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Thread: Spare the rod, spoil the child

  1. #1
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    Spare the rod, spoil the child

    Vanakkam all:

    Here is another adage for discussion. Here is a fairly recent article on it:

    http://www.merinews.com/article/no-c...15766429.shtml

    World wide, the decline of corporal punishment has accelerated. I am wondering at what stage its at in India or Malaysia now. Here in Canada it was officially abolished by law in the whole country some time back. Ironically, America,(particularly in the Bible Belt states) and of course many Islamic nations are the worst offenders.

    Clearly, the custom doesn't follow any ahimsa guidelines. I have seen a major shift in my lifetime. I can only remember my father spanking me once as a youngster, although the threat was there. It was mostly the same for grade school. I never got the strap, but some fellow classmates did. There were major attitude differences between principals as well. Some used it liberally, others not at all. I think caning is more brutal than strapping. it seems the bruises would last longer.

    As a teacher, in my first two schools in the early 80s I also strapped kids. Three, in fact, and I remember each one. It was still the status quo, and I took the advice of the principal. After the last time in about 1984, I knew it was my last one. The cruelty factor had always been with me so I felt guilty anyway. But the bottom line was that it simply didn't work as a behaviour modification tool.

    So we are on the right track, in my opinion, but still have a long ways to go. There was a story out of Delhi last spring that brought it to light. Call it western journalist sensationalism if you wish, but still a child died. She was forced to stand outside in the heat and suffered heatstroke, later leading to her death.

    I guess the real question is what we can do to accelerate the change even more.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Spare the rod, spoil the child

    Here in the United States the situation is somewhat similar. Corporal punishment is now pretty much out of fashion. Evangelical Christians still do it and preach that it ought to be used in disciplining children, but beating kids in public schools and other public areas is almost unheard of. Not sure how to accelerate the process though. There will always be this group of people who believe in the Bible's statement "whoever spares the rod hates his son" (that's where the addage in the title comes from). These people believe that by hitting their kids, they're instilling positive traits. All we can do is point to the violence in Western culture to show that this isn't true. The problem even here is that the same people who beat their kids also support conservative America's gun mania and obsession with engaging in war and other violence. The evangelical Christian subculture is a culture that loves violence, and I don't know how to crack that nut.

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    Re: Spare the rod, spoil the child

    Sanjaya: Yes, thanks.

    I am curious to the incidence in India. I know my Sri Lankan friends, especially the elder ones, talk of being beaten with canes at school. The schools were Catholic primarily, and heavily influenced by that nutcase McAuley. So you could argue that the had nothing at all to do with Hinduism, just a facet of British or European mentality imported into Sri Lanka. None of my friends are old enough or have any memories of pre-British times. Of course the whole concept of schooling earlier would have been much different with home and school being mostly the same place with the exception of Gurukulams.

    But the Sri Lankan immigrants changed their ways when they got over here, at about the same rate as my western culture did. 25 years ago I saw Tamils pulling their kids around by their ears. Now I don't see that.

    Perhaps you could do me a favor and ask your father about his school days back in India. He'd know more, I'm sure. I'm wondering if its still a prevalent belief.

    We had absolutely brutal schools called residential schools here in Canada and in the US where the "good" Fathers and Nuns pulled native American kids off their reservations into what were called residential schools to educate the heathens. Still we have apologies and lawsuits going on over that stuff. My own father spoke of the dreaded 'cat o' nine' tails.


    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Spare the rod, spoil the child

    hari o
    ~~~~~

    Namasté

    Keeping the facts for the USA in perspective. Capital punishment in the USA is infrequently exercised - so say the facts:
    • the average has been about one execution for about every 700 murders committed or 0.142%
    • There has been 1,191 executions in the last 34 years = ~ 35 executions per year
    • 35 executions divided by the U.S.A. population of 307 million = 0.000011%
    What the USA struggles with...
    The 'issue' over the death penalty centers around four issues:
    • Is it is morally correct to kill
    • Is it effective - that is, does the death penalty serve as a deterrent
    • Is it applied fairly across racial, social, and economic classes
    • Is it irrevocable when new evidence presents itself. Since 1976, 112 prisoners have been released due to new info, etc.
    Also note the USA is a nation of states. Each one gets to decide ( legislate ) their laws. 32% of the states have no capital punishment.


    Crime overall is down 16% in the last 30 years - so says the Dept of Justice statistics. Are there bad things still occuring? Sure. Yet the USA is improving.


    Now what is up? The news. It is on 24 hrs a day 7 days a week - and people hear more and more 'bad' vs. 'good'.

    source:
    http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/law_enforcement_courts_prisons/crimes_and_crime_rates.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Spare the rod, spoil the child

    Namaste EM,

    Using rod to teach a child was prevalent in my school days. I myself was beaten a few times by my teachers.

    However, the situation is now changing. The parents & Govt take any incidence of beating a child in school seriously. There have been cases when children have died due to harsh punishments & it has provoked strong sentiments against corporal punishment. These days, if you are a teacher in India & want to beat a child to correct him, you can do it only at your own perils ... you can lose your job, you can be manhandled by angry crowd, you can be a hated figure in media & of course, you can be arrested & prosecuted as per law of the land.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Spare the rod, spoil the child

    namaste.

    I am of course strongly opposed to the use of the rod or strap at school but then I favour the occasional use of rod and that only by the parent at home when their son/daughter does something unbearably naughty as a matter of habit or with the knowledge that what they are doing is wrong.

    A subhAShita in the ChANakya NIti says, "Indulge a child for the first five years of his life, for the next ten years deal firmly with him. Once the child is sixteen, treat him as a friend."

    The Hindu practice of worshipping Ganesha--the dorbiH karaNam--when used with discretion and limit, could be a great way of reformation for an errant child.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: Spare the rod, spoil the child

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Perhaps you could do me a favor and ask your father about his school days back in India. He'd know more, I'm sure. I'm wondering if its still a prevalent belief.
    I've actually asked him about this in the past. It seems that in his school, corporal punishment wasn't the usual method of discipline. Usually a teacher would simply throw a piece of chalk at a disruptive student, or make him lean against a corner with the legs bent. But then, my dad didn't go to a Catholic school until high school, so maybe this explains the low frequency of corporal punishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    I am of course strongly opposed to the use of the rod or strap at school but then I favour the occasional use of rod and that only by the parent at home when their son/daughter does something unbearably naughty as a matter of habit or with the knowledge that what they are doing is wrong.
    If I may inquire further, what sort of behavior would we say is unbearably naughty and worthy of beating? Although I'm against corporal punishment, I admit that I've seen behavior from some children which even I sometimes feel could be easily remedied by the rod. That said, perhaps children only get to this point when parents fail to exercise other disciplinary measures from an early age.

    Not being a parent, I'm probably straying into waters where I ought not to tread.

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    Re: Spare the rod, spoil the child

    namaste Sanjaya.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjaya View Post
    If I may inquire further, what sort of behavior would we say is unbearably naughty and worthy of beating? Although I'm against corporal punishment, I admit that I've seen behavior from some children which even I sometimes feel could be easily remedied by the rod. That said, perhaps children only get to this point when parents fail to exercise other disciplinary measures from an early age.

    Not being a parent, I'm probably straying into waters where I ought not to tread.
    What constitutes behaviour that is worthy of corporal punishment is subjective and depends largely on family traditions. A large number of Hindu families these days are very liberal (they call it progressive) and the children take after the habits of their parents whose daily activities include very little if any of the religion.

    Since the child is to be treated with independence and respect once he/she attains sixteen years of age, a prudent parent would plan about the dharmic education of the child right from its infant days.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  9. #9

    Re: Spare the rod, spoil the child

    I hope I can share my experiences here, although I am a little hesitant due to the nature of those experiences. I wonder if others can even relate to this. Anyway, in a nutshell, I went to school in India, a private school which also claimed to be Hindu. Yet they were more like Catholic schools we hear about, so much so their punishments were more like physical abuse you get in prison. One student was literally 'hung' on the wall, like a painting. Many students were not just disciplined but humiliated in ways you can't even imagine, like removing their clothes etc.

    Worst of all, parents were okay with this, rationalizing that their children needed this. Curiously, even students who were punished started justifying the teachers' actions! In all, it was one sadomasochistic ritual that went on in my school, and I can't believe I am still a balanced individual today; maybe, it's God's grace.

    Considering my experiences, therefore, I'd be against ANY form of punishment for anyone, whether it's in school or even outside of it such as politics, society etc. No punishment whatsoever. Even the worst criminals don't deserve it, because I know what it's like...the shame more than the pain, if you know what I mean.

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    Re: Spare the rod, spoil the child

    Vanakkam Devotee, Saidevo, Sanjaya:

    Devotee: That is good news indeed. Amazing how only a few short years ago, if you beat an adult it was assault, but if you beat kid it was okay.

    Sanjaya: Now that is interesting. I wonder if there indeed was a significant difference between the Christian schools and the Hindu or public ones. The use of 'time out' is the most common method today in schools here. I'd place kids in the hallway, and then once the class was working, I'd go out and have a logical friendly discussion with them about other's rights not to be disturbed or something depending on circumstance. Usually that worked really well. It was also amazing how well a well-though out seating plan for students helped.

    I must admit, though, that I spanked my own kids sometimes when they were young and misbehaving. Usually it was when I was incredibly tired or stressed. I know it was wrong, and have done some penance to atone, but probably still have the karma. I don't think either of my 2 youngest got it though.

    Saidevo: Now I can't think of any reason whatsoever to beat a child. But you are entitled to your opinion. Hopefully people can think this over really well before committing assault.

    Aum Namasivaya

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