Page 1 of 13 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 122

Thread: My Experiences with ISKCON

  1. #1

    My Experiences with ISKCON

    Since a number of ISKCONites or those who at least defend ISKCON have preached their school and attacked others of different schools, I think it is time to present the other side of the story. I am going to share my experiences with ISKCON which are simply not positive. Note that my experiences here refer to multiple temples.

    For starters, if you show a genunine interest in spirituality or advancing yourself, instead of them trying to help you they try to use you and all the while pretending that they help you. For example, the "Krishna Seva" in my opinion is taken to the extreme. It is one thing to teach someone to humble themselves by encouraging them to do some seva around the place. Yet as time goes by you start realizing that you are spending virtually 100% of your time serving them but they are spending 0% of their time serving you.

    This caught my attention when every time I would ever ask a question about something or have a legitimate concern, they either could not answer the question or they would simply direct you to chant, do some seva, or read Prabhupada's books. Yet people claiming to be big gurus still could not answer basic questions and often would not even take the time to look at you.

    Additionally, I noticed a disturbing hypocrisy between their attitudes toward those who live at the temple and those who live outside. When you express a genuine interest in spirituality, instead of giving you constructive advice they try to control your life. "Move into the temple" is the repeated mantra and if you dare to mention that you have responsibilities outside of the temple such as family or work, they criticize you without even knowing anything about you or your life. It is quite hypocritical for the fact that these temples rely primarily on those working outside of the temple for donations to keep the system running.

    Everything I have ever seen has been little more than a show. They keep preaching about chanting the Maha Mantra, giving Gita lectures, and encouraging devotees to do seva, yet they cannot even answer simple questions or spend 5 minutes of quality time listening to your comments or concerns. I am referring to the management as well as live-in devotees when I refer to "they." I have spent years visiting these temples and have become burned out with it. I thought I would give Vaishnavism a chance but from what I have experienced they give it a bad name.

    I have observed a cult-like atmosphere where you cannot dare to disagree yet the people in charge clearly aren't qualified. They babble on and on and on about "Bhakti" or "love" yet not once do you ever actually see them practicing it. It is pretty ridiculous that people can claim they are doing loving service by chanting the Maha Mantra yet only want to use other people without helping them. I've never stayed in any of these temples, just lived on the outside but it is very observable. If they have so much "bhakti" then isn't it strange that they are always interested in what you can do for the temple yet the thought of what the temple can do for you is not in their minds?

    It is almost like a conspiracy. The second you have some inspiring conversations with other devotees such as in the parking lot outside of the temple or in the hallway or other area, one or more of the live-in devotees come to break up your conversation and ask you to do some seva or participate in their upcoming program yet when you turn around to ask them for some help, they have no time and no interest. At this point they refer you to just chant or read a book. The same goes if you are meditating or chanting. They actually will interrupt you and ask you to help them but again won't spend a minute of their time helping you. Not to mention that you can't chant or meditate as these temple rooms are never quiet but instead full of screaming kids and adult chit-chat.

    Not to mention I have seen certain gurus introducted as speakers and when I searched them on the internet, they had spent time in prison on serious felony charges. I won't name names here but it seems like more of them have been in trouble with the law than have not. This includes "cooking the books" or "money laundering" as well as child abuse going back to the 1980s with the gurukulas. Others include selling drugs and possessing illegal firearms.

    Last but not least, I don't appreciate the brainwashing that goes on there. I can see to a certain degree that if you live at the temple, you have to follow their rules. What is ridiculous is to be constantly criticized for how you live outside of the temple. For instance, if you say that you watched a great movie last night, their response is "why would you watch a movie instead of chant?" and then babble on about how watching movies is just wasting time in the material world. Same if you have hobbies or other interests that are independent of spirituality. You mention that you like hiking or coin collecting and they state respectively that hiking is a waste of time and that you should just chant and that instead of collecting coins you should give everything you own to the temple and move in. Additionally, they advertise themselves as "non-sectarian" and "all-inclusive" yet they are more sectarian and exclusive than a Southern Baptist church.

    A couple more examples: Every time I have stated that I am a Hindu people either say something critical about Hinduism or say that there is no such thing as "Hinduism" or otherwise have their eyes go big. It is hypocritical because Gaudiya Vaishnavism is a Hindu sect. Second, every time I ever ask a question about whether someone has been seen there lately or not and such person happens to be of the opposite sex, they get paranoid and demand to want to know why I am asking about "women" at the temple.

