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Thread: Ideas on Karma (and the various implications)

  1. #1
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    Ideas on Karma (and the various implications)

    Vannakam,

    It has been a while, but in discussing with people in a didactic manner, I learn more myself. While talking with a friend recently about Karma, I have come to a conclusion on somethings about it.

    First, there is good and bad karma, which is fairly well established.

    Second, and this is not mentioned much, but I believe there are two other types of karma, these are "earthly" and "universal" and these both affect you and your progression towards the ultimate goal (Moksha).

    The reason the two are differentiated is because culture is a subjective thing, and something bad in one culture can be good in another (or if nothing else, acceptable) so earthly equates to cultural karma, and this is how you act in the subset of culture to which you belong, and the appropriate tenants followed in that culture. This is far easier to understand and are defined by humans, thus it is called earthly

    Universal on the other hand, is akin to Dharma, it is universal in that it applies to the entire universe (or multiverse, which ever suits your fancy), and this Karma is incomprehensible to humans, because as it applies to the universe, we can't know it.

    And then, to greatly simplify it, this leads to your next rebirth, based on the difference of Good and bad earthly karma over teh difference of good and bad Universal karma, this leads to a prosperous or less than desirable life.

    But also of note, is the concept that I believe is key to reincarnation, and that is that you are not always born a human, nor are you always reincarnated on the planet earth, another thing to consider is the belief in linear time, and that reincarnation is most likely non linear, and not necessarily dimensionally confined either, so based on your Karma, you could end up in various other dimensions or other planets as other things in other times.

    Confusing, yes, but these are what I hold to be the most logically sound arguments (in my head, no way to know for sure). If you have any refutations or counter arguments, feel free to share

    Namaste

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    Re: Ideas on Karma (and the various implications)

    What about the constraints of attachment factoring in the reincarnation process?

    I was always told that sometimes reincarnation could take place in the same family because the jiva would get too attached to relatives.

    So if this constraint really takes place, it would be a little weird to take birth on several disconnected planes.

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    Re: Ideas on Karma (and the various implications)

    hari o
    ~~~~~~


    namasté Eric11235



    karma is karman - and it is rooted (√) is this sound kṛ - act , action , performance also 'the product or result'.
    In and of itself, as it stands alone it is an action. We come to know it as action and hence re-action. We then call this the ~law~ of karma.
    The point to be made - in and of itself, there is no darśana (exhibiting , teaching) ~philosopy~ within the word.


    So, what can we say about this? Some say there are 4 flavors:

    • nirvartya , when something (anything ) new is produced - from a thought to a basket, to a painting, to ...
    • vikārya - when change occurs - wood is reduced to ash, heat, flame. When one converts say a metal to a sword, a basket of fruit into a jam
    • prāpya , when any desired object is attained - a job, a car even the viewing of some movie that was desired to see
    • anīpsita , when an undesired object is abandoned; getting rid of something be it discards, friends that became foes, etc
    There is so-so much more to this ... but I wish to ask you , you mention the following:

    But also of note, is the concept that I believe is key to reincarnation, and that is that you are not always born a human,

    In this sentence who is you? You ( let me talk in 1st person , me, the objective view of 'I") or I am here as yajvan. I am here
    in this space for a very short time. If and when I come back, it is not yajvan that comes back, it is not 'me' that comes back.
    Yajvan is a temporary bundle of vibrations when assembled, has a certain ego ( ahaṃkāra - individuality) for this time, space
    and place , no? This ahaṃkāra is ~individual~ not universal as yet. It does not go from body-to-body.

    Note this word ahaṃkāra = ahaṃ+kāra 'I' + 'doer' or maker. And what is 'doing' ? Karma or karman, as aforementioned.

    This is the wisdom that we need to better understand. Who is it that goes from body to body ? Surely it is not yajvan. Then who ? And who then is having this experience? The closer we get to this answer the closer we better understand our selves.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Ideas on Karma (and the various implications)

    dear yajvan ji,

    you told the same ahamkar-ego doesn"t go from body to body.this is not rational.then who is getting fruit of karma?as long as the subtle and causal body is not destroyed by sadhna,the ego and samskar with karma-phal will be carried with these two bodies to take new physical body at each birth.

    but yes this ego or illusion will change each minutes.

    jayaguru

  5. #5

    Re: Ideas on Karma (and the various implications)

    Dear Friend,

    The term "Karma" has been very beautifully described by Sri Krishna in Bhagavad Gita...Let us summarize the
    meaning here...Please note that the summary will be quite lengthy as, just like any scientific reasoning needs complete understanding, this is also a science and in fact the most important one and thus, needs complete analysis....

