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Thread: What does the Supreme really want?

  1. #21

    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste,

    If Supreme does want something, He/She/It is not really Supreme.

    OM
    -A good example of materially conditioned logic, and the mistaken conclusion it produces.

    Trying to understand the nature of the Absolute by means of mundane reasoning is going to fail. One of the reasons the Absolute is called Acintya - incomprihensible, is that He is not understood by mundane logic. The nature of the Absolute is going to be understood when it is revealed by the Absolute Himself - through the medium of His representative, the spiritual master. Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita, verse 4.34

    tad viddhi pranipatena
    pariprasnena sevaya
    upadeksyanti te jnanam
    jnaninas tattva-darsinah


    Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.



    So one has to learn from a bona-fide spiritual master, who again has learned from a bona-fide spiritual master, and so on. Lord Krishna refers to this system of disiplic succession - guru-parampara, in verses 4.1-2.


    sri-bhagavan uvaca
    imam vivasvate yogam
    proktavan aham avyayam
    vivasvan manave praha
    manur iksvakave 'bravit


    The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvan, and Vivasvan instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Iksvaku.


    evam parampara-praptam
    imam rajarsayo viduh
    sa kaleneha mahata
    yogo nastah parantapa


    This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost.


    Sri Krishna - the Supreme Personality og Godhead, is the adi-guru - the original spiritual master, and perfect knowledge of that which is beyond our senses/experience has to come from Him. That is the system of receiving perfect, flawless knowledge. That is the vedic process of attaining knowledge of the Absolute Truth.

    Mental speculation may be fun, but it is not going to yield the desired fruit of knowing the Supreme. Therefore Lord Krishna says in verse 7.19
    bahunam janmanam ante
    jnanavan mam prapadyate
    vasudevah sarvam iti
    sa mahatma su-durlabhah


    After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.


    He further offers(verse 18.55):
    bhaktya mam abhijanati
    yavan yas casmi tattvatah
    tato mam tattvato jnatva
    visate tad-anantaram


    One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.

    Inthe previous verse he explains:
    brahma-bhutah prasannatma
    na socati na kanksati
    samah sarvesu bhutesu
    mad-bhaktim labhate param


    One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me.
    So bhakti is attained after one is in the liberated stage!
    The Absolute reveals Himself only to those who have surrendered at His Lotus Feet, and serves Him with devotion. Surrender, love and devotion is the price.

    Lord Brahma prays in the Brahma-samhita (verse 5.38):

    “I worship Govinda, the original Supreme Person, Krishna Himself. He is Shyamasundara, the Beautiful One with a complexion the color of a dark stormy cloud. He is the personification of inconceivable attributes. Indeed, the saints always see Him in their hearts, for they have applied the collirium of pure love on their eyes.”

    In Sri Isopanishad (where we find the verse om purnam adah purnam idam...) the devotee prays:

    hiranmayena patrena
    satyasyapihitam mukham
    tat tvam pushann apavrinu
    satya-dharmaya drishtaye
    SYNONYMS
    hiranmayena -- by a golden effulgence; patrena -- by a dazzling covering; satyasya -- of the Supreme Truth; apihitam -- covered; mukham -- the face; tat -- that covering; tvam -- Yourself; pushan -- O sustainer; apavrinu -- kindly remove; satya -- pure; dharmaya -- unto the devotee; drishtaye -- for exhibiting.
    TRANSLATION
    O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee.


    And indeed, The Lord reveals Himself to the pure devotee, as a reciprocation of his/her love, as the Lord also loves him/her and wants to engage that jiva in His eternal, blissful lilas beyond the material covering, and beyond the brahmajyoti effulgence.


    Hare Krishna!










  2. #22
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by Marga mana das View Post
    Lord also loves him/her and wants to engage that jiva in His eternal, blissful lilas beyond the material covering, and beyond the brahmajyoti effulgence.
    Please quote from Bhagwad Gita where God says this.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #23
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Pranam


    Quote Originally Posted by Marga mana das View Post
    -A good example of materially conditioned logic, and the mistaken conclusion it produces.
    ----
    So one has to learn from a bona-fide spiritual master, who again has learned from a bona-fide spiritual master, and so on. Lord Krishna refers to this system of disiplic succession - guru-parampara, in verses

    Perhaps you be kind enough to let us know who is bona-fide spiritual master?

    further is lord Krishna, in this verse taking about institutionalised Parampara! Where like in a corporate institute, Gurus are appointed as in voted in!

    I am sorry to bring this in because parampara is important for me but then I always understood it to be Kula dharma based.

    One may ask what is this got to do with what the supreme wants us to do, then again Lord Krishna does say in BG 4.15

    Evem jnatva krtam karma
    purvair api mumuksubhih
    kuru karmaiva tasmat tvam
    purvaih purvataram krtam

    The ancient seekers of liberation also performed their duties with this understanding. Therefore, you should do your duty as the ancients did. (4.15)

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  4. #24
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    Let me ask your opinion here. How do you see this Supreme ?
    'Supreme Being' -or- 'A Supreme Being'

    ( others as usual are always welcomed to offer their point of view and knowledge )

    Let me offer this view for one's kind consideration....

