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Thread: States of existence

  1. #21
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    Re: States of existence

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Kallol,



    I read about this body-clock or biological clock in my childhood. However, now I look at it differently. May be if you question this concept critically, you will have new clues to nature of Consciousness. Can you locate this biological clock anywhere in the brain/body ? Who is aware of this clock while you are asleep ?



    You are wrong, here. Body cannot be trained in anything. Mind can be trained. Body without mind's power is dead meat. Now, if the mind is engaged in talking to a friend or listening to its favourite music who is taking care of driving correctly ?

    OM
    With the present level of knowledge, I feel it is body. It might change later.

    Body, being like a robot (with respect to higher mind), has some functions inherently, which it does. Like the internal activities - over which we hardly have mental control. Similarly some activities can be internalised and embedded in case it is taught regularly. The same is true for other animals also.

    The same is the case in brain dead state or coma state. Certain activities are embedded by default and certain amount can be embedded according to need (like FPGA).

    Mind need not always communicate with body for it's functioning. Also it might not be in the body, to make it function. The mind can get detached to the threshold limits beyond which it does not return. Depending on the yogic capability the threshold can be increased also. Body is programmed to take care of itself within that threshold zone. Remember we have discussed on the minds of the organs and cells. It is in these the biological clock resides.

    Consciousness is enabler not Doer, so I cannot bring IT into picture.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  2. #22

    Re: States of existence

    Namaste kallol, devotee, all

    It could be of interest to examine the thyroid and pineal gland, and with it thus, the neuro endocrine system. By which our mind connects to our subtle body, which is its self, "apparently" suspended in the frame work of our physical body; by sensual perception.

    The thyroid via hormones and its connection to the pineal gland; regulates the body's temperature, immune system (see also cancer link), allergic response and also body clock via melatonin and serotonin production, among others.

    This hormonal system is also very much involved with our decision making processes, such as fight/flight, sexual and other; due to the adrenal glands and of course the sexual organs.

    Interestingly recent research into jet lag has shown that the body/mind reacts and readjusts much faster if the person concerned meditates in or bathes in sunlight in the new destination.

    Now the question here seems to be; as to the direction of flow of energy within this network of nervous chemical electric exchange; what can we call mind?

    For example, our heart beats by its self, we often pass long periods of time giving no second thought to it. Our breathing happens in accordance with this to supply the required amount of oxygen to oxygenate the blood pumped. Do you see the direct relationship between the volume of blood and the volume of oxygen? They are directly proportional.
    Now if I slow my breathing, the heart, via this relationship also slows in accordance. Now it is interesting to note here that the heart its self contains many millions of neurons. It has been observed that; the heart acts before the brain in certain situations, when the body may need more oxygen, in effect the heart decides before the ego; now is this mechanical; its response may be said to be acted upon by our intuition?

    The injection of adrenalin that the heart is pumping through the body creates a feedback loop, this can drive our actions right down to our very thought and speech, the implications are profound; yet our breathing has a direct effect upon these otherwise automated response.

    Food for thought.

    praNAma

    mana
    Last edited by Mana; 24 March 2012 at 03:27 AM.

  3. #23
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    Re: States of existence

    Namaste Kallol,

    Quote Originally Posted by kallol View Post
    With the present level of knowledge, I feel it is body. It might change later.

    Body, being like a robot (with respect to higher mind), has some functions inherently, which it does. Like the internal activities - over which we hardly have mental control. Similarly some activities can be internalised and embedded in case it is taught regularly. The same is true for other animals also.

    The same is the case in brain dead state or coma state. Certain activities are embedded by default and certain amount can be embedded according to need (like FPGA).

    Mind need not always communicate with body for it's functioning. Also it might not be in the body, to make it function. The mind can get detached to the threshold limits beyond which it does not return. Depending on the yogic capability the threshold can be increased also. Body is programmed to take care of itself within that threshold zone. Remember we have discussed on the minds of the organs and cells. It is in these the biological clock resides.

    Consciousness is enabler not Doer, so I cannot bring IT into picture.
    I think, we should not assume that mind is in brain alone. The Consciousness which is capable to perceive something, discriminate, accept any signal and act on the signal is mind. Therefore, no intelligent system can exist in absence of a mind. What I am trying to point out here is : When "i" in you is sleeping ... there is another "i" which is taking care of proper functioning of biological clock and also making the body act as per the biological clock. In the deep sleep state when your 'i" which owns all your thoughts and actions in the waking state is dissolved into undifferentiated Mass of Consciousness & even then another "i" keeps working. That indicates how this body can't claim to have one unique consciousness alone (only the waking "i" with which we tend to associate ourselves). But can we say that there are different many consciousnesses ? That would be ridiculous.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  4. #24
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    Re: States of existence

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    Namaste kallol, devotee, all

    It could be of interest to examine the thyroid and pineal gland, and with it thus, the neuro endocrine system. By which our mind connects to our subtle body, which is its self, "apparently" suspended in the frame work of our physical body; by sensual perception.

    The thyroid via hormones and its connection to the pineal gland; regulates the body's temperature, immune system (see also cancer link), allergic response and also body clock via melatonin and serotonin production, among others.

    This hormonal system is also very much involved with our decision making processes, such as fight/flight, sexual and other; due to the adrenal glands and of course the sexual organs.

    Interestingly recent research into jet lag has shown that the body/mind reacts and readjusts much faster if the person concerned meditates in or bathes in sunlight in the new destination.

    Now the question here seems to be; as to the direction of flow of energy within this network of nervous chemical electric exchange; what can we call mind?

    For example, our heart beats by its self, we often pass long periods of time giving no second thought to it. Our breathing happens in accordance with this to supply the required amount of oxygen to oxygenate the blood pumped. Do you see the direct relationship between the volume of blood and the volume of oxygen? They are directly proportional.
    Now if I slow my breathing, the heart, via this relationship also slows in accordance. Now it is interesting to note here that the heart its self contains many millions of neurons. It has been observed that; the heart acts before the brain in certain situations, when the body may need more oxygen, in effect the heart decides before the ego; now is this mechanical; its response may be said to be acted upon by our intuition?

    The injection of adrenalin that the heart is pumping through the body creates a feedback loop, this can drive our actions right down to our very thought and speech, the implications are profound; yet our breathing has a direct effect upon these otherwise automated response.

    Food for thought.

    praNAma

    mana
    Namaste all,

    Body is controlled by nervous system.Again nervous system is various type according to subtleties of their function. Higher functions like cognitive functions ,the biological clock via melatonin of pineal glands all comes under higher cortical part of our cerebrum which is anatomically at level of crown-sahasrara.

    The lower functions like sex,hunger,fear,smell and self defensive reflexes are controlled by Lower Limbic system which is at level of Ajna chakra.(physically at level of ear.

    The autonomic nervous system which controls heart,blood pressure are located along side of spinal cord...which is very adjacent to nadis/susmna.

    what do these proximity of anatomical location with spiritual yogic bodies implies?

    These are grosser matter to the underlying subtler spiritual tracts/paths. When the prana flows in nadis,the blood flows in contemporary arteries.

    And mind and prana are almost synonymous. where goes mind,prana follows.so mind is the boss/subtler. Entire nervous system is a hardwire which runs this machine called body.the soft power is mind which is consciousness.

    This minds head office is brain,but its not the only place for mind.
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

  5. #25

    Re: States of existence

    Namaste anirvan,

    It is rather a beautiful example of the universe folding back upon her self.

    The ancient model, derived with introspection, hypersensitivity and experience; confirmed by the latest neuro science.

    Neuro science, seen externally, is so complicated; the practitioners can't yet see the forest for the trees. Yet introspection and careful observation reveals the framework as a model, an apparition.

    The extroverted Doctors are not yet aware of the true nature of that which they study, I think that this will soon change. Unified conciousness, God conciousness, will become apparent as it is shown to be fractal in nature.

    It is, to my mind; within this fractal field, that we can denote "states of existence".

    Practise is of course, another matter ...

    praNAma

    mana

  6. #26

    Re: States of existence

    Quote Originally Posted by kallol View Post
    Dear Maya,

    There is a body clock. This clock regulates many activities which includes hunger, sleep, etc.

    If the body is trained to wake at certain time, it develops that habit. I have this still.

    Again you will find body can be trained to carry out tasks automatically without the directions from mind. So even you are on phone or in deep engrossing discussion with friend, your car reaches known destinations.

    The capabilities of the body is still to be fully explored. We see certain special skills in different people which provokes the thought on the capabilities of body.
    It is not at a certain time, by habit. That too, but that is different.

    It is whatever time I set "myself" to, it could be 6 AM, 3 AM or 5 AM. But never later like 9 or ten, I always wake up before that.

    Maya

  7. #27
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    Re: States of existence

    Also with me too, this time was not ever a fixed constant.

    The first time it ever happen i was four years old. It was take child to job day. My father worked at the federal building many miles away and had to leave to work by 5 am. He tell me...if you are asleep i will not wake you to take. So i sit and pray to Beloved and ask for a way. I say "I will be up at 4:30" three or four times. But being so small i fell asleep quickly.

    Four thirty on the nose, i woke up. After this, throughout school...even for SAT (a very important test) i use this trick. Any time, random.

    But, now as i am older i have so many depending on me...i never do this. Besides, the husband also has to get up. My timer is never going to do that.

  8. #28
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    Re: States of existence

    Maya & NS - Absolutely correct - I did not mean exact time. Human being or animals acts based on fuzzy / neuro / etc. logics (called soft controls), which are based on imperfections. My PhD subject is same but in the area of underwater robots.

    Genarally the evolution if you notice is from

    1. Reaction only - in case of (lifeless) physical matters. I push a stone and it moves i.e it reacts

    2. Sense and react - in case of monocells, lower beings, plants and trees. They sense something and react. Like plants sense sunlight and grow towards that. Only with addition of "sense" part we say that it has life.

    3. Learn - Sense - React - This is the case in higher animals. They learn to walk, fly, run, turn, sit, eat, etc. Then they sense and react with the learning.

    4. Learn - sense -plan - react - this is the case in some higher animals (to less extent) and mostly in human. This is where the logics, analysis comes before we take decisions. This is where the state of mind can be changed.

    That is why the lower forms are only "bhoktas" and cannot change the state of mind.

    Now if you notice, only with the advent of "plan" we move to mental activities more. It is here we try to know and decide the future. So this part "know" is the next evolution.

    God "knows" all.

    Depending on the frequencies of mind, the mind utilizes the logical part of the brain otherwise the the reactive part of the brain, takes over. Suddenly you see a tiger in your room. The part which makes you run for life is the reactive brain and not the mind (you just don't think at all neither you can afford to). When it is death staring at you, the reactive part of the brain takes over.

    Mind is active when the logical part of the brain is existing and depending on the capability of the brain, the mind's potential capability exists. Also you need to have time to think.
    Last edited by kallol; 24 March 2012 at 10:26 AM.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  9. #29
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    Re: States of existence

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Kallol,



    I think, we should not assume that mind is in brain alone. The Consciousness which is capable to perceive something, discriminate, accept any signal and act on the signal is mind. Therefore, no intelligent system can exist in absence of a mind. What I am trying to point out here is : When "i" in you is sleeping ... there is another "i" which is taking care of proper functioning of biological clock and also making the body act as per the biological clock. In the deep sleep state when your 'i" which owns all your thoughts and actions in the waking state is dissolved into undifferentiated Mass of Consciousness & even then another "i" keeps working. That indicates how this body can't claim to have one unique consciousness alone (only the waking "i" with which we tend to associate ourselves). But can we say that there are different many consciousnesses ? That would be ridiculous.

    OM
    The "I" is a kind of weighted average of the lower "I"s. It stays closer to the lower "I"s which pulls more.

    Like in a society. The "I" of society is towards the "I"s of the section which has more influence. If society has predominantly good people the "I" of the society is towards the good and vice versa.

    "I" is a floating variable.

    The base assumption is that everything is out of consciousness and dissolves in consciousness. Again it is also true that once out of consciousness they acquire different characteristics enabled by consciousness.

    The body "I" sleeps but heart "I", Lungs "I" stomach "I", etc cannot sleep. They are awake. The body functions go on and they have their own cycles of operations. These cycles are the ones which can be trained.

    During sleep there is no intelligence at body level. But again the internal parts are not sleeping. The internal intelligence is on.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  10. #30
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    Re: States of existence

    Next few questions towards the understanding :

    1. Why is that consciousness is not directly acting on body ?

    As we understand that, it is the mind that rules the body. The consciousness is felt by the body only if mind is there in the body. Why can't consciousness by pass mind ? Does it mean it does not recognize the body as such and needs a driver (mind) to communicate ?

    2. How does mind act on body ? What are the means ?

    A body inhabited by mind "X" has one level of charaterictics (Rajas, Tamas, Satvik) and the same body inhabited by mind "Y" has another type of characteristics.

    Does it mean that different minds brings in different energy levels into the body functioning ?

    3. If the above assumptions are true then the continuity chain is again consciousness understands mind and works through it.

    Mind understands energy and works through it.

    Energy understands body and acts through it.

    (I have not considered exceptions).

    But is the understanding correct ?

    4. If it is so then why ? i.e. consciousness understands mind and not all levels below. Similarly for others (vice versa also).

    5. Does it mean this is the normal chain of evolution - consciouness to subtle bodies to (energy to) gross bodies ?

    This is what has been given in scriptures also, if I am right.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

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