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Thread: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

  1. #241
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam Isavasya ji and all
    There are lots of if and buts and personal opinions, through the lack of time I pick on two or three points

    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post
    Pranaam ganesh prasad ji

    Even a child born in a brahmin family is considered a sudra till he is fit to be initiated.

    janmana jayate sudrah
    samskarad bhaved dvijah
    veda-pathad bhaved vipro
    brahma janatiti brahmanah.


    Now we know when a child is born to any family, there is a period of Asudhi ie.sutak, not that the child is Sudra varna, even in Satpath brahmana, when the kumar is born, he cries give me a name because without that I am sinful.

    Well I never knew child had to be fit to receive his initiation, yes 'samskarad bhaved dvijah'

    namkaran, jatkarma, upanaya these are all given to a child, he is hardly going to display his fitness at that early stage.

    There is a high responsibility placed on a brahmana and there is a higher price to pay should he fail in his duties, some like us to believe that varna can be interchanged at a whim, good for them but that is not what Lord Krishna says, It is better to engage in one's own duty, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's duty and perform it perfectly---bg18.47 however we may want to read this verse Krishna is clearly saying change is not advisable.

    Chandragupta moriya has been freely quoted as a sudra, I like to know what authority decided that without any ambiguity because I have read, all being on internet so I will not insist that to be true that he was a kshatriya.
     
    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam Isavasya ji and all
    There are lots of if and buts and personal opinions, through the lack of time I pick on two or three points

    I don't understand if you have lack of time, why are you indulging in this debate, you are free to carry your opinion and I am free to, you can peacefully disagree with me, I have no problems. You seem to be hell bent on proving 'Only My ideology is right '. By the way whatever I write to question about perverted state of varna/caste system, you don't have any answer except lack of time and don't want to see the mess which has been created. You have no problems in giving such hilarious logic as 'Rajput by name means son of the royals, therefore they can only be Kshatriya', when I tell you to see real condition and what is the normal occupation of so called so many of born son of the royals, you don't have time to answer me.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post

    Now we know when a child is born to any family, there is a period of Asudhi ie.sutak, not that the child is Sudra varna, even in Satpath brahmana, when the kumar is born, he cries give me a name because without that I am sinful.
    The sloka which I quoted is very clear and exact in meaning. It means
    "By birth every one is a shudra, by samskars he becomes a Dvija (i.e., twice-born). By learning (studying Vedas), he becomes a Vipra and by realizing Brahman, he attains the status of a Brahmana.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post

    [Well I never knew child had to be fit to receive his initiation, yes 'samskarad bhaved dvijah'
    I can see todays world, people go on living life of trash, earn like vaishya or sudra do business like a vasihya but claim to be holier tan thau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    namkaran, jatkarma, upanaya these are all given to a child, he is hardly going to display his fitness at that early stage.

    There is a high responsibility placed on a brahmana and there is a higher price to pay should he fail in his duties, some like us to believe that varna can be interchanged at a whim, good for them but that is not what Lord Krishna says, It is better to engage in one's own duty, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's duty and perform it perfectly---bg18.47 however we may want to read this verse Krishna is clearly saying change is not advisable.
    Fine , this is not the interpretation for everyone sir, many scholars translate it other ways, you can like it your way but not force it the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Chandragupta moriya has been freely quoted as a sudra, I like to know what authority decided that without any ambiguity because I have read, all being on internet so I will not insist that to be true that he was a kshatriya.
     
    I am from magadha myself, i have heard it from all the scholars, and even all the senior people, I dont now how to go back 2300 years back and film him, By the I wont have fights for this silly thing.


    I am finding this discussion going no where. You see people following materialistic life style of today, doing jobs in MNC , and yet talk about occupation attached to varna.


