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Thread: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

  1. #11
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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Vannakkam,

    One only needs common sense to understand alcohol. You don't really need to go to the scriptures at all. Just go to a bar and observe the people. Read the newspaper for traffic fatalities. It is almost always accompanied by "Police say alcohol was probably involved." Look at health statistics, AA, and the appearance of rehab clinics, and marital or family disputes.

    So from this common sense comes "drink responsibly" and one way to do that is to abstain entirely. I personally abstain because alcohol is like a headache pill for me. But I have no problem with someone having a couple of pops to socialise.

    Within ritual, that is probably another matter altogether. I'm not familiar with tantric sects who imbibe as part of the sacred process.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Madhuri View Post
    I just want to point out that it was Brahmins who supposedly did not eat any meat but the other castes certainly did, certainly do now (according to stories like the Mahabharata).
    See it is a big myth that brahmins are vegetarians and non-brahmins are not, actually it is not caste but sect which decides who are vegetarians and who are not, except for some vaishyas who are mostly vegetarians, irrespective of region and sect.

    I have met many people and seen many cultures of india, there are many sub-castes of brahmins who are hardcore Non-vegetarians, like Maithli brahmans, nepali brahmans, kashmiri brahmans, himachali brahmans, Gaud saraswat brahmans, bengali brahmans etc. Most of these sub-castes are traditional meat eaters, not just of today. Sachin tendulkar, lata mangeshkar, sunil gavaskar all fit in gaud saraswat category and they all are non-vegy.On the same maadwaris, agarwals, are 100% vegetarians. They come in vaishya category. Also there are many sub-castes of brahmins who are pure vegetarians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madhuri View Post

    Also, you said alcohol is fit for demons. Well, it might be bad for humans but I'm pretty sure the demigods enjoyed getting intoxicated now and then!
    There is nothing called demi-god in hinduism, please stop abusing our devtas by taking terms from iskcon. Second devtas, including VISNU himself drank soma, which was not alcohol, but energy drink, which was required to give them strength in fights against asuras (demons).

    Also Alcohol is definitely bad, if you see it on average, alcohol can bring no good, but it can bring many bads,alcohol can lead to wife-beating, making one child abuser, in developing cancer, My mom and dad are doctor, they say 50% of their patients acquire
    problems from alcohol only. so alcohol is detrimental to society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madhuri View Post
    I disagree that pre-marital sex is immoral/unethical. I think that is largely contextual. In many cases I would agree but I think there are situations when it is neither.
    I am not saying, pre-martial sex with consent is crime, but it is definitely not moral, nor ethical, from Hindu dharms perspective. I wouldn't advice it to anyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by sambya View Post
    as an ofshoot to this main discussion , i have heard about go-medha yajna much like the famous ashwa-medha .

    does anyone here knows or has the exact scriptural texts of that sacrifice ? i want to know what was that all about ?!!!

    Hello sambya ji,


    well, I am not a scholar but i will like to point out, a sanskrit word doesn't necessarily carries one meaning, for example if we go by literal translations, then some vedic verses can give illogical meanings.


    A respected women very well versed in vedas pointed out fallacies in literal translations of following vedic verses in one website. I am quoting from there



    Taittiriyaranyaka 9-10-6
    ahamannamahamannamahamannam
    ahamannamannamadantamaadmi )



    If we take literal meaning of this verse, it says, ‘aham annam & aham admi’, means i am food and I am the eater, now how can one eat himself??? so if we take literal meaning we can also say vedas preach canabalism.






    Taittiriyaranyaka 10-1-15

    aardram jvalati jyotirahamasmi |
    jyotirjvalati brahmaahamasmi |
    yo'hamasmi brahmaahamasmi |
    ahamasmi brahmaahamasmi |
    ahamevaaham maam juhomi svaahaa |



    “ahameva aham maam juhomi svaaha! This means I offer myself as an oblation to fire! , this will now mean vedas peaches us to do suicide ???


    see, the meaning has to be taken in right context,





    Coming to the extensively quoted words pointing to beef in the Vedas namely ukshna and vhrsh. If we read the yajurveda, it is not difficult to understand that these words are used to denote butter/ghee and rice. Obviously the bull and cow are used to denote rice grain and milk products because of their utility in agriculture & dairy farm. Eg:

    Dhenvai vaa etad reto yad aajyam anaduhas tandulaa mithunaad evaasmai chakshuh prajanayati

    The butter is the seed of the cow, the rice grain of the ox; verily from the pair he produces for him sight. The oblation is (made) in ghee, ghee is brilliance, sight is brilliance; verily by brilliance he wins for him brilliance and sight Y.V. 2.2.9.4

    Now coming to the relevant verse of brihadaranyaka where ‘mamsoudanam’ ‘proukshena’ and ‘vaarshabena’ are interpreted to mean
    beef one should understand that a single word in Sanskrit has so many meanings. So also maamsa, uksha and vrsha.




