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Thread: Sikhism in its current state..........

  1. #1
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    Sikhism in its current state..........

    Sometimes, I wish I had never found this forum. What I have learned in this section of the forum, is at a personal level, rather painful. Whereas I always had a healthy respect for Sikhism and considered it a unique religion, separate from Hinduism; I learned that in its current state Sikhism is dominated by the Tat Khalsa sect who believe that:

    - Sikhism was born in a vacuum, with no Hindu influence on it.

    - In Gurbani, Ram is not the Hindu God Ram, but the reference is to the creator who is ‘ramma hua’ (present in) every speck of the universe. Gopal is not Lord Krishna. It is not go-pal (protector of cows), but jag-pal - God, the protector of everything. Similarly, all other Hindu gods in Gurbani are different names for the creator and have nothing to do with the ‘gods’ that Hindus worship.
    - Somewhere in every copy of Guru Granth Sahib, there is a jyot - God consciousness – sitting in there, but all Hindu scriptures are fiction and Hindu deities and images are just idols.
    - Tat Khalsa Sikhs are the real sikhs. All other sects of Sikhism are evil and need to be ultimately gotten rid of by eliminating their gurus/leaders.

    Most overseas Tat Khalsa Sikhs subscribe to this official line, but in my beloved Punjab, most Sikhs and Hindus have not been influenced by this 'reformed' philosophy, and respect each other’s faith, and life goes on as before. Hope some day the tide will turn and ALL Sikhs will become aware of and acknowledge their original roots.

  2. #2

    Re: Sikhism in its current state..........

    For Hindus outside of Punjab, Sikhism is a foreign religion that is not of any importance whatsoever. So Hindus dont really care for Sikhism. And I reckon the typical Hindu is more informed about Islam than he is of Sikhism.

    Regards,

  3. #3
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    Re: Sikhism in its current state..........

    They believe whatever they want. Sikhism is draws from both Hinduism and Islam. So it's not siprising they have some anti Hindu ideas.

  4. #4

    Re: Sikhism in its current state..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    They believe whatever they want. Sikhism is draws from both Hinduism and Islam. So it's not siprising they have some anti Hindu ideas.
    Ironically for these so-called 'Dharmic' religions; Sikhism and Buddhism it has always been a norm to freely bash Hinduism in order to boost themselves.
    Last edited by Kumar_Das; 06 September 2010 at 01:00 PM.

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    Re: Sikhism in its current state..........

    oh c.rap
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 08 September 2010 at 06:18 PM.

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    Re: Sikhism in its current state..........

    namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumar_Das View Post
    For Hindus outside of Punjab, Sikhism is a foreign religion that is not of any importance whatsoever. So Hindus dont really care for Sikhism. And I reckon the typical Hindu is more informed about Islam than he is of Sikhism.

    Regards,
    This has been my experience too that non-punjabi hindus don't know and don't care about sikhism.
    satay

  7. #7

    Re: Sikhism in its current state..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post

    - Sikhism was born in a vacuum, with no Hindu influence on it.

    - In Gurbani, Ram is not the Hindu God Ram, but the reference is to the creator who is ‘ramma hua’ (present in) every speck of the universe. Gopal is not Lord Krishna. It is not go-pal (protector of cows), but jag-pal - God, the protector of everything. Similarly, all other Hindu gods in Gurbani are different names for the creator and have nothing to do with the ‘gods’ that Hindus worship.
    - Somewhere in every copy of Guru Granth Sahib, there is a jyot - God consciousness – sitting in there, but all Hindu scriptures are fiction and Hindu deities and images are just idols.
    - Tat Khalsa Sikhs are the real sikhs. All other sects of Sikhism are evil and need to be ultimately gotten rid of by eliminating their gurus/leaders.

    I am not sure, how you would label me. I am a sikh without the labels. My guru is Guru Granth Sahib.

    1. I, and most most sikhs, don't believe your first statement. Guru Granth Sahib has bani of 14 bhagats and many poets, out of which 11 were born hindus. Some of these bhagats were at sometime vaishnav like Ramanandji.
    Many hindu figures such as Janak, Vidur, Prahalad, Dhruv are highly revered. Krishna-Sudama story and many such stories are refered to. So, there is significant hindu influence. The significant difference is that "good deeds" are considered helpful in the next world; not just the rituals. Thus Tirath, Vrat, Daan are not considered to help one in God's court - only good deeds are. The current day's hindu would have the same opinion. But not 15th century hindu.

    2. Gurbani says "There is one God, formless....". So how can same gurbani call Krishna and Rama or for that matter Nanak as God. However, Gurbani says "Har Harjan Dui Ek hai". God and Godly people are same. This subtlely is cause of debate, which actually makes no sense.
    A sikh will worship just one formless god, under the guidance of Guru Granth Sahib. He won't worship the Godly people; but would revere and respect them.
    The formless God has to refered to by some name, so names such as Rama, Gopal, Madho, Bitthal are used. It would be a waste of time to go to etymology of those words; rather than just believe that they refer to the ONE GOD.

    3. To consider one's scriptures great doesn't mean we put others' scriptures down. e.g. When we sing "Sare Jahaan se Achha ...", it doesn't mean that rest of the world is not "Achha"

    4. These labels have no meaning. A sikh is one:
    a. who believes in One God
    b. who believes Guru Granth Sahib as Guru and in no living guru
    c. who believes Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh as gurus
    d. who believes in Amrit Ceremony started by Guru Gobind Singh
    e. who believes in three principles Naam Japna, Keerat Karni and Wand Chhakna - meditation, hard work and sharing the fruits of the labor.

    Some sects are not sikh as they don't follow sikhism as defined by Guru Gobind Singh. Where is the confusion ?
    Sikhism is pretty well-defined, so its very easy to figure out who is a sikh and who is not.
    Last edited by darshansingh; 06 September 2010 at 09:30 PM. Reason: spelling correction

  8. #8

    Re: Sikhism in its current state..........

    Sahasranama writes:

    "They believe whatever they want. Sikhism is draws from both Hinduism and Islam. So it's not siprising they have some anti Hindu ideas."
    No, Sikhism is only the religion of the chelas of the Sikh lineage of Guru Sahibaan. The Guru Mat is based on Vedas, Puranas and Shastras. All of it. There is NO Islamic ideology and teaching there. Every single Bhagat in Guru Granth Sahib was a Vaishnav, as were all the Bhatts. The only exception is Baba Farid and his bani is very minimal, and none of it is promoting Muslim Mat. Mohammed is never mentioned by name in the Guru Granth Sahib. Koran is never elevated.


    ਕਾਜੀ ਤੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥
    kaajee thai kavan kathaeb bakhaanee ||
    O Qazi, which book have you read?

    ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    parrhath gunath aisae sabh maarae kinehoon khabar n jaanee ||1|| rehaao ||
    Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning.

    ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥
    sakath sanaehu kar sunnath kareeai mai n badhougaa bhaaee ||
    Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

    ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥
    jo rae khudhaae mohi thurak karaigaa aapan hee katt jaaee ||2||
    If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself.

    ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
    sunnath keeeae thurak jae hoeigaa aourath kaa kiaa kareeai ||
    If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

    ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥
    aradhh sareeree naar n shhoddai thaa thae hindhoo hee reheeai ||3||
    She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu.

    ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
    shhaadd kathaeb raam bhaj bourae julam karath hai bhaaree ||
    Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly.

    ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥
    kabeerai pakaree ttaek raam kee thurak rehae pachihaaree ||4||8||
    Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed.
    ~Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 477



    This is derived from Islam? How? Where in the many concepts of Karma, Dharma, nirguna/sarguna, Yugas, devatay, avtaray, mantras, Nama japna, meditation, turiya, Guru-chela, yoga, is the Islamic concept exactly?

  9. #9

    Re: Sikhism in its current state..........

    Darshansingh writes:
    2. Gurbani says "There is one God, formless....". So how can same gurbani call Krishna and Rama or for that matter Nanak as God. However, Gurbani says "Har Harjan Dui Ek hai". God and Godly people are same. This subtlely is cause of debate, which actually makes no sense.
    A sikh will worship just one formless god, under the guidance of Guru Granth Sahib. He won't worship the Godly people; but would revere and respect them.
    The formless God has to refered to by some name, so names such as Rama, Gopal, Madho, Bitthal are used. It would be a waste of time to go to etymology of those words; rather than just believe that they refer to the ONE GOD.

    Well it does, why do you deny the clear Gurbani? Do you really believe the Sikh sampraday which trained Sanskrit and Shastric scholars did so, with blessing of Guru Gobind Singh Ji JUST so illiterates can oversimplify and refuse to study the very origins of the NAAMs they call the Divine and jap as the boat of mukti?


    ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
    sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
    In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

    ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
    thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
    In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

    ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
    dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
    In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

    ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
    ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
    You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
    kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
    In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 1390

  10. #10

    Re: Sikhism in its current state..........

    4. These labels have no meaning. A sikh is one:
    a. who believes in One God
    b. who believes Guru Granth Sahib as Guru and in no living guru
    c. who believes Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh as gurus
    d. who believes in Amrit Ceremony started by Guru Gobind Singh
    e. who believes in three principles Naam Japna, Keerat Karni and Wand Chhakna - meditation, hard work and sharing the fruits of the labor.

    Some sects are not sikh as they don't follow sikhism as defined by Guru Gobind Singh. Where is the confusion ?
    Sikhism is pretty well-defined, so its very easy to figure out who is a sikh and who is not.
    This definition you have given of a Sikh does not come from any source attributable to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. it is directly from the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha SGPC Sikh Rehit Maryada compiled and published for the first time in the world in 1945.

    Sikhism is only well-defined because of the Singh Sabha takeover and deliberate re-definition marginalizing all the traditional sanatan Sikh sampraday. THAT my dear is the origin of the conflict. There is no confusion. The Sikhism of the Singh Sabha is NOT the Sikhism of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. And it is a clear breach from history. And it's sole authority rests on bullying and suppressing the sanatan heritage.

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