    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    The brahmins have become the most favourite whipping boy for such political parties. Those who are in foreign countries don't understand the implications of strengthening "varna by birth" theory. It is the Indians who have to bear the brunt. Think of the brahmins and other upper castes who are discriminated against in all stages of life in India on the "varna by birth" theory. It has almost become a curse to be born in India in a brahmin or in any upper caste family. If you are wealthy, you can manage ... what happens to the people who are poor, downtrodden but labelled as "upper caste" ?

    Anyway, I have already spoken more than my quota on this issue. I bow out of this thread here.

    Exactly devotee ji, even I am troubled by all that is going. Now WB government has come up with 10% extra reservation for non-hindus, it all comes to fact that very soon the lovers of sanatan dharm will be totally out populated and more pakistan, bangladesh, kashmir is to be formed, kerala, wb, assam ? eh we wont unite ? The pain is some people don't understand the pains of millions of poor brahmins or rajputs etc who have lost most of their lands since 47, who are living in desperate situation , not interested in any must to follow occupation, but getting forced to hard-work since childhood with aim of finding a good living. These people have bleakest future. But here are people who are giving enough ammunition to mayas, karunanidhis,lalus,paswans etc to kill sanatam dharm even more forcefully. I wish lord shiva dissolves his creation soon enough.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Prsanam

    I am sorry you can not believe me when i said i have no time, i don't have to justify my self to you.
    you have come across one very frustrated fellow, and it shows in your post. you have adopted a defensive stance and has tired to deflect the real answer to my question by your rants. you have hardly answered my questions split them and answered them out of context.

    so have it your way

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste ganesh prasad ji,


    Thanks for showering the adjectives, by the way seeing your staunch beliefs not just extending till your own swadharm but deciding the fate of each and every other human on this planet, all i can say is best of luck.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post
    I wish lord shiva dissolves his creation soon enough.
    2012
    satay

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    namaskar,


    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Those who are in foreign countries don't understand the implications of strengthening "varna by birth" theory. OM
    I find this to be quite a generalization. I found it funny.
    There are many here that are in a foreign country but were raised in India. I think they understand the issue.

    Those in foreign countries say: Stick to sastra and don't change things based on political pressures of the country!

    No?
    Now, I don't want to keep this can of worms open but just made the above comments as friends. Hope you understand my joke here.

    Let's end this thread on this note as it is going no where. No one is ready to back down.
    satay

  7. #247

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    so Ganeshprasad, do you believe that everybody born into the brahmin caste has brahmana qualities and likewise for all other castes?

  8. #248
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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam rainycity

    Generally yes but this quality has to be natured, sanskars has to be instilled from the very beginning.

    There are a lot of permutations to consider. Like if you saw a seed the creeper springs up if proper care is not taken it will wither, all the while it is alive that creeper will be a particular species regardless of its health. Or if a lion cub is raised as a rabbit it will eventually saw its trait.
    I have a plane to catch so forgive me if I do not reply.


    pancaitani maha-baho
    karanani nibodha me
    sankhye krtante proktani
    siddhaye sarva-karmanam
    adhisthanam tatha karta
    karanam ca prthag-vidham
    vividhas ca prthak cesta
    daivam caivatra pancamam

    Learn from Me, O Arjuna, the five causes, as described in the Saamkhya doctrine, for the accomplishment of all actions. (18.13)
    The physical body or the seat of Karma, the doer or the Guna, various instruments or the organs (of perception and action), various Pranas or bioimpulses, and the fifth is the presiding deities (or the five basic elements). (18.14)

    O mighty-armed Arjuna, learn from Me of the five factors which bring about the accomplishment of all action. These are declared in sankhya philosophy to be the place of action, the performer, the senses, the endeavor, and ultimately the daivam. 13/14

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté TTA

    This subject has been contentious here on HDF over the years , and I am not here to fan the flames.

    IMHO a Hindu comes from birth, and not from proclamation. Why so? Hindu as I understand it was originally a secular term used to depict all the inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent (or Hindustan) irrespective of their religious affiliation. It seems straight forward to consider one is a Hindu if from Hindustan.

