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Thread: Hate speech of Abrahamics

  1. #81
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    Re: Hate speech of Abrahamics

    Namaste,
    Greetings to all. Tikkun Olam, I debated whether to respond because your posting struck me as so sincere and personal to you. I respectfully respond to clarify that my reference to meaningless was to the perpetrators rationale and their actions as individuals. I as well do not prescribe to randomness or that world is blind or random in context I think you mean. Beyond this, think we depart in our beliefs in many most important ways.
    I wish you well.

    Om Shanti.
    FFTW

  2. #82
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    Re: Hate speech of Abrahamics

    I don't think hitler was encouraging norse religion. the anti-semitism in general
    has deep roots in christianity. here are some good posts i found on why hitler's ideology has more to do with christianity.

    http://egregores.blogspot.com/2009/1...ans-oh-my.html

    http://egregores.blogspot.com/2010/0...nazis-and.html

    http://egregores.blogspot.com/2010/0...reedom-of.html

    http://egregores.blogspot.com/2010/0...-horowitz.html

    http://egregores.blogspot.com/2010/0...and-nazis.html

    http://egregores.blogspot.com/2010/0...ack-nazis.html

    above posts are six part series on nazis, christians and pagans .

    What I got from these is that when christians say nazi ideology is pagan,
    they are just bluffing. if anybody wants to debate a christian on such issues,
    above posts give very good ammunition.

  3. #83
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    Re: Hate speech of Abrahamics

    Hi Sanjaya.

    I don't know much about Hitler but if for the sake of argument we assume
    that he had no core beliefs of his own and only talked about Christianity
    in order to manipulate others, it is still significant that such talk had
    resonance with the German population. However few question the
    spiritual conviction of the German Martin Luther who Hitler counts
    as one of his heroes.


    Quote Originally Posted by sanjaya View Post
    Hi Gitananda. So Hitler's Christianity is a really hard thing to pin down. On the one hand he called himself a Catholic and made comments like the one you posted (I'm actually familiar with this particular quote). On the other, he indoctrinated the SS officers into an altered version of Norse religion, which is decidedly not Christian. There are lots of quotes by Hitler in which he extols Christianity. But go to any Christian apologetics website, and there are just as many quotes in which he denounces Christianity. Granted, the Christian apologists are likely to take him out of context to some extent. But the fact remains that Hitler was a charismatic leader who basically said whatever he needed to say to the crowd in front of him to persuade them that killing Jews is in their best interest.

    I have no short supply of grievances against Christianity, but I am a bit hesitant to pin the Holocaust on them.
    Last edited by R Gitananda; 05 November 2011 at 03:05 AM.
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

  4. #84

    Re: Hate speech of Abrahamics

    Quote Originally Posted by issacnewton View Post
    the anti-semitism in general
    has deep roots in christianity.
    That's not entirely true. For sure, it existed long before Christianity itself, and it still exists today besides the fact that both religious and racial tolerance is probably the best we've seen in history. I can prove it to you here.

    Statements exhibiting prejudice against Jews and their religion can be found in the works of many pagan Greek and Roman writers.[13] Edward Flannery writes that it was the Jews' refusal to accept Greek religious and social standards that marked them out. Hecataetus of Abdera, a Greek historian of the early third century BCE, wrote that Moses "in remembrance of the exile of his people, instituted for them a misanthropic and inhospitable way of life." Manetho, an Egyptian historian, wrote that the Jews were expelled Egyptian lepers who had been taught by Moses "not to adore the gods."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism

    This existed in the ancient world with the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans, several hundred years before there even was Christianity! At the same time, the Persians didn't feel much differently;

    There is a certain people dispersed and scattered among the peoples in all the provinces of your kingdom whose customs are different from those of all other people and who do not obey the king's laws; it is not in the king's best interest to tolerate them. If it pleases the king, let a decree be issued to destroy them.
    http://www.livius.org/am-ao/antisemi...emitism01.html

    For good measure, here is another one from the Greek writer Cassius Dio;

    They [the Jews] are distinguished from the rest of mankind in practically every detail of life, and especially by the fact that they do not honour any of the usual gods, but show extreme reverence for one particular divinity. They never had any statue of him even in Jerusalem itself, but believing him to be unnamable and invisible, they worship him in the most extravagant fashion on earth. 3 They built to him a temple p129that was extremely large and beautiful, except in so far as it was open and roofless,10 and likewise dedicated to him the day called the day of Saturn [Saturday], on which, among many other most peculiar observances, they undertake no serious occupation.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...s_Dio/37*.html

    And the Roman teacher Philostratu;

    For the Jews have long been in revolt not only against the Romans, but against humanity; and a race that has made its own life apart and irreconcilable, that cannot share with the rest of mankind in the pleasure of the table nor join in their libations or prayers or sacrifices, are separate from ourselves by a greater gulf than divides us from Sura or Bactra of the most distant Indies.
    http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/quotes/

    These can go on and on. The last one was from the time Christianity was a mere seedling. A tiny unrecognizable bubble, yet this writing surprisingly mentions this "long" period of time, as it was nothing new even then.


    I know what you're going to say next. "They hated you because you were different". This is not true. They hated us period, and they used the fact we were different to explain it in hindsight. Here's the hypocrisy;

    Some Christians were persecuted in Rome through error, they being "mistaken for Jews." The meaning seems plain. These pagans had nothing against Christians, but they were quite ready to persecute Jews. For some reason or other they hated a Jew before they even knew what a Christian was. May I not assume, then, that the persecution of Jews is a thing which antedates Christianity and was not born of Christianity? I think so.

    ...

    I feel convinced that the Crucifixion has not much to do with the world's attitude towards the Jew; that the reasons for it are older than that event, as suggested by Egypt's experience and by Rome's regret for having persecuted an unknown quantity called a Christian, under the mistaken impression that she was merely persecuting a Jew. Merely a Jew - a skinned eel who was used to it, presumably.
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1898twain-jews.asp



    Even today in America, a similar thing exists although now it's not because we are trying to be different (America is modeled much more closely to Jewish values than Roman ones, so we're no longer cultural outcasts). I don't know how much people in India follow American current events, but the big topic the past few weeks has been Occupy Wall Street. These have turned recently into riots. When I first saw videos of it, I thought I was watching Greece. It was actually in New York and California. These are people who are now blaming "the 1%" for beating up the other 99%. They blame the banks, the media, and the Federal Reserve. Now, if you speak to them, who is it that control the banks, the media, and the Federal Reserve? WHO, exactly, is the 1% in America who is controlling the rest of them? I will give you one guess.

    The Zionist Jews who are running these big banks and our Federal Reserve -- which is not run by the federal government -- they need to be run out of this country! Jews have been run out of 109 countries throughout history, and we need to run them out of this one.
    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/t...BirVJN24fEEP/0


    This was not said two millennial ago, it was said two weeks ago.


    I have heard the organizers of this Occupy Wall Street thing being interviewed about comments such as this. They don't condemn the comments, rather calling them "free speech". Free speech is letting people say what they want, but then you have a right to come back and say it's wrong. These people won't admit it's wrong. That's what I find scary.






    Going back to the original post, I can understand why you don't like the Pope, but he doesn't HATE you. He doesn't want to run you out of your land or exterminate you. He wants you to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, because he wants every one to. That's his belief- that he's saving you- but he doesn't treat you differently from anyone else who is not a Christian. It's a purely religious difference between you and him.



    The things I listed above cannot be described by religious or cultural persecutions, whether it was the pagans or the Christians.



    Friend From the West, do you still disagree with me?

  5. #85
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    Re: Hate speech of Abrahamics

    Namaste,
    Tikkun Olam,
    I am not intentionally being obtuse. I think I know what you are asking me, but do not want to be mistaken. Please ask your question if it is your will to do so. Please ask so that I do not have to make inference. I will honor you and your question with a response, if that is what you wish.

    OM Shanti.
    FFTW

  6. #86

    Re: Hate speech of Abrahamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Friend from the West View Post
    Namaste,
    Tikkun Olam,
    I am not intentionally being obtuse. I think I know what you are asking me, but do not want to be mistaken. Please ask your question if it is your will to do so. Please ask so that I do not have to make inference. I will honor you and your question with a response, if that is what you wish.

    OM Shanti.
    FFTW
    Okay, I will try to make this as lucid as possible.

    I can think of three general explanations for the hate and violence;

    1) They happen for no reason
    2) They happen for a reason
    (a) They happen for negative reason
    (b) They happen for positive reason

    I think that I can thoroughly discredit explanations 1 and 2a in the case of antisemitism. In that case, the explanation is necessarily 2b. This is what Anne Frank also claimed- that it is for this reason, and only this reason, we suffer. I believe this too, which is why I quoted it.

    I think this is logical. If I'm not right, then why? Where have I gone wrong, and how can you explain it differently?

  7. #87
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    Re: Hate speech of Abrahamics

    Hari Om Tikkun Olam and to all,

    First, Tikkun Olam, I apologize for late response. I saw your post this evening. My intent was not to ignore, especially in light of invitation for you to respond, if this was your wish. Again, for this, I apologize.

    In regard to hate and violence perpetrated from one to another, think it does happen for a reason and think ultimately, does happen for a positive reason. In this regard, do not see where we depart.

    To be true, these thoughts, among other things, help me to sleep at night as well.

    Tikkun Olam, I wish you only peace.

    Om Shanti

    FFTW

  8. #88
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    Re: Hate speech of Abrahamics

    My thoughts on this are here: http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=8517

    Quote Originally Posted by Tikkun Olam View Post
    Okay, I will try to make this as lucid as possible.

    I can think of three general explanations for the hate and violence;

    1) They happen for no reason
    2) They happen for a reason
    (a) They happen for negative reason
    (b) They happen for positive reason

    I think that I can thoroughly discredit explanations 1 and 2a in the case of antisemitism. In that case, the explanation is necessarily 2b. This is what Anne Frank also claimed- that it is for this reason, and only this reason, we suffer. I believe this too, which is why I quoted it.

    I think this is logical. If I'm not right, then why? Where have I gone wrong, and how can you explain it differently?
    Last edited by R Gitananda; 18 November 2011 at 12:20 PM.
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

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