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Thread: An unanswerable question for both atheists and Abrahamics

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    An unanswerable question for both atheists and Abrahamics

    Greetings all:

    Atheists come in different shapes and sizes. Many of them are also believers in the Big Bang Theory. Here is a question that neither this class of atheists nor Abrahamics seem to have an answer for.

    If all necessary and sufficient [N & S] conditions for creation were always available, why didnt creation happen 5 minutes [or 10 minutes or 100 billion years] earlier than when it actually did?

    As for Hinduism, Samkhyan ontology [and subsequently Vedantic ontology which added Ishwara to Jivas and Prakriti] seems to provide a perfectly valid answer for this cosmogonic question.

    Creation happened when it happened because all N & S conditions were NOT always available. There was a previous cycle of creation prior to this one and the previous universe was "winding" down. The Samkhya school postulates that creation ensues when Prakriti [insentient subtle matter constituting the universe] which is composed of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas reach an equilibrium. After this equilibrium is reached, and not before, God, being the efficient cause of the universe, brings the Jivas [souls] close to Prakriti and the Karma of Jivas "stirs" Prakriti. Equilibrium is disturbed and the universe, in gross form, blossoms once again.

    Thoughts?

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    Re: An unanswerable question for both atheists and Abrahamics

    nice thought.bigbang creates one universe,what about billions of billions of universe not known to latest human knowledge..because space is infinite.

    What about regularly happening small bangs ?

    Atheist have very narrow thinking brain,so they can"t accomodate the vastness of universe and beyond.mere thought of the vastness should bow our head before god.
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

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    Re: An unanswerable question for both atheists and Abrahamics

    Few things follow:
    1. Physicists have stopped researching what caused the big bang. Yes? If not, why not?
    2. Please prove philosophically that an infinite regress of time is a contradiction.
    Last edited by satay; 02 February 2012 at 02:09 PM.

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    Re: An unanswerable question for both atheists and Abrahamics

    namaste,
    I am not a physicist, but I have always wondered how any big bang can create life. Curious. Possibly I should read up on it.
    satay

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    Re: An unanswerable question for both atheists and Abrahamics

    Few things follow from your quote:
    1. Physicists have stopped researching what caused the big bang. Yes? If not, why not?
    [/quote]
    1. If anything existed before time (<- joke), it can be anything, but certainly not time. Physicist of course know that in the Singularity before the big bang, there is no time, and in a local singularity, like a black hole, time moves backward, and will adjust their research accordingly.
    2. Please prove philosophically that an infinite regress of time is a contradiction.
What we call time is a phenomena that needs space and matter, movement and conciousness, that is in our case an expanding or contracting universe and an observer.

When any of these is missing time does not exist, wheter time is consider as moving forward of backward does not matter at all and is only dependent on wheter the motion is entropic or ectropic.

Conciousness or the observer and his subjective time will always follow the current objective time which in an expanding universe will move from the past to the future. Maximum entropy will eventually probably reverse the process in a cyclic model.

So as i wrote the question of past and future or any movement in time regarding the big bang is incorrect. More so since forward or backward movement of time is also of no ultimate import, since time, or the so called "arrow of time" is only moving under certain circumstances forward and under other circumstances backward.

In the absence of the conditions needed for the application of the second law of thermodynamics, related to the time arrow =(in any closed system, disorder (entropy) always increases with time) which is needed for our subjective concept of time, where has the "infinite Regression" gone you talk about?
Last edited by satay; 02 February 2012 at 02:23 PM.
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    Re: An unanswerable question for both atheists and Abrahamics

    An interesting documentary from discovery channel, through the wormhole, what happened before the beginning.

    http://science.discovery.com/tv/thro...the-beginning/

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    Re: An unanswerable question for both atheists and Abrahamics

    "Our universe could have either popped into existence or collided with another universe," theoretical physicist Michio Kaku told scienceline.org. "Big Bangs happen all the time."
    ^ This.

    I believe the "singularity" that created our universe was "pinched off" from another universe. I believe that perhaps black holes in our universe spawn other universes. This, I believe has gone on infinitely and will go on infinitely. I do not believe there was ever a beginning or cause of any of this; it is existence, which is Brahman.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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    Re: An unanswerable question for both atheists and Abrahamics

    Quote Originally Posted by TouchedbytheLord View Post
    ^ This.

    I believe the "singularity" that created our universe was "pinched off" from another universe. I believe that perhaps black holes in our universe spawn other universes. This, I believe has gone on infinitely and will go on infinitely. I do not believe there was ever a beginning or cause of any of this; it is existence, which is Brahman.
    That one seems to be most inline with puranic cosmology, so I thought it was interesting too.

    If you can get your hands on the two seasons of "through the wormhole," from discovery channel, I can highly recommend it.

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    Re: An unanswerable question for both atheists and Abrahamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    Philosophy is very important in chosing the proper scientific model to explain physics, relying on emperical data alone can be a cause to validate many absurd models.
    Huh? where did you get this form? There are have been debates whether apriori beliefs of scientists can hinder scientific investigation, but how is philosophical model is necessary for science? I didn't knew science assumes any unsubstantiated philosophical model except arithmetic. Science often raises philosophical questions or points to some inherent assumptions in the models science propose. Philosophy of science tries to understand and investigate them.

    @wundermonk: I am sorry I cannot argue with your linguistic logic, but I am also not interested in a medieval tarka game. Big-bang is adequately evidenced, unless disproved by counter evidence, all this argumentation (which you somehow fail to understand is invalid) is pointless in present day methods of debate.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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    Re: An unanswerable question for both atheists and Abrahamics

    I watch Through The Wormhole all the time... and over... and over... and over...
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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