    Yet it is my firm belief that one can practice and assimilate sanātana dharma even if not aboriginal to India. It is universal by nature and we are blessed as a people that India and those of Hindustan have carried sanātana dharma for all to view, consider and practice. For this we are indebited World-wide to the effort and the compassion of the Indian people to be patient with the rest of the world to catch up.

    praām
    Namaste Yajvan,

    And I agree with you. If you read my posts with some discretion, you will see that I am just keen on the fact that only people who are truly sincere should take up the virtues of Sanatana Dharma or anything associated with it. For far too long and for far too many people, MISAPPROPRIATION of not on Hindu philosophy, but of many Indian traditions has been commonplace.

    This is precisely the role of a guru and dIkSa. Sanatana Dharma is not a 'drink to be tried out for a year'. It IS the nature of reality and to those coming from outside, who don't look at it that way due to ignorance, trample on Hindus' sentiments with impunity.

    That is what I am against.

    Respect, devotion, and sensitivity needs to be shown towards Hinduism/India by those interested. Otherwise, they are like the robbers who attack the elephant to take its ivory tusks and leave it writhing in pain. That is simply something that cannot be allowed and nor should it be.

    Namaskar.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste Saidevo,

    An excellent brief of this sensitive topic.

    Varna is by BIRTH, ACTION, and CHARACTER.

    Namaskar.

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    namaste Isavasya.



    01. In the olden days, it was the responsibility of the King to ensure that everyone conformed to his varNa. The Dharma ShAstras and other texts gave the authority to the King to punish those who swerved out of their varNa and cast them into the avarNa group, for a certain period or even permanently. If such a system existed today, brahmins would definitely follow their varNa with vigour and dedication.

    02. In the society of our olden days, brahmins were supported for their living by the other varNas, so they had no necessity or reason to worry about the three basic necessities of life--food, clothes and shelter--and devote their entire time to the varNa dharma. Even some fifty or sixty years back, some brahmin families in villages subsisted on unja-vritti--getting alms of rice for cooking. And today, most of the brahmin families in villages whose breadwinners are temple priests, live in poverty, with no scope to give their children competitive worldly education.

    03. Since a person's guNa-karma decides the birth which in turn decides the varNa, even in the olden days, some of the brAhmaNas practised the occupations of other varNas and excelled in them: Sage drONAchArya is a classic example, and there were many other examples detailed in my post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...32&postcount=6 . This shows that although the King had the responsibility to regulate varNa dharma, he also had the discretion to recognize and promote deserving cases, based on their skills and social acceptability.

    04. Again in the olden days, all the three varNas--brAhmaNas, kShatriyas and vyshyas--were initiated as dvijas by the upanayanam ceremony and sent to the gurukulam for studying the Vedas (although it was mostly brahmins who chanted the Vedas in rituals). The shUdras were exempted because Vedic Sanskrit was not their mother tongue and they had no time for such endeavours.

    In the totally changed circumstances today,

    • How many people from the kShatriya and vyshya varNa wear the holy thread they are eligible to, and are willing to take up the study of Vedas?

    • Although politicians would make the world believe that the shUdras are not allowed to study the Vedas, how many of the shUdras have the real inclination and preference towards it, when even the brahmins whose occupation it is, struggle to make both ends meet in their daily life?

    • The objective of the politicians is to destroy Hindu Dharma, not just the varNa. Since they can't give logical reasoning for abolition of varNa and caste, which system is in fact a guardian of Hindu Dharma, they declare themselves as atheists and secularists to the public and attack Hinduism.

    Had it not been for Gandhiji, India would have been a Hindu nation, and would have preserved the time-honoured varNa and caste system which has distinctions with explicit strictures against discrimination. Such distinction with utmost discrimination does exist in all forms of hierarchical systems in public and private life of the modern society, and this is because of the human guNa-karma and ego.

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