    If a person says ( or it is written) A Supreme Being, it infers there may be others also. It is because this 'a' is used¹ in the singular noun
    format. It suggests that the person is pointing to 'a' ( singular ) Supreme Being, and that by inference there could be another.

    If a person says ( or it is written) The Supreme Being, it is used to suggest uniqueness for emphasis before titles and names. Hence
    one can even say the exclusivity of the title.

    From my point of view, both A and The cases suggest an entity or entities albeit however graceful, magnificent, Supreme, and infinite they may be, are being defined.

    Now take the term Supreme Being. There is no A or The . There is no localization, no boundary. It is not a collection of Supreme Beings denoted by the letter 'a' where there can be one or more, nor a single Supreme Being denoted by the term 'the'.

    Even thinking about Supreme Being without using the 'a' or 'the' changes one's comprehension (at least for me). It is the notion that only Being exists. It is final and unsurpassable (anuttara¹). It is no longer localizing some-THING or some-ONE to be this Being.

    Yet because we are humans and live in a world of name and form, this 'a' and 'the' comes to be applied when we wish to comprehend the world around us. Hence this easily gets extended to 'That'. Even our great seers knew that this Supreme was unmentionable, uccāra-rahitam vastu - Reality devoid ( indescribable ) of utterance.


    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • 'a' is considered an indefinite article in English grammar.
    • 'the' is a definite article in English grammar.
    • anuttara - chief, principle; unsurpassable.
    Last edited by yajvan; 04 September 2014 at 03:15 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Since this question was posted in the Vaishnava folder, was just listening to a discourse on Pasurams (4000-divya-prabandha) sung by 'Thirumangai Azhwar'. He says to Lord of Thiruvaali (Lord Vishnu), "Hey Lord! It is not that only me wants to unite with you... It is also YOU who wants the same with me!... For many, many lifetimes now... Therefore, owing to this reason, grant me moksha now!". (Interested people can hear the same at http://acharya.org/mm/a/u/vk/mk.html -- mp2 File 2 around 31 min). This pasuram where he states the same begins as ‘thooviriya malaruzhakki’ (Periya Thirumozhi 3-6).

    The above clearly shows the Lord really wants us to unite with him in moksha.

    The Lord created the entire Universe, and gave us the body with an intellect and indriyas to do service to him. He offered us Vedas, Vedangas, Puranas, Ithihasas, Agamas, Niyamas, and Sanathana Dharma itself, because it is his 'desire' that mankind benefits from it and reaches him ultimately.

    Thanks.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  6. #26
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by Marga mana das View Post
    -
    Mental speculation may be fun, but it is not going to yield the desired fruit of knowing the Supreme. Therefore Lord Krishna says in verse 7.19
    bahunam janmanam ante

    jnanavan mam prapadyate


    vasudevah sarvam iti

    sa mahatma su-durlabhah


    After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

    Please note the purpose of this forum is to offer different views on the subjects we discuss. The offer below falls into this category. It is not offered to upset any one, but here for your consideration.

    If we look to this śloka we can look at this in a slightly different manner. This says :
    • ante ( anta) = end, limit, term
    • bahūnāṁ ( bahu ) = much , many , frequent , abundant
    • janmanām (janma) = births
    This then suggests , after ( the end) of many births

    Now to offer this slightly different view it takes another śloka to assist us - look to chapter 6 , 45th śloka , as it says:
    the yogi who strives with zeal or prayatnāt - (continued exertion or endeavor, focus) purified of all sin and perfected though many births or anekajanma, reaches the highest (parāṁ) destination (gatim¹).

    Each of the 18 chapters of the bhāgavad gītā takes on a theme... if one reads each adhyāya (chapter) we will sense this:
    • The 6th chapter is considered abhyāsa yoga; note abhyāsa means permanent exercise , discipline, practice, tapas, a way of doing consistently.Various teachers may call it by other names and that is fine, I am not contentious about this matter.
    • The 7th chapter is paramahamsa vijñāna yoga – the knowledge (vijñāna) of the highest or parama+ haṁsa ; this paramahaṁsa is the name given to that being/person that has achieved ( recognized) the highest or anuttara or parama within him/her self.
    So now the point of view to be offered. Within these words of chapter 6 the notion of practice or abhyāsa suggests what I can be doing now to unfold and recognize this Being / Fullness /Wholeness that is me to begin with. Why then do I need to physically die? I need ‘many births’. This is the notion of practice.
    With one’s practice we dip into the purity of consciousness and come out again ( from the transcendent to the relative field of life) and this is considered a birth, starting anew.
    It is done so many times ( constant practice) that it becomes stabilized in one’s behavior, an awakening ( birth) of new consciousness.
    This notion of ‘birth’ within the verbiage of yoga , in this case that of patañjali’s yogadarśana regarding samādhi is not unusual at all.

    Enter chapter 7. The 19th śloka can be viewed in two ways. One is a continuation of chapter 6 and the knowledge therein; or the view that though many births-and-deaths a person may unfold this paramahamsa also. Yet something still needs to be done (abhyāsa )

    It is something to ponder.

    iti śivaṁ

    1. gatim = gati = place of issue , origin ; condition , situation , proportion , mode of existence

    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #27

    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste,



    Please quote from Bhagwad Gita where God says this.

    OM
    Namaste.

    The whole scentence read: And indeed, The Lord reveals Himself to the pure devotee, as a reciprocation of his/her love, as the Lord also loves him/her and wants to engage that jiva in His eternal, blissful lilas beyond the material covering, and beyond the brahmajyoti effulgence.

    I did not claim that it is solely from the Bhagavad-gita - I'll come back to that.

    In verse 18.55 the Lord says that one can know Him through bhakti. And as I know my brother, I can give detailed information about him, so the pure devotees can give us detailed knowledge about the Supreme - because they know Him. And they confirm : Yes - the Supreme (Bhagavan) has desires, He is compassionate and loving, and he wants our association.

    Every word in the Bhagavad-gita is a manifestation of His desire. He didn't have to speak the gita - He did so because He wanted to. Indeed, His very appearance in this material world is a manifestation of His own sweet will! Nothing forces Him to come, but He does so nevertheless.
    In verse 4.8 He explains some of the reasons why He appears, yuga after yuga.

    paritranaya sadhunam
    vinasaya ca duskrtam
    dharma-samsthapanarthaya
    sambhavami yuge yuge

    He wants to deliver the pious, He wants to annihilate the miscreants, and He wants to reestablish the principles of religion.
    In verse 18.65 He wants us to think of Him, He wants us to become His devotee, He wants us to worship Him and offer our homages to Him. ( And the verse concludes: Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.
    In the next verse He wants us to abandon all varieties of religion and surrender unto Him.
    All the lilas He manifests in His different Avataras are all manifestations of His desires. He enjoys these dramas a lot! He enjoys having fun with His friends, He enjoys a good fight with the demons, etc. The Lord is anandamaya 'bhyasat - everything is blissful to Him.


    Lord Krishna does not give detailed knowledge in the gita about the Vaikuntha realm that is manifested beyond matter and beyond the brahmajyoti, and which is His eternal abode, and to which He wants us to come and enjoy with Him. There are however lots of detailed information in other scriptures, like in Srimad Bhagavata purana, canto 3, 15th chapter, and in Brahma-samhita, chapter 5. There are too many verses to be quoted here, but please read and learn on:

    http://www.stephen-knapp.com/descrip...tual_world.htm .


    Wish you all well,
    Hare Krishna.








  8. #28

    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Namaste,

    For me I believe that the Supreme does not really WANT anything as the Lord already has everything that is needed. The Lord helps us ( assuming that we help ourselves too ) .


    Hari Om.

    Dhanya

  9. #29
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Namaste Marga,

    See, I don't have much faith in PurANas because to me they don't speak coherently and therefore appear to me interpolated for some interested people. That is why I asked you to quote from Bhagwad Gita.

    You have quoted a verse from Bhagwad Gita which doesn't prove that God desires anything. You have said,

    Every word in the Bhagavad-gita is a manifestation of His desire. He didn't have to speak the gita - He did so because He wanted to. Indeed, His very appearance in this material world is a manifestation of His own sweet will! Nothing forces Him to come, but He does so nevertheless.
    Is it because he wants to fulfill "his desires" ? How do you conclude that ??

    In verse 4.8 He explains some of the reasons why He appears, yuga after yuga.

    paritranaya sadhunam
    vinasaya ca duskrtam
    dharma-samsthapanarthaya
    sambhavami yuge yuge
    Yes, that is the reason for his appearing again and again. But it is not due to his desires but to fulfill the desires of his devotees. Let's see where God makes it clear that he acts without any desires :

    "Karmas don't bind me as I have no desires for the fruits of actions" BG 4.14

    He again clarifies that all actions, doership or fruits of actions are not "created" by him. BG 5.14

    If he had any desires, being omnipotent that would have got immediately fulfilled.

    God is omnipotent and also omniscient and therefore, if still has some desires left, He omnipotence and also omniscience is violated. Therefore, if "Supreme" has any desire left, He is not really the Supreme.

    God acts because of Law of the Prakriti in action ... He binds himself to the Laws of Prakriti and acts according to the Laws.

    ********************

    This is Vaishnava section of the forum and therefore, Saguna Brahman can be considered as the Supreme. However, Upanishads don't accept this and place Nirguna Brahman to be the Ultimate. In Bhagwad Gita, Lord Krishna identifies Himself both as Saguna Brahman i.e. Ishvara and Nirguna Brahman. Ishvara is Brahman with" MAyA in action and Nirguna Brahman is where MAyA is at rest within Brahman.

    However, even after this if you want to believe that God has desires, I have no issues. I bow out of this thread with these words.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #30

    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Namaste Devotee,

    You argue that He comes for the benefit of His devotees, and yes, that is certainly part of the cause.

    But why did He - The Supreme Brahman, expand into so many living entities and manifested this material world in the first place?

    Because He had to? - or because He wanted to.

    Please answer this question.

    Hare Krishna.

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