    I hate to use the word cult, but everything I have experienced at these temples is just like a cult where everyone has to think the same, act the same, do the same things, and even feel the same. It is a group think mentality where no one can have any opinions or lifestyle that isn't pre-approved by the group. I don't believe that this is proper spirituality. It is one thing for people to believe in the same religion and another thing when they cannot have any outside interests. More examples: If you travel, they cannot figure out why you didn't travel to visit other ISKCON temples; if you visit other temples they cannot imagine that you visited some that weren't ISKCON; if you read books they cannot understand why some of them aren't BBT books; if you hang out with friends outside of the temple they cannot understand why you would not be doing something temple-related; etc.

    It is a group think that in my opinion is destructive and parasitic. They go to arms length criticizing anything deemed "material" as "maya" yet I actually realized there is more peacefulness and normalcy having a couple of beers at a local bar than dealing with all the mental cases at the temple. If that doesn't speak for itself about Kali Yuga, I don't know what does. I have actually gone a few times with some temple goers to a bar for a couple of drinks and had really powerful spiritual discussions there and felt like I gained so much more than I would have gained if I had instead gone to the temple where no spiritual discussion would have been possible. Pretty sad.

    Some of you may have had different experiences but these are the experiences that I have had. The material world is already pretty bad but after going to these temples and dealing with these people enough times I have realized that the material world in many cases is actually more spiritual than these nut houses. I call it a nut house because every time I go it is almost impossible to have a normal conversation or to even see one person smile and spread some real bhakti instead of just rehearsed propaganda. If you don't know what I mean then what I am saying is that real bhakti would at least include a friendly greeting, smile, and willingness to spend just one minute of their time sharing with you. By rehearsed propaganda, this so called bhakti is basically this: "My mother was killed in a car accident/just go chant and be happy...my wife left me/would you help do the dishes?...I have a headache today/move in and all the pain will go away...I've got to get home to feed the cats/who needs cats when you have Krishna" In other words, no normal conversation, just brainwashed coded responses to everything. ~BYS~

  2. #2
    http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html

    The above website gives the "BITE" model to test whether the organization you are a part of is a cult. These letters stand for behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control. When the control is considered reasonable it is not a cult. When it is excessive, it is a cult. In other words, any institution has some level of control with all four of these--schools, the workplace, religion, politics, family, etc. But when the control is so excessive that the institution is an addiction and the institution and your life is one and the same, then there may be a problem.

    Behavior Control:

    1. Regulation of individual’s physical reality

    a. Where, how and with whom the member lives and associates with
    b. What clothes, colors, hairstyles the person wears
    c. What food the person eats, drinks, adopts, and rejects
    d. How much sleep the person is able to have
    e. Financial dependence
    f. Little or no time spent on leisure, entertainment, vacations

    For live-in devotees, I would say that a, b, and c are not abnormal. For outside devotees, they simply shouldn't tell people how to live life outside of the temple unless they specifically ask for advice. D is not healthy. While six hours of solid and uninterrupted sleep is generally enough, different people's bodies have different needs and since many times sleep is interrupted, six hours is not enough sleep. As for e, I understand that a Brahmin isn't supposed to have personal wealth if he/she is a brahmacharya. However, in this day and age, when the material world is unpredictable and there may be unscrupulous people within the temple, asking someone to give everything they own to the temple when they move in is absurd considering that they may move out in a few years but won't be able to as they would have no money to start a new life again. This is a dangerous form of control in my opinion. As to f, telling a brahmacharya devotee of 20-30 years who has done more seva than one can imagine that he cannot spend two hours of his life watching a movie of his choice (even if outside of the temple) is nuts in an adult world.

    2. Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals

    Not necessarily a problem.

    3. Need to ask permission for major decisions

    This is a problem. Adults should be able to manage their own lives regardless of whether they live in or out of temple. Devotees should not be treated like children where the management should be considered the parents. A live-in devotee should not have to ask permission to visit his dying mother in the hospital.

    4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors

    If the devotee considers everything to be wonderful, this isn't a problem. If the devotee, however, notices some things that aren't to his liking then it is a problem. This 'keep it positive' atmosphere is brainwashing. The second things aren't going normal, they don't want to hear it, see it, or deal with it but would rather just sweep it under the rug.