    “atha ya ichhedduhitaa me pandito vigeeta: samitimgama: susrushitaam vaacam bhaashitaa jaayeta sarvaanvedaananubruveeta sarvamaayuriyaaditi maamsoudanam paacayitva sarpishmantamashneeyaataameeshvarou janayita vaa proukshena vaarshabhena vaa”

    it may be seen that the context here is obtaining a son for which certain inherent doshas of the body are to be removed. Thus as I said earlier, uksha should be interpreted to mean ghee and vrsha interpreted to mean rishabhaka, a medicinal herb also known by the name vrsha (Microstylis muscifera). Sarpis which is clarified butter, is extensively used in ayurveda for treatment of related issues. Just as an eg, I’d like to
    quote an ayurvedic preparation called ‘vrsha ghrtam’ here

    samoola patra shaakhasya shatam krtvaa vrshasya tu
    jaladrone vipaktavyam ashtabhaagaavasheshitam
    garbhena vrsha pushpaanam aadhakam sarpisha: pacet
    tatsiddham paayayet yuktya madhupaada samanvitam


    if we start interpreting vrsha here to mean ox, then god save the patient!



    Yaani bhadraani beejaani rishabhaa janayanti ca
    Taistvam putram vindasva saa prasoordhenukaa bhava


    By the use of the auspicious seeds yielded by the herbs named Rishabhaka, do thou, O woman, obtain thyself a son: be thou a fruitful mother-cow! (Atharva.3.23.4)

    Here too the westerners have interpreted vrishabha to mean a steer/bull but the clue lies in the 6th hymn there under:

    Yaasaam dyaushpita prthvee maataa samudro moolam veerudham babhoova Taastvaa putravidyaaya daivee: praavantvoshadhaya:

    May those celestial herbs whose sire was Heaven, the Earth their mother, and their root the ocean. May those celestial healing Plants assist thee to obtain a son. AV 3.23.6
    @sambya ji,

    I dont think there was anything like bali in any vedic sacrifices, there are lots and lots of verses from vedas which tells about sacredness of cows.
    Last edited by isavasya; 18 June 2010 at 05:24 PM.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post
    I have mate many people and seen many cultures of india, there are many sub-castes of brahmins who are hardcore Non-vegetarians, like Maithli brahmans, nepali brahmans, kashmiri brahmans, himachali brahmans, Gaud saraswat brahmans, bengali brahmans etc. Most of these sub-castes are traditional meat eaters, not just of today. Sachin tendulkar, lata mangeshkar, sunil gavaskar all fit in gaud saraswat category and they all are non-vegy.
    speaking of gauda saraswat i couldnt stop myself from describing how this particular branch grew out . it is a rather interesting story .

    in the early vedic period the aryan settlements were mostly around saraswati river and ganga . eventually saraswati dried up , which is now proven through satteliite imagery which shows dried up river bed--the present remmnants of which are called ghaghara hakra river . the brahmins who settled along saraswati were called saraswat brahmins . after the extinction of the river then moved further east untill a group arrived at what is now bengal . that land was historically called gauda-desha ( yes , gaudiya vaishnavs derive their name from that gauda too) . so the brahmins began to be hailed as gauda saraswat brahmins . this group later spread to other parts of india including maharastra !


    Hello sambya ji,


    well, I am not a scholar but i will like to point out, a sanskrit word doesn't necessarily carries one meaning, for example if we go by literal translations, then some vedic verses can give illogical meanings.


    A respected women very well versed in vedas pointed out fallacies in literal translations of vedic verses following in one website. I am quoting from there



    @sambya ji,

    I dont think there was anything like bali in any vedic sacrifices, there are lots and lots of verses from vedas which tells about sacredness of cows.
    about the translations i totally agre with you . western translations are generally inaccurate . other translations often have sectarian leanings .

    as eastern mind ji points out , any translation originating in someones mind must have a shade of that persons own thought . the best way is to check the main scriptures yourselves . but then again vedic sanskrit is completely different from what we find in gita and puranas . its tougher !

    about sacrifices i cannot be sure yet . most interpretations and stories do point to a final act of sacrifice . but as i have not seen the main texts myself i cannot comment . but even if sacrifices were there it shouldnt bother me . hinduism has a way for evryone in its fold .......even for the demoniac . thats the very essence of hinduism . an intellectual , a skeptic , an emotional person , an ascetic , a householder , a renunciate or even a mleccha can all find a way in this dharma . thats what makes hinduims so special .