    The summary can be indexed as follows

    - Lets define "who we are"
    - Lets understand the term "Karma",the respective "Kartha"[doer] and the categories it belongs to
    - Lets understand the factors which influence any "Karma"[Action] and the binding with its results
    - Lets understand how to free ourselves from this cycle driven by "Karma"


    Lets first of all understand what the phrase "a living entity" does "Karma", actually mean...
    - Lets define "who we are"

    Every living entity in this Universe is made up of the following
    - a subtle metaphysical entity called "jeevatma"
    - a materialistic physical entity called "deha"

    - Jeevatma:
    Parabramha[Ultimate Supreme Soul] as Purusha interacted with Pradhana, in order to create the Bramhanda or the entire Universe. The bramhanda is under Him, created by Him, and is just an atomic part of Him.
    Parabramha is the Paramatma..meaning the Supreme soul....He is the Soul who actually exists in reality....He is the source from which all the instances of life are actually created.
    Consider a simple example...There is a big candle which has a flame..there are many small lamps which are lit by the flame in the Big candle...
    The flame in one big candle is Parabramha and millions of lamps which are lit from the flame of the candle are the Aatmas present in each and every living being......The Aatma present in each and everyone of us is exactly an instance of Him....Aatma is nirguni, nirvikalpa....it cannot be defined, is not bound by anything materialistic and cannot be experienced by any senses....It cannot be seen, heard or felt..it can neither be harmed nor destroyed...it cannot be twisted according to personal desires nor can be altered...it cannot be redefined or changed...it does not have a birth or death...it neither has a beginning nor an end...it is beyond this materialistic "prakruthi", but can still exist inside it...its exactly like Him.....
    The Aatma or the soul is that entity which is present in each and every living being.....The Aatma is present in a good person as well as a bad person...Aatma is present in animals as well as birds...its in devatas and also the asuras....its in every human being irrespective of the man made religions one follows...Its mainly because of this Aatma, any entity in this materialistic world is said to have "life"....and this Aatma is an instance of Paramaathma...this Aatma which is there in each and everyone of us is a representation of Him...

    When we add the term Jeeva to this Aatma, the term Jeevaatma comes into existence...Jeeva is composed of the following
    - antarathma[which includes budhi[intellect], manas[mind], aham[identity]and chitta[consciousness]]
    - 5 senses [sense of touch, sight, smell, sound and taste]

    Inside this Bramhanda, all the above which are present in the Jeeva are always knit together with the Aatma and hence the term Jeevatma....The reason for this is that He as Aatma, is the witness of everything this Jeeva does[karma] and hence He as Aatma is always present with the Jeeva..also when the Jeeva tries to realise Him, it need not search anywhere as He is always with the Jeeva as Aatma....and realising this is called self realisation...

    - Deha or the materialistic Physical body

    The Jeevatma, in order to enter the Bramhanda[materialistic world], needs to be packaged in a materialistic entity, which can actually function only when it has the Jeevatma in it...such an entity is the physical body....when Jeevatma enters a physical body, the life for that "physical body" begins and it lasts till the Jeevatma leaves that body... also this materialistic entity[Deha] helps the Jeeva realise the functionality of its features....such a materialistic entity is known as the "Deha" or the physical body.....Physical body provides a platform or a framework, where the Jeevatma can reside in this prakruthi and experience this maya....and thus perform the "Karma" or activity or duty...

    - Lets understand the term "Karma" and the respective
    "Kartha" [doer] and the categories it belongs to

    Karma, just like any other definition in Dharma, can be defined based on the classification that depends on the basic "Gunas" or materialistic qualities...

    - Saatvika Karma and Kartha
    - Rajo Karma and Kartha
    - Taamasa Karma and Kartha


    - Saatvika Karma
    That action[karma] which is
    - regulated according to Dharma
    - done without any attachment towards the results produced
    - performed without love towards it or without hating it
    - done most importantly without hoping or desiring to enjoys the successful fruits
    - done without lamentation or enjoyement based on the type of result
    - done without frustration or satisfaction based on type of result
    such a karma is ofcourse saatvika karma

    - Saatvika Kartha
    One who never attaches oneself to any duty attracted by its results...One who does not worry about the type of result, thus eliminating anxiety and hope, which in turn eliminates the feeling of happiness or sadness...which in turn does not let materialistic satisfaction and frustration creep in..which ofcourse prevents one from lobha[greed], moha[attachment] and krodha[anger], anyone who performs his duty without ego or pride, with great determination and enthusiasm only about the duty and never about the result, and without wavering in success or failure, and offers everything to Him.. such a "Kartha" always does a "Saatvika Karma"

    - Result of Saatvika Karma
    By not attaching the self to the results and offering everything to Him, one is freed from the materialistic entangles..one is freed from the results of the duty..and this is known as being "muktha" from the materialistic world...and thus, when one is free from the results, one can easily attain "Moksha"....

    - Rajo Karma
    That action[karma] which is
    - performed by applying great amount of effort only seeking to gratify the desires,
    - performed to earn status, name and rank
    - done from a sense of false ego and pride
    such a karma is ofcourse in rajo guna
    If we think that "achieving materialistic success" is the main aim of life..we are only said to be in rajo guna...the term achieve is so wrongly understood...everyone right from the young days are taught to achieve some success in this materialistic world, else the person is considered useless...one is always motivated to do great things...get materialistic rewards...any action[Karma] performed for getting any materialistic rewards useless ...action done for attaining status, ranks and getting rewards matter to only those who are fully filled in the darkness of ahankara[ego]...the titles, merits...unwanted forced respect that some people demand just because they have attained some materialistic level is such a meaningless thing....

    - Rajo Kartha
    One who is attached to work mainly because of the fruits of such a work, desiring to enjoy those fruits, and who is always greedy, always envious, impure, and moved by joy and sorrow, such a "Kartha" always does "Rajo Karma"

    - Result of Rajo Karma
    One may wonder why should one not be attached to any work...the answer is very simple...consider any work that we "like" to do...by liking it we already are in illusion as everyone "likes" to do something only because the mind gets pleasure from the success related to that work...no one "likes" to do anything which results in failure......the next thing that comes with liking is the feel of attachment...and once the attachment increases..it silently nourishes the eagerness to experience the results...this eagerness has another parent..which is ego...one very easily starts to think that he is the actual doer and thus becomes eager to see the results and pat himself on his back for doing a masterpiece......thus from eagerness starts anxiety and hope...one starts to hope that the result should be favourable or successful...and one also fears and thus spends every minute anxiously awaiting for the result....and as described earlier...if the result is successful..it gives great satisfaction...which in turn waters ego in us...thus sowing the seeds of greed....if the result is a failure..it increases frustration..one starts to get angry..thus loosing ones mind...hence Sri Krishna says...anyone who is moved by joy or sorrow is always in rajo guna..and will always be in this cycle of life and death

    - Tamasa Karma
    That action[karma] which is
    - performed in illusion
    - done in disregard of Universal dharma
    - done in accordance with personal opinions[man made religions] and reasoning
    - done without concern for future bondage
    - performed, causes any sort of violence or distress to others
    such a karma is ofcourse in tamo guna

    - Tamasa Kartha
    One who is unqualified but still tries to do something, one who is disinclined towards the prescribed duty, one who is always deceptive and cheats others, one who is arrogant and who does not respect others, one who is always lazy and postpones the works due to the laziness, one who performs someone elses' duty, for which one is not qualified, one who does actions which causes even slightest violence to others...or the ones performed without even thinking about the consequences..out of ignorance from real knowledge.....such a "Kartha" always does "Tamasa Karma"

    - Result of Tamasa Karma
    Back to the same cycle but with lot of problems to deal with....many people wonder and scold their "luck" when some unexpected bad event occurs...many get frustrated when things do not go according to their "so-called plans"...what people forget is that they are simply experiencing the results[phala] of their previous "Karma"...its only due to the Tamasa Karma people suffer without a logical reason...many a times, we wonder how so many corrupt and bad people do Tamasa Karma and still get away with it..they make other suffer all thru their life and still get away....the reality is that they do not get away....when sometimes we wonder and regret the "poor" people who get mass affected due to natural calamities and suffer all thru their life..what we actually are missing to understand is that all those "people" who are affected in this life are only suffering[Tamasa Karma phala] because of their previous Tamasa Karma....no one gets away by doing Tamasa Karma as Dharma is never biased....