    5. Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques- positive and negative).

    This is a problem. Apparently when you blow the whistle on their nonsense, they throw you out of the temple. They did this with me when I was just there praying. So I chewed the person out and he called the police (apparently for hurting his feelings). I of course left the area and no police came because no crime was committed. Now the person who called the police has been fired. So there is some justice left in such a nutty environment.

    5. Individualism discouraged; group think prevails

    Definitely the case. If you even talk about a neutral subject with another devotee, they try to stop you. If you aren't talking about Krishna or something temple-related, they don't want you to speak. They consider such talk as "mundane" "maya" and "material."

    6. Rigid rules and regulations

    Maybe, maybe not. I have seen both sides here. Asking someone who lives there to do seva and participate in the daily activities only makes sense. Searching their room and listenting to their phone conversations is crossing the line.

    7. Need for obedience and dependency

    Yes. Once you have given all your finances and belongings to the temple and moved in and then realized that things aren't the way they said they would be, you are trapped as you have no way to get out.

    Information Control:

    1. Use of deception

    a. Deliberately holding back information
    b. Distorting information to make it acceptable
    c. Outright lying

    Yes. Two of the temples I have visted to have obvious signs of money laundering.

    2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged

    a. Books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio
    b. Critical information
    c. Former members
    d. Keep members so busy they don’t have time to think

    Yes. This must be why they can never spend five minutes of their time having a conversation with you or answering spiritual questions.

    3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines

    a. Information is not freely accessible
    b. Information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid
    c. Leadership decides who "needs to know" what

    Yes. It is amazing what live-in devotees do not know. Anyone can go to Google and find out simple things they've been blinded from hearing about for years. The entire GBC is suspicious and appears to be involved in illegal money laundering. In the United States, it is a law that non-profit organizations accurately report their incomes and expenditures. The secretiveness and bizarre figures on annual reports such as "prasad $50,000" or "hundi $100,000" when there hardly is prasad and the hundi is always empty are suspicious. Yet none of the young bhaktas in the organization can see what is right in front of their eyes.

    4. Spying on other members is encouraged

    a. Pairing up with "buddy" system to monitor and control
    b. Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership

    Yes. Apparently I'm already "marked."

    5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda

    a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc.
    b. Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult sources

    I don't think this is the case here.

    6. Unethical use of confession

    a. Information about "sins" used to abolish identity boundaries
    b. Past "sins" used to manipulate and control; no forgiveness or absolution

    Not necessarily but they expect even those living outside of the temple to be too much of an "open book." They want your entire life story on their desk the day you walk in the door. It is almost like they are looking for a weakness somewhere so that they can "fix" you up.

    Thought Control

    1. Need to internalize the group’s doctrine as "Truth"

    a. Map = Reality
    b. Black and White thinking
    c. Good vs. evil
    d. Us vs. them (inside vs. outside)

    Definitely the case. They make comparisons with mutually exclusive concepts. For instance, if you smoke ganja you are considered to be a karmi to them even though you may put a lot more spiritual qualities into practice than the ones doing the criticizing who instead focus more on how much cash is entering the hundi than on practicing Krishna Consciousness. Once again, if more spiritual value is obtained over a couple of beers at a bar and having a great conversation than being ignored for two hours at the temple, what does it say?

    2. Adopt "loaded" language (characterized by "thought-terminating clichés"). Words are the tools we use to think with. These "special" words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous "buzz words".

    Yes. "Just chant...just focus on the deities...blah blah blah." Having a critical discussion is impossible as only the same coded phrases are used over and over.

    3. Only "good" and "proper" thoughts are encouraged.

    Yes. If your opinions are not identical to those in charge, you are a deviant and "marked." At least that was the case with me and numerous other people I know. Another thing, it seems like you are marked if you come across as being too intelligent. In other words, if you are not easily duped, you are seen as a potential whistleblower to anything that may go on. For instance, someone living there may not see the nonsense that goes on when they are around it all the time yet someone from the outside can see it quite easily. Just like everyone can detect some said person as a heroin addict yet his wife is the last one to find out. That is because all the others are less influenced by the said person.

    4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism.

    a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
    b. Chanting
    c. Meditating
    d. Praying
    e. Speaking in "tongues"
    f. Singing or humming

    Yes. The second you point out stuff that is blatantly wrong (or even illegal) they accuse you of fault-finding. For instance, if you question why the hundi money was placed in a black garbage bag and carried out to a van late at night, they tell you to just chant and not worry about it. Or if you ask why they are hiring illegal immigrants to help out and then suddenly decide to not pay them, they tell you to just go and read a Prabhupada book.

    I am not making this stuff up because I just want to attack this institution. The reality is that some undercover police officers really need to slip in and clean this organization up for the welfare of all people.

  3. #3
    5. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate

    Correct. If you question why such an "enlightened" guru cannot even say a complete thought and why they cannot even be honest about where the money goes, you are seen as a fault-finder. Giving an obvious reality check will be dismissed as "conspiracy theory."

    6. No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful

    They say they aren't Hindu yet follow a Hindu tradition. Then they say they are Hindu and encourage Hindus to come to the temple and donate time and money. They say they are non-sectarian yet won't accept any religious practice outside of ISKCON. I actually mentioned chanting some other mantras in addition to the Maha Mantra and before I could even finish the sentence, they already interrupted and said it would be useless. Again, more sectarian than a Southern Baptist church.

    Emotional Control

    1. Manipulate and narrow the range of a person’s feelings.

    Yes. If you are not happy, they cannot understand why. They tell you to just keep chanting as if chanting is the medicine for everything.

    2. Make the person feel like if there are ever any problems it is always their fault, never the leader’s or the group’s.

    Yes. They always say there must be something you are doing wrong because you are a fault-finder. You mention that they shouldn't leave the door open at midnight since it is a high-crime neighborhood or that it isn't wise to just leave the gas on the stove unattended and the response is "Krishna will protect us. Don't worry." When you mention that God helps those who help themselves, the response is "Just go and finish your rounds."

    3. Excessive use of guilt

    I am aware of a woman who was sexually harrassed by temple management. When she complained to the police and the GBC and thus moved out, the new line was that she was the one who was behaving in a way that caused them to taunt her.

    If any of you people think I am making all this stuff up about the ISKCON experiences I have had and the people I know who have been involved with them, think again. I would have no qualms repeating the same thing under oath in a court of law.

    a. Identity guilt

    1. Who you are (not living up to your potential)
    2. Your family
    3. Your past
    4. Your affiliations
    5. Your thoughts, feelings, actions

    Yes. Your entire life is irrelevant to them. Just keep chanting and keep doing what they say. I have actually witnessed how whatever niceness is there suddenly stops as soon as your seva or donations stop. I was also criticized on numerous occasions for having a coffee drinking habit, having a full time job, and not getting up in the morning at 4 am like they do. Note that I never told these people what kind of a Hindu I was or even whether or not I was following their system and I wasn't even living in the temple. Isn't it bizarre to tell someone who doesn't even live there how to live their private lives?

    b. Social guilt
    c. Historical guilt

    Maybe, maybe not. Can't think of any examples.

    4. Excessive use of fear

    a. Fear of thinking independently
    b. Fear of the "outside" world
    c. Fear of enemies
    d. Fear of losing one’s "salvation"
    e. Fear of leaving the group or being shunned by group
    f. Fear of disapproval

    Yes. They kept saying "move in to the temple" and referring to how in the material world everyone is crazy. They are pretty much correct on the second part. Most people are crazy although in different ways. The sad part was that the people on the "inside" seem even more nuts than the people on the outside.

    5. Extremes of emotional highs and lows.

    Not necessarily but it seems like you are programmed to be happy even if you aren't. If you aren't as energetic in the bhajan as they prefer, they notice.

    6. Ritual and often public confession of "sins".

    Haven't seen this.

    7. Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group.

    I never lived on the inside so I wouldn't know but I could see how over time this could develop. If a person dumps all of their family and friends and shuts off association with all people that aren't inside the group and then suddenly wants to go back into the outside world, like a prisoner finally getting out of prison, I could see the fear of not finding one's nitch. Hence, another form of control.

    a. No happiness or fulfillment "outside"of the group
    b. Terrible consequences will take place if you leave: "hell"; "demon possession"; "incurable diseases"; "accidents"; "suicide"; "insanity"; "10,000 reincarnations"; etc.
    c. Shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family.
    d. Never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group’s perspective, people who leave are: "weak"; "undisciplined"; "unspiritual"; "worldly"; "brainwashed by family, counselors"; seduced by money, sex, rock and roll.

