Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23

Thread: Obey your elders etc.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    September 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Age
    70
    Posts
    7,191
    Rep Power
    5038

    Obey your elders etc.

    Vannakkam all: Prostrations to Lord Vinayaka!

    I was reflecting on the discussion about books that was had the other day. It lead me to the more generalised topic of how some of the old adages have lost some their validity today, and we should be applying more wisdom. No one continued to argue with me when I said a pornography book shouldn't be treated with the respect of placing it to one's head if it is dropped. The Gita still should be.The times have changed so that there is more adharma around us now than in olden days.

    Times are changing and I think we need to adjust with the times. Another old adage is to 'obey your elders'. At one time I believe this was probably true, especially in the east. Elders were wiser perhaps. But certainly it isn't a hard and fast rule today. What if the elder says, "Boy, let's go get drunk together and find us a couple of prostitutes." Clearly the young man should toss the adage here and now.

    So my proposal for the new adage would be "Obey your elders, provided they are wise elders"

    No wonder today's youth have problems. Some unwise elders also try to maintain this status quo on their kids."I'm your Mother, you have to obey me!"

    But the problem arises with how do we make this transition?

    I welcome all ideas. Lets take apart and critique some adages, see it they are applicable today or not.

    Aum Namasivaya

  2. #2
    Join Date
    September 2009
    Posts
    623
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Obey your elders etc.

    Hi EM
    This is intersting, I have also wondered if there is any value in following one's elders in today's modern age. Here are few ideas which arise:

    1) Does not the elder hand-over some authority now that School and University play a much longer role in the life of the majority of young people? My parents left school before the reached 16, an age where I feel guidance from one's elders may be still sought and found beneficial. Perahps peers, internet and teaching educaitons are now looked on for guidance and respect.

    2) Sex and pronography are powerless if they do not elicit desire. Is it not desire (or correctly focused desire) which needs to be addressed in your example of getting drunk or seeking prostitution?

    Answers in life were probably sought from obeying one's elders, whereas today the resource base for guidance and answers has expanded but does that imply less respect for one's elders? I don't think so.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    September 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Age
    70
    Posts
    7,191
    Rep Power
    5038

    Re: Obey your elders etc.

    Snip: My example was perhaps a poor one, exaggerated to make a point. That would be quite unusual indeed. Lets suppose instead that your parents are non-vegetarian, and you discover vegetarianism, and think its for you. Should you still listen to your elders?

    Once we hit adult age, we have no real obligation to listen to our parents about everything. Even by law, we become legally responsible for our own actions.

    Or.. lets look at these forums. some of the silliest comments IMHO, come from some of the eldest, whilst some beautiful wisdom comes from some of the youngest.

    Aum Namasivaya

  4. #4
    Join Date
    November 2007
    Location
    Wellington, New Zealand
    Age
    38
    Posts
    464
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Obey your elders etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Once we hit adult age, we have no real obligation to listen to our parents about everything. Even by law, we become legally responsible for our own actions.
    I partially agree with you on this, which shows that even though we are Hindus, we still hold Western views on this. Very few Indian Hindus would ever say that. Parents are to be obeyed for as long as they are alive (a teaching which is also found in the Bible).

    But what happens if the parents are abusive? Do you still have to obey them? Is it wrong to cut off all ties to them as soon as you reach adulthood?

    Many divorces amongst Malaysian Hindus occur because of interfering in-laws.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    November 2009
    Age
    39
    Posts
    839
    Rep Power
    1029

    Re: Obey your elders etc.

    EM, you bring up some good points. Personally I tend to subscribe to the "obey your elders" philosophy. Partly this is because I've tried doing things my way in the past, only to learn that my parents were right all along. Actually this is what brought me back to Hinduism.

    That said, what do you do if your parents, or other elders, are unwise? Or, as Scott brought up, what if they're abusive? Indeed, some of the most idiotic and blatently immoral things I've heard in my life came from the mouths of old people. Perhaps we do need to add the provision that people should obey their elders, provided that they are wise. But this begs the question of how wisdom is defined. Clearly we need some objective standard of wisdom and foolishness. I think that ultimately, this standard has to come from God. We can look to Hindu Scriptures, to the teachings of our various gurus and saints, and to logic. Then we can obey our elders to the extent that their teachings agree with this objective standard. I know a lot of Hindus these days say that "there is no truth" and reject the idea of absolute morality altogether. Perhaps this is an overreaction to the rigidity of the West. Without somesort of objective standard of right and wrong, I'm not quite sure how we can properly judge all of the old addages.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    November 2009
    Age
    39
    Posts
    839
    Rep Power
    1029

    Re: Obey your elders etc.