    - Lets understand the factors which influence any "Karma"[Action]
    Every single thing(action) performed by us every second right from the day we get life (even inside our mothers womb) are mainly dependent on these five factors...

    adhisthanam: the life or the aatma can exist only inside a body of the living entity..hence when we are talking about any action performed by any living entity, the place, we are referring to, is the body[Deha] of the person under discussion....
    example..i(the physical body) eat(action) food

    karta: this term needs to be understood correctly...the performer or the "source" which "performs/initiates/tells our body" to do any action...it is the mind+intellect which actually tells the body to perform any action...
    example: i (the physical body) eat(action) food (only because my mind + intellect performs/initiates/tells this action [tells me to eat])

    kaaranam: the "source/reason" behind the performance of an action...its only due to the various senses, interacting with the nature, our mind+intellect can interpret, we perform any action...
    example: i (the physical body) eat(action) food (only because my mind + intellect performs/initiates/tells this action [tells me to eat]) as my mind+intellect "sensed" hunger(reason) or "sensed" an interest/liking(reason) in food

    prithag-vidham vividhas ca prithak cesta: the many different kinds of endeavor(physical or intellectual force to accomplish the work), the various factors built in the nature...the various forces which influence our action...
    example: i (the physical body) eat(action) food (only because my mind + intellect performs/initiates/tells this action [tells me to eat]) because my mind+intellect "sensed" hunger(reason) or "sensed" an interest/liking(reason) in food, because "hunger" or interest/liking occurs due to (either not eating for a long time, the taste our tongue would love to cherish, energy being exhausted, etcetc...)

    daivam: Ofcourse most importantly the Paramathma, who is responsible for everything in his entire Universe.....
    example: i (the physical body) eat(action) food (only because my mind + intellect performs/initiates/tells this action [tells me to eat]) because my mind+intellect "sensed" hunger(reason) or "sensed" an interest/liking(reason) in food, (because "hunger" or interest/liking occurs due to either not eating for a long time or the taste our tongue would love to cherish or if energy is exhausted, etcetc...) only because He has made me take birth..He has provided something called food...He has given me mind and intellect...He has made the stomach get hungry...He has given the tongue and taste buds...He is the cause for this entire Universe....and He is the actual "Doer"
    These factors influence every living entity to do any kind of activity...

    ....when we talk about life,the good and the bad deeds, the results, the materialistic happiness and the sadness associated with the results, the compulsion of everyone to enjoy or suffer the results of our deeds...the way people enjoy the happiness..the way people suffer...when all of these things are put together, one is "bound" by the result oriented life...one is completely bound by everything infinitely...this is because as one cannot live without performing any activity, one always performs some or the other activity, but at the same time if one performs any activity, one is then automatically bound to the results of the activity...and as one is bound by the result, one has to take birth again to either enjoy or suffer the results of the previous activities....and while either enjoying or suffering, one again will be doing some activity, thus falling back again to cycle of maya....

    - Lets understand how to free ourselves from this cycle driven by "Karma"

    Now the question arises as to how should one perform the action or Karma...the answer again is very simple...

    - One must without any expectation, without attachment, without worrying about the result, without ego, without causing trouble to others, put complete effort and perform one's prescribed duty, as an offering to Him....

    Hence the karta or the doer needs to perform every action or duty detached from it...only as an offering to Him...because its He who is inside everyone of us who has given us this life...just because our senses, mind, intellect and ahankara comes in contact with this temporary physical body, our mind starts to think that, its this body, that it must use to identify itself....ahankara is not interpreted as "identity", instead it becomes wrongly known as "Personality"....the ahankara gets highest priority and mind uses this ahankara to perform every act favourable to this mind and senses...intellect actually is submerged and so is the knowledge regarding the Aatma and reality,which actually is the superior most.....thus for the sake of pleasing only the senses, the mind acts as a slave to them...

    Intellect must made the king of this body and with knowledge as the prime minister...mind as a loyal servent to the Intellect...and senses only as those servants used only to perform the prescribed duties..only then Aatma in us can be recognised as the Parabhramha Himself...

    Is there a way to come out this cycle?
    Yes ofcourse....
    When the mind and the senses are controlled by the intellect, according to the dharma, when the senses are not attracted to the materialistic things which are not required, when the aham is present only as a "physical identity", when the chitta is encapsulated in bhakthi....when the intellect contains only real knowledge in it...at such a point of time the Jeeva and Deha are actually in a state similar to the Aatma or the Paramatma....and this point is actually known as realisation of the self....this is the point when the Jeeva and Deha associate themselves with the Parabramha..it is that beautiful state where in one is actually in the actual state of reality...and staying in this state when one performs the prescribed duty[Karma] immersed in His thoughts, one is already doing what Paramathma does in each and every Avatar of His...each and every Avatar is an example of how one can be a "stitha pragna"...and still perform duty[Karma]....

    And when one performs the duty in such a state... one is already freed from the results of the duty as one becomes only the physical instrument and thus not the doer, and such a person, even though does the prescribed duty[Karma], will not be the doer[Karta] and hence, allowing the Paramatma to be the bhoktha or the enjoyer.... By not being the enjoyer, the person becomes free from the results of the duties[Karma-phala]....and when one is not a bhokta, and when one completes the prescribed life time performing the prescribed duty, staying in this state, the Jeeva and Aatma, now being similar to each other will merge back into the Paramatma as all the three are "not different at this point"...the materialistic deha is left in this materialistic prakruthi as its "materialistic" and does not exist beyond the Bramhanda....as only The Paramatma exists beyond everything...

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    Re: Ideas on Karma (and the various implications)

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    In this sentence who is you? You ( let me talk in 1st person , me, the objective view of 'I") or I am here as yajvan. I am here
    in this space for a very short time. If and when I come back, it is not yajvan that comes back, it is not 'me' that comes back.
    Yajvan is a temporary bundle of vibrations when assembled, has a certain ego ( ahaṃkāra - individuality) for this time, space
    and place , no? This ahaṃkāra is ~individual~ not universal as yet. It does not go from body-to-body.
    Now why would I mention such a thing? The praśna upaniṣad ( chapter 2, 7th śloka) informs us of the following:

    O' prāṇa as prajāpati you move within the wombs; you yourself are born repeatedly. These creatures in each of whom you dwell along
    with the prāṇas brings offerings to you.


    Who then is born again and again? Who is this you?

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #7

    Re: Ideas on Karma (and the various implications)

    All That were definitions of karma under the heading gyan .We are happy that year 2010 passed as bhakti year .
    Now we shall try to celeberate the year 2011 as Bhed bhakti year . Goswamiji says about bhedbhakti....
    tate uma mochchha nahi payo, dasaratha bheda bhagati mana layo....lankakand
    Uma, (continues Lord
    siva,) Dasaratha did not attain final beatitude for this simple reason that he set his heart
    on Devotion while maintaining his separate identity.
    rakapati khorasa uahin taragana samudai,
    sakala girinha dava laia binu rabi rati na jai .
    Even though
    the moon rose complete in all her sixteen digits with the entire starry host, and even if all the
    mountains were set on fire, night would not yield except to the sun.
    aisehi hari binu bhajana khagesa, mitai na jivana kera kalesa .
    hari sevakahi na byapa avidya, prabhu prerita byapai tehi vidya.
    tate nasa na hoi dasa kara, bheda bhagati barhai bihangabara....uttarkand
    In like manner, O lord of the feathered race mortals cannot be rid of their suffering
    without adoring Hari. Avidya (Nescience) has no power over a servant of Hari; it is
    Vidya (knowledge of Brahman in Its relative aspect) that holds away over him as directed by
    the Lord. That is why a servant of the Lord never falls; on the other hand, O best of birds,
    his devotion to the Lord as apart from himself grows.
    Come to gita.....
    Yatah pravrittirbhootaanaam yena sarvamidam tatam;
    Swakarmanaa tamabhyarchya siddhim vindati maanavah.
    He from whom all the beings have evolved and by whom all this is pervaded,
    worshipping Him with his own duty, man attains perfection.
    Man attains perfection by worshipping the Lord through the
    performance of his own duty, that is, he becomes qualified for the dawn of Self-knowledge.

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