    Yes to a certain degree. They act like their small ashram is the only safe haven on earth and cannot figure out why you don't want in or if you are in cannot figure out why you want out. They cannot figure out why if you want spirituality, that you won't move in and become a part of their group yet it is actually more fulfilling spiritually to stay in the material society and live a balanced lifestyle. In other words it is much easier to meditate and pray in your home while living the life you prefer without having someone constantly tell you how to pray or meditate. Likewise, it is more conducive to growth when one can consciously choose not to eat meat, gamble, drink, smoke, or have sex than to have a group of people monitoring and controlling them so that they couldn't do those things even if they wanted to.

    Enough said for now. Notice that I am not calling anyone a name nor am I saying that this is true with every temple, every devotee, or that what I have experienced with ISKCON is the same as everyone else's experiences. The reason I am bringing up these critical views is because I feel that people need to have both sides of the story and are entired to the whole truth and not just some of the truth. For decades, people have advertised this group as the luxury of spirituality when that is simply not the case. There has been so much criminal activity in the organization since the 1970s that anyone with half a brain should proceed with serious caution when involving themselves with it.

    Read the book "Betrayal of the Spirit" or "Monkey on a Stick" for an alternative view on how this organization isn't as perfect as people would like to believe. I can accept something not being perfect but these books describe criminal activity on the massive scale including rapes, robberies, drug trafficking, child molestation, and murder. Also note that no where am I saying that the organization is "evil" but numerous people pass this organization off as if it is virtually perfect and faultness. Most new bhaktas that join in have no idea about the long history of crime in the organization. That is immoral and dangerous and I will not hesitate to blow the whistle if I see harmful activity going on. Again, people deserve to see both sides of the organization and not just the side that the organization wants you to hear. ~BYS~

  4. #4
    Namaskar BYS,

    I have seen that most organizations and ashrams post the founder degrade into some kind of money making operation. These happens with even small ashrams of great god realized souls. The persons who take control just use the establishment of the Guru and his teachings to use for their vested purpose. This is sad but bound to happen in this Age. Let us say that even a self-realized guru cannot stop such karmic consequences. So when searching for spirituality~one needs to search a teacher, not a organization. A true teacher often opens an organization just to dissiminate teachings in a slightly organized way. After his death~if the persons who takes charge is worthy of being a teacher, only then should we approach the oraganization. This is true for any saint however famous and God-realized. Sangha or Organization is necessary in kali yuga, but as far as spirituality is concerned, the focal point is teachers and teachings. In politics or social service the organization is more important. Spiritual organizations with a political agenda or social commitment will be less susceptable to getting degraded~because members have a real commitment there. Pure spiritual organizations stinks most of the time when the Guru is gone. This is my observation.

    The case of ISKCON may be the above effect very much confounded by a twisted version of vaishnavism. Certainly the cult characters you describe I have never seen. Looks like something is fundamentally different. I have seen other hindu ashrams becoming money making racket after the founder, but they were not cults~very open like any hindu organization. Some of your points go much beyond fraud (spiritual and otherwise) and very much border on crime!!!
    Last edited by Singhi Kaya; 02 May 2006 at 01:04 AM.

  5. I would agree with much of what has been said here although I think the terms cult and brainwashing are pretty meaningless. ISKCON is an assertive religious organisation out to make converts, but if that is not what you want then you can always leave. And what does brainwashing mean? To preach to someone and convince him of your views is not brainwashing any more than watching a movie and becoming caught up with its ethos. In fact films and TV are probably more effective than preaching at brainwashing people. And I know many members of ISKCON who are serious Vaishnavas and are devout and learned. It is not for me, but they seem to be inspired by that form of dharma.

    The main point I would make is really to agree with what is posted above. Religious organisations have an inherent tendency towards power, control and materialism. Hierarchies seem to be the antithesis of spirituality because they offer the most enticing form of degrading temptation, that of power and status. In an institution we can wield power over others and gain influence and status. I have come to the view that religion should be practised at an individual level; listen to what others have to say, meditate and reflect on it but avoid the institution. There is too much scope there for degradation of the spirit. Perhaps the ideal is a sangha where like minded persons gather together to share their realisations, but informally and without leadership, posts or status. It is hard to think of a religious institution that at some point has not descended into the very depths of materialism, the very antithesis of its stated objective.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    April 2006
    Age
    48
    Posts
    371
    Rep Power
    0
    I too felt that, not in ISKCON but in 6th to 8th standards.