    personally i know certain medieval era smritis which does advocate balidaan to devi for navaratri , specially for shavara jati (a tribal populace) .

    but i do agree one one point , which i have already mentioned before . for spiritual aspirants there can be no better and easier way than ahimsa !!
    na kAshthe vidyate devo na shilAyam kadAchana
    bhAve hi vidyate devas-tasmAd-bhAvam samAcharet

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Madhuri View Post
    Well, it might be bad for humans but I'm pretty sure the demigods enjoyed getting intoxicated now and then!
    you would be surprised to know the balarama as sankarsana , the indentical expansion of krishna-- THE GOD , was addicted to liqour . shastras describe him as one of white complexion , wearing blue robes , with an earring on one ear and red eyed due to drinking !!

    now i cannot say what the drink was , but it was certainly not water or sugarcane juice !!!!
    na kAshthe vidyate devo na shilAyam kadAchana
    bhAve hi vidyate devas-tasmAd-bhAvam samAcharet

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    sambya ji,

    yes I know the story of gauda saraswat, there are few in Bihar too, but they only call themselves saraswat now. By the way, today gaud saraswat are thickly populated in coastal karnatka and maharashtra only.

    I can give few reasons, why some castes became non-vegeterains. Like in mithla region of bihar, flood comes every year, so there is abundance of fish, but drought of cereals, so with time, mithla people became forced by nature to live on fish. Also there is abundance of fish in costal regions of karnatka (but proper irrigation soil may be lacking), that's why gaud saraswat might have turned non-vegy in those areas. Also yes these people originated from region around saraswati river.


    Yes, some translation may be sectarian and few tantrik texts or purans may contain hints of meat eating like, jeernam jeernam vatapi jeernam by agastya rishi, but i don't see anything lke bali in vedic sacrifises, I don't say some sects give 100% correct vedic translations, but logically I don't see any sacrifices, how ever many texts asks us to refrain from any himsa to animals.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by sambya View Post
    you would be surprised to know the balarama as sankarsana , the indentical expansion of krishna-- THE GOD , was addicted to liqour . shastras describe him as one of white complexion , wearing blue robes , with an earring on one ear and red eyed due to drinking !!

    now i cannot say what the drink was , but it was certainly not water or sugarcane juice !!!!
    I love this post<3

    It just shows how difficult it is to avoid such things.

    The other day my children were watching a show called "Monsters Inside Me."

    This show has all sorts of worms and nasty stuff that lives in beef, fish, pork. The one was a fish worm that got into a woman and it was horrible.

    It makes all the more sense why these things were forbidden by ancient religions.

    Muslims, Jews...pork...totally makes sense. Even in these times, pork can cause worms that kill you.

    It gives a girl a serious respect for the wisdom of our ancient ones.

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    isavasya . hmm the things are complex . but at the end we all love hinduism . thats what counts the most .



    naya , hahahahahahaha . thanks for appreciating . lets see what our devotee of 'THE GOD' has to say !!
    na kAshthe vidyate devo na shilAyam kadAchana
    bhAve hi vidyate devas-tasmAd-bhAvam samAcharet

  8. #18

    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Thanks for all the help everyone. While I got some answers from this, this honestly left me more confused than before due to many people having so many different opinions. But considering it's Hinduism we're talking about, I probably should have expected this .

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjhtyR042OM

    I swear to COW!

    (Yes, I am quite aware that the above video doesn't really portray the correct views of Hindus in relation to either cows or beef. I just thought it would be funny to post here...)

    And interestingly enough, I remember seeing the actor who plays Raj in an interview somewhere (I tried to find it online, but couldn't...) where he said that he is a Hindu...but eats hamburgers! I can't remember exactly what he said, but if I remember correctly, he seemed to imply that many Hindus in America eat beef! It was very strange.

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    One only needs common sense to understand alcohol. You don't really need to go to the scriptures at all. Just go to a bar and observe the people. Read the newspaper for traffic fatalities. It is almost always accompanied by "Police say alcohol was probably involved." Look at health statistics, AA, and the appearance of rehab clinics, and marital or family disputes.
    I think this is getting into discussions of drunkenness instead of alcohol. The things you mention, Eastern Mind, are caused by excessive consumption of alcohol. I live in a country that is becoming excessively worried about the alcohol consumption, especially by the youth of the country and has proposed raising the tax on alcohol.

    Having one or two drinks with friends at a get-together won't generally do any harm. It's excessive drinking that causes the majority of the problems related to alcohol, not casual drinking.

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