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Thread: Loving God - Two ways

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    Loving God - Two ways

    Namaste,

    There are two ways people love God.

    The first one is loving Him as one would love his/her children. You shower them with affection, don't expect anything in return, and no matter what they do, you support them and are always there for them. It is all one sided with no expectations. The parent nurtures the relationship and provides love at all times and under all circumstances. Any disappointments in the relationship do not diminish the parental love.

    On the other end of the spectrum, some people love God as a parent. Their affection is proportional to how well they are taken care and how many of their demands are met. The relationship is like a business proposition. You give me this, this and this, and in return I will recognize your existence and care for/worship You. Any time the expectation is not met, prize not awarded, demands unfulfilled, the love and affection goes down a notch.

    Another way of describing this is people's beggar/worshiper relationship with God. Some people go to the temple to thank the Lord for everything bestowed on them - health, family, material wealth. Others may go to the temple always as beggars, with a give me, give me attitude. Their prayers are purely petitionary in nature. Instead of worshiping and thanking the Lord, they go there only to submit a list of things that they think they are entitled to, and the Lord should make them available to keep the relationship intact. The Hindi word jholi comes to mind in this context. Jholi is a receptacle made either by holding a piece of cloth out for alms or by simply grabbing the lower tips on the front of one's shirt and raising them a little to make a jholi, a receptacle. Here is a pictorial representation of jholi:

    http://www.srisaimandir.org/Programs/SaiJholi.aspx
    (Sorry, not a very good pictorial example, as it neither shows a beggar, nor a real jholi made from the lower part of the front of the shirt.)

    So, some people go to the temple with a jholi, like beggars and the only thing they do there is beg and ask for the jholi to be filled with things. There is no love or affection or service to the Lord involved. The visit is only for asking that the jholi be filled with more things. A true devotee, on the other hand goes to the temple to thank the Lord for the things that He has filled his/her jholi with. It is quite a contrast between the two types of temple visitors - one with an empty jholi, always asking for more, and the other with a jholi that he thinks has been filled with the Lord's bounty and he thanks Him for that. The attitude that we take to the temple, one of a beggar or that of a thankful devotee, makes a lot of difference in what we come out with as we leave the temple, and ultimately to our spiritual progress.

    Pranam.
    Last edited by Believer; 12 February 2012 at 08:27 PM.

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    Re: Loving God - Two ways

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Could there be a 3rd way ? to adore Him as my very own Self? Then I carry the ~temple~ with me every moment
    of every day no matter where I put my feet.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Loving God - Two ways

    Hari Om!

    And perhaps seeing that everything already belongs to Shiva. He offers all generously and freely.

    "Lord, I am but your humble servant. I understand that this (__________) truly belongs to you and by your grace, you have given it to me as prasadam. Many thanks for your generosity and blessings. Om Namah Sivaya!"


    Om Namah Sivaya
    Jai Hanuman!

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    Re: Loving God - Two ways

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast

    Could there be a 3rd way ? to adore Him as my very own Self? Then I carry the ~temple~ with me every moment
    of every day no matter where I put my feet.

    praṇām
    I wonder the same thing. I think there is a 3rd way personally.

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    Re: Loving God - Two ways

    Vannakkam: I have always thought there were a lot of ways to live God.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Loving God - Two ways

    Hari OM

    Namaste,

    With what Believer shares, "the other with a jholi that he thinks has been filled with the Lord's bounty and he thanks Him for that." and through realizing more and more what Yajvan shares, "adore Him as my very own Self? Then I carry the ~temple~ with me every moment of every day no matter where I put my feet." the way of Loving God with this, at most visceral and true level, becomes more often.

    Perhaps with the grace of the Absolute, gifted to us Sadhana, the offerings on HDF being found by others, the writings shared within HDF library, more of the portions described by Believer, in first observation, will find a degree of realization described by Yajvan, and see that they have always been filled with the Lord's bounty and be thankful for this, on more and more frequent basis. I do hope for this to become true. Very, very much.

    Om Shanti

    FFTW




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    Re: Loving God - Two ways


    namaste everyone.

    Two common words used in Sanskrit in connection with prayer are stotram, shlokam.

    • The word stotram means a song of praise, hymn on the deity. It has its origins in the Rig Veda:
    stotram indrAya gAyata--Sing the praise to Indra, RV 8.21a

    • The word shlokam which means 'verse' on the other hand, originated in shokam--sorrow! The world's first shlokam was composed extempore by sage VAlmIki, author of the RAmAyaNam.

    VAlmIki maharShi goes to River Tamasa for a bath and sees a couple of birds, of which a hunter kills one. VAlmIki unintentionally utters a shlokam--poem, which is rich in grammar and new in metre, of which he is very much confused as to why such a poem has come from his tongue. BrahmA, the presiding deity of letters appears and ordains VAlmIki to author RAmAyaNam, excellent epic of RAma, for which purpose alone he gave such divine meter and grammar to him.
    http://valmikiramayan.net/bala/sarga2/bala_2_frame.htm


    Thus, the way I love God depends on whether I chant a shlokam or sing a stotram! Even Adi ShankarAchArya did both:

    • His bhavAnI aShTakam laments how an illiterate and indulgent vagabond realizes the futility of his life and surrenders to Goddess BhavAnI for refuge and liberation from his sorrow:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...1&postcount=10

    • His gaNesha pancharatnam, on the other hand, is a short stotram, sings the praise of God GaNesha, thus:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...08&postcount=7

    • There is nothing wrong or lacking on our part to ask favours of a deity. After all, who else can we resort to for such favours? Such prayer is of the kind kAmyArtha prArthana--prayer for fulfilment of personal wishes. Here is how we can pray to Goddess LakShmI for favours using the famous shlokam called mahAlakShmI stuti:

    Adi lakShmI namastestu para-brahma svarUpiNI |
    yasho dehi danam dehi sarva kAmascha dehi may ||


    "Salutations to Adi LakShmI, who is of the form of Parabrahman;
    give me fame, give me wealth, and fulfil all my desires."

    Notice how the devotee in this verse praises the deity and seeks favours: best of both worlds!

    ...and the list goes on!
    http://stotraratna.sathyasaibababrotherhood.org/g43.htm

    • Prayers that seek the welfare of the world in general are of the kind loka-kShema-prarthanA. The famouse lokAsamasta sukhino bhavantu | AUM shAnti shAnti shAntiH--"May all the world be happy and may there be peace"--is a prayer of this kind.

    • The gAyatrI mantra, on the other hand is a prayer for increased awareness of the Self, and is of the kind AtmArtha prArthanA.

    • How we seek to relate to a deity and love him/her is known by the name bhakti-bhAvam--devotional relationship. Hinduism permits several bhakti bhAvas, so I can relate to a deity in the

    dAsya bhAvam--where I am the servant and he/she is the master;
    nAyakI/nAyakI bhAvam--where I am the wife and he is the husband or vice versa with a female deity;
    sakhin/sakhI bhAvam--where the deity is my boy/girl friend;
    mitra bhAvam--where the deity is my close friend,
    vAtsalya bhAvam--where I love the deity as a child or parent.

    Other types of relationship are also possible.

    Finally, for those who belong to the tradition of Advaita, the devotee should cultivate the bhAvam of the deity being none other than the Self and all the prayers and pujas offered to her/him are only to the Self.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: Loving God - Two ways

    Namaste Saidevo,

    Thanks for taking the time to provide so much information and your POV. Just to help me understand some things, if you would indulge me a bit;
    In the story of Pandit Sudama going to Shri Krishan for help, no petitionary words were spoken, or requests made for help. But the Lord knew what he needed and bestowed it upon Sudama's family per their karma. Can we conclude that He knows our needs and desires and gives things to us per our karma and per His timetable, without our asking for it? Or am I missing something here?

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Here is how we can pray to Goddess LakShmI for favours using the famous shlokam called mahAlakShmI stuti:

    Adi lakShmI namastestu para-brahma svarUpiNI |
    yasho dehi danam dehi sarva kAmascha dehi may ||


    "Salutations to Adi LakShmI, who is of the form of Parabrahman;
    give me fame, give me wealth, and fulfil all my desires."

    Notice how the devotee in this verse praises the deity and seeks favours: best of both worlds!

    ...and the list goes on!
    I don't mean any disrespect for the above shaloka, or the shaloka writer or to you, but it seems that anything written in the form a Sanskrit verse becomes sacred over time. I want to believe the above shaloka, but I also want to reconcile it with the situation in the Pandit Sudama and Shri Krishan meeting. Should anything presented as a Sanskrit verse be accepted at face value, or is there any room to discuss it in light of the above incident for further clarification? Do we really have to ask for things to be given to us, or are they given to us automatically at the right time per our karma, as the Lord already knows what is in our thoughts, what is it that we need and what is in our best interest. It is just a confusion in my simple mind which is resisting the thought of having to beg.

    Pranam.

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    Re: Loving God - Two ways

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste Saidevo,
    Do we really have to ask for things to be given to us, or aare they given to us automatically at the right time per our karma,s the Lord already knows what is in our thoughts, what is it that we need and what is in our best interest. It is just a confusion in my simple mind which is resisting the thought of having to beg.
    Namaste Believer,

    Excellent statement,just because it"s frankness and honesty of thought.I will give you one true story and then explain few lines about it.

    Sanatan Goswami and Roop Goswami(younger) were brothers and famous Goswamis of Vrindavan and considered among highest among highest devotees,who happened to be Gurus of MEERA.

    Both brothers used to stay in brijdhama separately in their huts.Roop Goswami was very surrender soul with great devotionto Lord Krishna and he firmly convinced that even a leaf doesn"t sway withoud Lord"s wish,he understand the needs of everybody ,even tiniest bacteria and provide their all needs.so he was devoting all his times worshipping/japa/dhyana/teaching to devotees without bothering for even food.During Night he used to get food,clothes at regular interval out side his huts and KNEW that sRIKRISHNA
    gIVES him for his requirement.Oneday Sanatan Goswami ji knew it in meditation and came angry to Roop and aksed since Lord has given him hands,legs,power,why he is not making its use for his food and giving his beloved Krishna the pain for bringing the food.

    To conclude.its entirely Bhava.it depends upon the current bhava/depth and quality of devotion you are going with.Even Sri Ramanuj sampradaya has 2 class according to the type of dependence on lord.

    1- marjarh like(like cat) Mother cat takes his kids with his teeth from places to places.its total dependence,completely surrender fro everything,lord is like mother cat.

    2-banara like(monkey) like monkey kids his both hands and legs to hold the mother monkey from down and mother monkeys go places.

    Once you love your beloved and think him as your very own-like parents,husband,your dependence will and thought will change.

    Last thing,you says he will automatically understand your thought and do the need ful.But this is not right way.Many times we think and wish absurd thoughts,with greed,lust,anger,to harm others.So will lord fulfill those wishes automatically. Its the earnest wishes which we genuinely long for and that too is actually good for us and others in the vision of Lord,that will be granted to us.

    Of course we dont have to open our mouth or beg in front of deity only.Its again our thought,deep,conscious and honest thought which will be granted.we dont have to go a temple.

    WHEN AN ATHEIST"S WISH WILL BE FULFILLED IF LORD FIND IT GENUINE.SO WHERE IS THE QUESTION OF BEGGING???

    Its another thing that a Devotee shouldn"t beg all trivial things to lord as it will ultimately destroy his devotion,as he will start judging the god"s capability and ultimately loose the very faith of Existence of the lord.

    Jayaguru
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

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    Re: Loving God - Two ways

    namaste Believer.

    I understand and appreciate your point as regards the purpose and manner of prayer. Since you talked in the OP that people asking favours from a deity in their prayers are like having the relationship of a beggar, I had to point out that it is one--perhaps the most common--method of prayer which is also recognized in our Hindu texts. I don't mind discussing what I could in detail vis-a-vis what you provide, so there is no disrespect involved--so long as we can express ourselves civilly.

    • Your point of the SudhAma-KRShNa episode is well taken, but in Hindu Dharma, there is no single set of directives that must suit everyone at different levels.

    The origin of seeking favours from the deities using words such as dehi--(please) give me, is in the Vedas:

    tejosi tejo mayi dehi vIryamasi vIryam mayi dehi |
    balamasi balam mayi dehi ojosi ojo mayi dehi ||

    --shukla yajur veda saMhitA 19.9

    "You are brilliant, give me that brilliance; you are powerful, give me that power!
    You are strong, give me that strength; and you are vitality, give me that vitality!"

    • When the taittirIya saMhitA of the KRShNa-yajur-veda originated, RShi YAjnavalkya was a disillusioned pupil of his guru VaishampAyana, so he did tapas towards SUryadeva--sun god, asking the god to be his guru. Pleased by his penance, SUryadeva descended in the form of a horse and revealed a new form of Veda which became the Shukla-yajur-veda. SUrya directed YAjnavalkya to pray to Goddess SarasvatI to improve his memory of the Veda. In his sarasvatI stuti, YAjnavalkya prays thus, among seeking other things:

    jnAnam dehi smRutam dehi vidyAm vidyAdhidevate |
    pratiShThAm kavitAm dehi shaktim siShya prabhodinIm ||


    "I beseech you DevI to grant me jnAnam--spiritual knowledge, smRuti--memory, vidyA--worldly knowledge, praTiShTA--distinction, kavitA-shakti--power to compose poetry, capacity to convince pupils and capability to produce excellent writings of granthas--books. Side by side, provide me competent shiShyas--disciples.

    • Among the concluding lines of the famous Adiya-hRudayam stotra, taught to shrI RAma by Agastya maharShi, are these lines (VAlmIki rAmAyaNam, yuddha kANDam 107):

    bhAno bhAskara mArthANDa chanda rasmai divAkara |
    Ayur Arogyam aishvaryam vidyAm dehi namostute ||


    He who breaks the morn,
    He who berings light to the world,
    He who brings heat tio the world,
    He who has scorching rays,
    And he who is the maker of the day,
    Give me long life,
    Health, intelligence and wealth.

    From the upaniShads (which form the jnAna-kANDam of the Vedas):

    aum namo bhagavatyannapUrNe mamabhilAShitam annam dehi svAha
    "Salutation, O divine Annapurna, vouchsafe the food I desire".
    --annapUrNa upaniShad

    na duHkhena vinA saukhyaM dR^ishyate sarvadehinAm |
    duHkhaM tanmAtrakaM j~neyaM sukhamAnantyam-uttamam || 7.118 ||


    "Without sorrow/pain, no welfare is seen, so give me everything!
    For, sorrow is merely that, while supreme happiness could be understood to be infinite."

    • I-20: O Jatavedas, shine brilliantly in order to destroy the sins connected with me. Confer on me enjoyments of various kinds including cattle. Give me sustenance and longevity and appoint a suitable dwelling for me in any direction."
    --mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad

    The mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad puts the advaitic unity of Brahman as everything on the one hand and the dvaitic diversity it manifests as the other, in the proper perspecive when it says it its very opening lines:

    "Hari Om ! May Mitra, Varuna, Aryaman, Indra, Brihaspati
    And all-pervading Vishnu be propitious to us
    And grant us welfare and bliss.
    I bow down to Brahman in reverence."

    When God is the all-giver (although he resides within everything he has manifested himself as), it is in order, IMO, that we as seekers of truth at various levels, ask for our interim and ultimate needs in our prayers to him.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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