    I used to go to school to find a big scrap, a room full of innocents who knew nothing of the subject, still in the room with lot of expectation. Somebody mother or father would had died few days before, but will be in the classroom as if he is going to achieve something great. Somebody father would had desisted them, still this guy is in the class room.

    When I had some doubts none of the students could help me with. When I ask my teachers, do not ask me, real scraps, simple answers, THAT PART IS NOT IN YOUR CURRICULUM. Many a times I hear teachers say learn from the student who has got 1st rank or 2nd rank and so, when you ask them - same rehearsed propaganda - DO YOUR HOMEWORK; DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME WITH TV; SPEND MORE TIME WITH TEXTBOOKS; TAKE TUITIONS (as if they are going to teach me something new in the Tuitions); IF IN DOUBT JUST BYHEART THE TEXTS FOR MARKS AND CLARIFY YOUR DOUBT LATER (that later never ever occurs). I tried even with teachers, they too repeated the same propaganda

    Then I found a new thing. It is not with the school and not with fellows but the person to whom I am putting the question is the wrong person. Now I had two things to do when I had a query - 1. When I know the person is a wrong person, do not ask him for guideline; 2. Try to good and smart so that I will find a person who can answer my questions (Unless I fall in line with other fellows, this will be impossible for explicit disobeyance will be treated otherwise)

    Much later I found few teachers who never visited my classrooms are good enough to answer my queries. Even the toughest questions - my 7th standard science book said newton did feather and guenia experiment but my 8th standard book said it is Galileo who did that, while other teachers cleared my doubt saying it is rubbish, the very few I found clarrified it - It is Galileo, but I asked what about the text, they said, If you want truth it is Galileo, but if you choose to get marks in 7th standard it is Newton. Luckily I was in 9th standard hence had no interest to align

    Similar is the case with ISKCON. When you have access to very few and you know they are worth for, it is not the school nor its teachers but the very occupants who are at fault and person who is questioning them

    The very school which I said a scrap rooms, made me a lawyer giving me sound fundamentals. It is this scrap school which taught me what to do, when to do, how to do. It is the same scrap school which has refined my argumenting style which helped me with my law course and practise

    Now I find some of schoolmates are in good position but many, of course, are dwindling.

    All I learnt is, if the school teachers are not for you, take only what it can give you and do not pose any questions; When you find right teachers take the maximum out of them.

    All the more it is also important to note, while doing a graduate course, you can visit schools just to see what is going on but not to educate yourself on basics again.

    If the ISKCON is meant for foreigners in a foreign land, there is no point in expecting them to give us wonderful ideas to reach Moksha immediately. Why ISKCON, no one can solve if someones mother dies, if someones wife has left him, if you have headache. If someones wife has left, two choices - divorce her or give a police compalint as the case suits. If you have a headache visit a doctor if it chronic or just take a tablet. There is no point in me going to temple and cry in front of lord for I am having a headache. There is no point in cursing the preists of the temple who ask me whether I can help them with their dishes while I am reporting headache to them for they are not doctors.

    Spiritualism is not a panacea for all world materialistic problems. If somebodys mother has died, that sorrow haunts him, why ISKCON no one can give another mother or solve this problem materialistically but I can divert his mind from the sorrow - Keep repeating this (Sloka) till you are tired and do it from the bottom of my heart - does not this leaves ones heart little bit light

    My wife has left me - If I am worried about quenching by basic instincts ISKCON is no place; but if I am worried about the haunting sorrow of that, I can very well help with the dishes and forget the sorrow for some time concentrating on something else. Who knows - probably doing with the dishes might help me in being a better father to my children whom my wife had left with me - why dishes; I will wash clothes, cook food and can keep my children happy

    Now to summarise I can see two problems

    1. Wrong persons are enquired upon for abstract queries
    2. Wrong solutions sought at wrong time at the wrong place

    Again, I want to say this, every person views changes and differs. Inspite of saying so much, I do not visit ISKCON without any work relations for I have my own Philosphies and practises.

    Having said that, I just want to add the following(the following has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, but I am giving it just as an example unrelated to the thread)

    Wolf might attack a sheep flock; it is the duty of the shepherd to drive the wolf out. When this happens wolf complaints that shepherd is violating law of nature - wolf's vey existence by denying it food; wherein sheep do praise the shepherd for protecting its life thus protecting the law of nature - right to live; Only the shepherd knows when he is going to kill the sheep for his own food thus is obliged to drive the wolf and protect the sheep for his own interest. This is world. Every one have their own view of things. What I had submitted is my own view of what is happening

    Jai shree krishna
    Last edited by ramkish42; 02 May 2006 at 02:09 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    mrityuloka
    Age
    52
    Posts
    3,729
    Rep Power
    337
    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Now to summarise I can see two problems

    1. Wrong persons are enquired upon for abstract queries
    2. Wrong solutions sought at wrong time at the wrong place
    responsibility rests with both the seeker and the organization especially if the organization is selling itself as the "experts that know the truth".

    How are the westerners supposed to know that the version of the truth an organization is selling is a twisted one (i am not referring to iskcon necessarilary) when the westerners have not had any contact with the original teachings? Forget westerners most of the pseudo hindus even don't have any idea of the original teachings and just know some politically charged translations.

    By I do agree with your "buyers beware" message. That doesn't mean that the seller that sells the junk is right in doing so.
    satay

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by kimtadbrahma
    And what does brainwashing mean? To preach to someone and convince him of your views is not brainwashing any more than watching a movie and becoming caught up with its ethos.
    The problem that arises is when the institution says one thing and does another. In other words, when the institution presents a "picture perfect" view to those outside of it and encourages them to join. Once they join, then they realize that what is going on in the inside is not at all similar to what was presented to them before they joined. The only way the institution can keep the truth from getting out is through brainwashing in such case. This basically involves constantly trying to convince the person inside the organization that it is a great thing even when it is clearly not. I have seen this in ISKCON but it certainly happens in many other organizations. Just like a stage play, the audience can only see what is going on when the curtain is open. When the curtain is shut, who knows what is happening behind the scenes.

    In the case of a temple, the curtain will be open to "reveal" wonderful prasad, bhajans, pujas, a big clean nice looking temple room, beautiful deities, and an image of renounced monks who are seen as wise souls. However, "behind the scenes" some of the devotees may be excessively over-worked and the "holy men" may not be so holy. One may be skimming the donation money while the other might have a drug habit. Of course, if such duplicity is the case, group A has to keep group B from finding out and thus group A has to generally keep group B so busy that they don't have time to notice and then if they do notice, accuse them of fault-finding. I was only using examples here. Regardless, I have always felt that ISKCON does not present a consistent depiction of what it truly is. In every case that I have observed, what is advertised and what is reality are actually quite different things.

  9. #9
    Ramkish, I see what you are saying. However, ISKCON sells itself as the answer for spiritual life. They also sell themselves as experts on spiritual matters. If they are not going to uphold their end of the bargain and fall far short of what they advertise, then they are not a reputable organization. Likewise, people are not as dumb as we want to think. If a business turns out to sell bad products after the people believed they would be good, less and less people buy them and they may go out of business. ISKCON in the past 20 years has been quite dead compared to what it was in the 60s and 70s. What does this say?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Age
    50
    Posts
    117
    Rep Power
    119
    ISKCON as known within my own town in India, has earned a notorious name. People dont feel comfortable with even the name, it has a number of scandals behind it. I am told that many young lads are hijacked from their parents to serve in their ashram, and I know many a parent who has lost his son to this group. This is a serious thing that can be observed with all religions associated with a strict monotheism, because the brainwashing effects are severe. I am sure that Lord Krishna himself would not be pleased with so much hype and commercialization in his name. I have certainly come across many ISKCONites who have argued that mainstream Hinduism is corrupted while their religion alone is the true religion. I never seem to understand their logic of placing Krishna(based on a superficial reading of some scriptures) above Vishnu, while other Vaishnavas clearly percieve no such differences. I was even told by an ISKCONite that I would just get Vaikunta whereas Hare Krishnas go to some higher place called Goloka - I just had a good laugh. Whenever a religion promises you something better than others, you know their motives.

    This may not be the true motives behind the founding of this religion, however, there is no doubt that it has become degenerated. I think I agree with all points made in the OP. Simply converting the whole world into Krishna devotees wont help, it needs to be done in a manner without interfering with the lives of people, without hurting others, and only if they are deeply interested.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •