hopefully learn over many lifetimes. One LT even if relatively substantial is simply so short actually :-)

    Regards,

    Rohiniranjan

  7. #7

    Re: Basic questions

    Dear Rohiniranjan Ji,

    Thank you for your kind words I am glad that you have found my offering to be of interest. kAla is of perusha or consciousness, as such its boundary is far from that of Bhu loka, yet it is still very relative to all events here; more so I think than most would imagine.

    kAla is most certainly not a simple linear scale!

    Yes as many lifetimes as is necessary a lovely perspective.

    Kind regards.

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    Re: Basic questions

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by hms View Post

    1. What is the special lagna you are referring to and why does it move faster than lagna ?
    Here is a post with 2 lagna-s reviewed ( to stimulate your interest) - there are more:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...highlight=hora


    iti śiva
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Basic questions

    Dear Mana ji,

    All biological systems (organisms from microbes to mankind) when studied by any system show one common trait: non-linearity! In a highly complex organism that we have evolved into, by the Grace of MA Nature, due to our perceptions and rather intricate interactions (physical, mental, SUPRA-mental, etc) it is best to assume and expect that non-linearity is the important key, including when we study the organism utilizing the marvelous tool that astrology is.

    Although in astrology, we encounter many 'linear' attributes such as in the measurement of several balas, the matrix that we utilize in delineation (analysis and synthesis) the non-linearity gets mostly accounted for. Such is my firm belief.

    Time as captured by the watch (or clock) is seen as a linear entity, however, if we reflect and recall, we perceive time as a non-linear entity which sometimes seems slow (when bored) but at other time seems to fly (when occupied) while at times it seems to stop and even vanishes (when in the meditative state)!

    Regards,

    Rohiniranjan

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    Re: Basic questions

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by Rohiniranjan View Post
    Dear Mana ji,

    All biological systems (organisms from microbes to mankind) when studied by any system show one common trait: non-linearity! In a highly complex organism that we have evolved into, by the Grace of MA Nature, due to our perceptions and rather intricate interactions (physical, mental, SUPRA-mental, etc) it is best to assume and expect that non-linearity is the important key, including when we study the organism utilizing the marvelous tool that astrology is.

    Although in astrology, we encounter many 'linear' attributes such as in the measurement of several balas, the matrix that we utilize in delineation (analysis and synthesis) the non-linearity gets mostly accounted for. Such is my firm belief.

    Time as captured by the watch (or clock) is seen as a linear entity, however, if we reflect and recall, we perceive time as a non-linear entity which sometimes seems slow (when bored) but at other time seems to fly (when occupied) while at times it seems to stop and even vanishes (when in the meditative state)!
    I wish to offer these two things... this is just interesting to know, and is not offered as a rebuttal or counterpoint, just interesting.

    Take all of our society today - we are 99.9% the same genetically ( so say our scientists) i.e. biochemically all humans are 99.9% similar to any other humans.
    So ~variation~ occurs within this 0.1%. All the diversity of the human physique takes place within this variation. Yet look at the diversity of thoughts, values, deeds, actions, abilities, etc.

    re: time - being fast, slow, standing still. I am still of the firm conviction that time does one thing - it measures eternity. In and of itself , it is a characteristic of being human. Humans in diversity see the infinite broken up into pieces - these pieces being things and time. Humans outside of diversity only see wholeness and non-time.

    Jyotish applies to any 'thing' that is bound by birth and death ( time) and does not apply to things that have no beginning and no end ( that would be SELF or ātman, or anuttara, or Being). to say 'things' that are not bound is an oxymoron. Why so? A thing is bound by its very definition - a thing can only exist in space and time. So we fall into the conundrum of words and meaning that bound 'things'. If we say no-thing ( silence or śāntatā¹ or mauna¹) it is closer to the truth. Yet then how is truth transmitted ? We can leave this for another time.

    iti śiva

    words
    • mauna - silence
    • śāntatā - quietness; peace
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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