    Also, just a random aside concerning vegetarianism. Personally I believe in living a vegetarian lifestyle so as to avoid needlessly killing animals. That said, I can imagine how we can run into some difficult issues. For example, consider Shirdi Sai Baba. Many people, including myself, consider him to be an avatar of God. However, he lived like a Muslim, and therefore (if I remember correctly), he ate meat. Do we ignore the fact that he did so many miracles and gave many spiritual teachings because of this? Or consider EM's example of a person from a meat-eating family who discovers vegetarianism. If his parents are Christian fundamentalists who don't want their children getting into "Eastern stuff" (or maybe they just have a strong affinity for meat), do we ask this person to cause family disunity for the sake of vegetarianism? This would make us no better than a missionary.

    One solution I see is to consider that all people have different dharma, and the dharma of some may not be vegetarianism. Some here may feel that this doesn't adequately address the problem, though. I don't have any clear answers here, so I'd be interested to see what others think.

  7. #7

    Re: Obey your elders etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam all: Prostrations to Lord Vinayaka!

    I was reflecting on the discussion about books that was had the other day. It lead me to the more generalised topic of how some of the old adages have lost some their validity today, and we should be applying more wisdom. No one continued to argue with me when I said a pornography book shouldn't be treated with the respect of placing it to one's head if it is dropped. The Gita still should be.The times have changed so that there is more adharma around us now than in olden days.

    Times are changing and I think we need to adjust with the times. Another old adage is to 'obey your elders'. At one time I believe this was probably true, especially in the east. Elders were wiser perhaps. But certainly it isn't a hard and fast rule today. What if the elder says, "Boy, let's go get drunk together and find us a couple of prostitutes." Clearly the young man should toss the adage here and now.

    So my proposal for the new adage would be "Obey your elders, provided they are wise elders"

    No wonder today's youth have problems. Some unwise elders also try to maintain this status quo on their kids."I'm your Mother, you have to obey me!"

    But the problem arises with how do we make this transition?

    I welcome all ideas. Lets take apart and critique some adages, see it they are applicable today or not.

    Aum Namasivaya


    The psyche and disposition of someone who grew up in the culture of the west is definitely different from one who grew up in the east.

    Individualism is one of the fibers of the western culture, so it's normal to see children move out of their parents home when they turn 18. In the east, family connection is a bond which strengthens the society.

    As someone who grew up in Asia, I can see, from my point of view, advantages and disadvantages in both systems.

    Still I would think that strong family connection makes for a better society.

    So that follows that I think, its helpful to consult with your elders, from time to time. Two heads are better than one!

    This is not to say that you have to turn off your decision making faculties or not to make assessment of what could be right and wrong for you or let others subjugate your free will.


    Im sorry to say that I take exception to the sentence below from your post Eastern Mind, you said:

    No wonder today's youth have problems. Some unwise elders also try to maintain this status quo on their kids."I'm your Mother, you have to obey me!"


    I think that sentence is not very smart. And I can see that you are coming from someone who maybe was born and grew up in a western culture.

    Youth have problems because they create their own problems (don't we all take responsibility for our own individual karma?)

    If the parent is giving a bad advice, it's not that the practice of asking elders for advice or the practice of following their order is not good, but what is wrong is attributable to human nature eg. the parent is a bad parent.

    Afterall, even a young person who does not seek his/her parents advice, can still go into all sorts of trouble himself. The culprit is the human nature, IMO.
    Last edited by Jivattatva; 10 January 2010 at 03:45 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    January 2007
    Location
    duhkhalayam asasvatam
    Posts
    1,450
    Rep Power
    92

    Re: Obey your elders etc.

    Pranam all
    Jai Ganesh Jai Ganesh Deva, Mata Jena Parvati Ne Pita Shankar Deva
      
     
    I don’t know if the question is parents in particular or elders in general.
    Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
     
     
    If it is parents then we are duty bound to obey as scott ji has inferred.
    Matru devoBhava, Pitru devoBhava.
    off course when faced with Dharma conflict then there should be proper discrimination and act accordingly. My father use to say after certain age one should treat their children as friends, so there is responsibility on elders as well. But to a mother, a child even if middle-aged will always remain a child. We can never repay our dues to them.

    Two incidence come to mind one from Mahabharat and other from Ramayan
    Pandavas obeyed the words of mother Kunti, unknowing she had asked the brother to share equally what they had brought with them.

    Bharat refused the kingdom although Kaikai wished it.
     
      
    Respect is in our language, I would address any individual even if stranger with appropriate words. Until some one gives you a cause to reject an action, the old adage of respecting an elder in my opinion should not be questioned. Once we start doing it is slippery slop and we soon loose touch with our roots.
     
     
    I had a great cultural shock when I came to west but that’s another story. In India even now the elders behave as elders should, unfortunately this will change in due course of time as today’s youth, in emulating the west loose touch with their tradition.
     
     
    Although a lot of elders in west are loosing their grip with dharma unfortunately a lot more today’s youth are fast loosing any thing to do with dharma, caught between two cultures, one offers instant pleasures in the form of wine women and song and the other mostly due to lack of knowledge or time or both, says do as I tell you because they did what their elders told them.

    So my question would be, what should elders do to regain their respect ?
     
     
    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    September 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Age
    70
    Posts
    7,191
    Rep Power
    5038

    Re: Obey your elders etc.

    Vanakkam all: Thanks for the interesting discussion. I had a thought that perhaps the original adage 'respect your elders' referred to respect your elders in wisdom, not just elders in chronological age. I was referring to mostly parents in the original post.

    I certainly agree in principle, and in general to the adage. I was lucky to have had dharmic parents for 99% of the facets of life, maybe even 100. Both are deceased now, but I still hold them in the highest esteem.

    I think its more a matter of not seeing it as an absolute, for me. In the western faiths there are absolutes ... laws never ever to be broken. In the east there is more grey. As Jivatatva has correctly pointed out, there are vast differences. But as western influences infiltrate India more and more, maybe Indian people can learn more from our western mistakes. There has been a huge breakdown in family structure over here, leading to all kinds of problems: loneliness and personal finances to mention but two. Too bad Indians don't notice this more. Of course, some do.

    Sanjaya: Finding some objective standard of wisdom? Yes, that's kind of tricky. I still use whats called 'common sense'. This is the elders in the west version of 'wisdom' in the east.

    Aum Namasivaya

  10. #10
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    223

    Re: Obey your elders etc.

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namasté

    A good conversation above. If I may let me offer one view...
    the taittirīya upaniṣad (sikṣā vallī, 11.1 śloka) informs us of the following:

    mātṛdevo bhava |
    pitṛdevo bhava |
    ācāryadevo bhava |
    atithi devo bhava |
    • mātṛdevo is mātṛ + devo or deva . mātṛ¹ is mother ; it is also a 'knower' + deva we know as divine or heavenly in nature from the root word div ( to shine, be bright, glow); bhava is to come into existence, origin.
      • Hence mātṛdevo bhava is the Divine comes into existence/shines/glows through mother i.e. mother
        is deva
    • pitṛdevo - is 'father is deva' ; pitṛ as a noun is also another name of bṛhas-pati , varuṇa , prajā-pati , and also of heaven or the sky.
      • Hence the Divine comes into existence/shines/glows through father.
    • ācāryadevo - is ācārya is deva ; and ācārya is a spiritual guide or teacher; one who teaches ācāra¹.
      • Hence the Divine comes into existence/shines/glows through the spiritual guide, the ācārya.
    • atithi devo - (my favorite ) , as this word is from a+tithi . a= not or no + tithi which is a lunar day; atithi then means 'one that has no fixed day' - and this is called an unannounced guest.
      • A guest that is entitled to one's hospitality unannounced.
    We can see the level of repect/importance given to mother, father, the teacher and the guest. Yet I have read above 'what if' ... What if there is questionable behavior of the one's giving instruction or direction? The taittirīya upaniṣad (sikṣā vallī, 11.4 to 11.6 ) informs us then,

    if there is any doubt regarding any deed, any doubt regarding conduct you should behave on such occasion as the brahmins do , who may happen to be available and who are able deliberators, who are balance, who need no direction from others, who are not harsh and who live righteousness.

    This is the guidence we are given...

    praṇām

    words
    • mātṛ or matri is also ( in plural case ) as the Divine Mothers -
      • sometimes counted as 7 in number: brāhmī or brahmāṇī , māheśvarī , kaumārī , vaiṣṇavī , vārāhī , indrāṇī or aindrī or māhendrī , cāmuṇḍā
      • sometimes 8 : brāhmi , māheśvarī , kaumārī , vaiṣṇavī , vārāhī , raudrī , carma-muṇḍā , kāla-saṃkarṣiṇī
        sometimes 9: brahmāṇī , vaiṣṇavī , raudrī , vārāhī , nārasiṃhikā , kaumārī , māhendrī , cāmuṇḍā , caṇḍikā
      • sometimes 16:gaurī , padmā , śacī , medhā , sāvitrī , vijayā , jayā , deva-senā , sva-dhā , svāhā , śānti , puṣṭi , dhṛti , tuṣṭi , ātma-devatā and kula-devatā ;
    • Note that ācāra in ācārya is conduct, manner, proper behavior
    Last edited by yajvan; 10 January 2010 at 06:20 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •