Lets Meditate The Right Way

[silence_speaks]

Dear Friends,
Here is something we have all agreed:

" There is Distraction. Distraction is "Mind is here", and "It wants to be elsewhere" ... I have made it the most generic definition and simplified it. "

And then, the usual approach to tackle this is: Lets therefore try a "Sadhana", a "Method". There are various kinds of Sadhana's , Meditation "Techniques". Japa , Observing Thoughts, Observing breath etc. These are beautiful methods. I am not denying the methods. All I am saying is this approach has a flaw.

I request you to see what I say now with an open mind. All Sadhanas operate with the idea: Mind is distracted, so whenever it "Goes There", "I bring it back Here".

Please see this ... Its at once obvious for Japa / Observing Breath. Lets include the other cases :

Case Study 2: Living in the Present Moment

Suppose I am living in the present moment. What is the "Effort here" ? [Hey I am not suggesting effortlessness as many modern day gurus do ... neither am i advocating that sadhana is not required. Sadhana is a must. We will talk a little later. ] .So whats the effort here ?
The mind is getting involved in the "Thought world", I "Drag it to the present moment". Now it gets involved, now again i drag it to the present moment. I can use observing breath as an aid.
So effort is : Its "getting into thought world" , in other words: getting "Distracted", we bring it back.
So Living in present moment is also "Whenever mind gets distracted, bring it back". Same type of sadhana.

Case 3: Observing Thoughts:

Same case again. Whenever we become "involved in the thought world", bring it back to the witness state.

These are all the sadhanas we have. They are all good ... and they operate with the law:
"Whenever the mind goes away, bring it back" ... "Whenever there is distraction, bring back the mind".

So the mind , as our friends observed :

"

The mind is like an annoying toddler" .... Necromancer
"Yet I can inform the reader this - the mind does not respond favorably ( in kali yuga) to high levels of control" ...Yajvan

This situation is a consequence of the approach in these sadhanas :namely, "Whenever the mind goes out, bring it back."

My Fundamental Question ... which we will come back to ... is
"When mind goes out, we bring back, it goes out again, we bring it back again and so on ... when this is what we are doing ...
Do you correct the reason why this mind is going out ?
or keep bringing it back whenever it goes out ?

Which is more important ? Correct the reason mind is going out, so that when i put it here, it remains here ? Or keep bringing it back whenever it goes out. Of course we need all these sadhanas. But don't you see [if you are still with an open mind] which is more important ? If I correct the reason why its going out... i bring it back and it shoud "BE"... Please ponder. "


I will continue ... For now I just want you to spend some time with what I said, giving me the benefit of doubt ... By giving me the benefit of doubt i mean, you should be ready to "See" what I am saying and not "Dismiss" it beforehand with the ideas like: I already know what he is saying / He cannot say anything new / He is immature etc ... these conclusions if you can avoid and just see what I am saying ... and inquire along my lines ... perhaps we can come up with something interesting.

[silence_speaks]

praNAm

Nice thread. I collected these keywords from each of you above:

interest, distraction, nectar, thoughts, surrender

interest = IN KRshNa
distraction = TOWARDS KRshNa
nectar = ABOUT KRshNa
next nectar = FOR KRshNa
thoughts = OF KRshNa
surrender = TO KRshNa
samadhi = IN KRshNa

I am either IN samAdhi or NOT. So there are only TWO possible states.

Sometimes the Self is ONE without knowing it, so it is as if there is NONE, but sometimes the Self is TWO. Who can stop the Self from being TWO? We bypass the seer-seen-sought exercises and just live with each other.

Who can convince the Self they are in mAyA just because they are TWO?
Who can stop the Self from adoring the Beloved?
Who can detain the Self from Govardhan ParikramA, be it in bhUlok VRndAvan, Goloka VRndAvan or mAnas-VRndAvan?
Who can deny the Self the joy of offering a zillion praNAms to the entire bhakta vRndA, and to the entire
creation?
Who can tell the Self dancing and singing in kirtan is mAyA?

QUESTION: Can you? If yes, then who are you [in tattva] ?
---------

So what am I doing on HDF? I am IN samAdhi. The wierdest threads on HDF can be KRshNa these days. Scary. Yes, HDF is a once-a-day distraction, certainly - that is a very high frequency. A dangerous one, comes along with heavy dependance on material resources such as electricity, electronic equipment and software, but more significantly, possible addiction to e-satsang. Well, then this is just a crude material
manifestation of the Gopis stealing out of the house to meet Shri KRshNa, since He is HDF too!
HDF by itself is a sahasramUrti sahasrAksha sahasrapAda sahasra-thread NArAyaNa. Thanks Satay.

So what is NON-samAdhi? When the ego called KAliyA shows His poisonous hoods.
What do you do then? Ask KRshNa to dance on the hoods and make KAliyA go away and never be seen in the Yamuna.

Please ignore if that was too boring or too much out of line.

_/\_

Dear smaranam,
Namasthe _/\_! While I chose to discuss your point at the last.
What ever I said above applies 100% to your point as well.
Your sadhana is like "Whenever Ego raises, you involve Sri Krishna and Sri Krishna dances on the hoods of ego to subdue it"
But once thats done, ego raises agian...
so this goes on ...

you do it now, it raises again ... so this process goes on ... So now my above answer applies to your point as well.
And I know you seem to come from a "Bhakti" perspective. So here is my question to you:

How do you ensure that your mind is merged in Sri Krishna and does not come out again at all ?

Is there such a possibility ? Please question. I'll intentionally keep discussions with you on a slightly parallel track.

Love!
Silence

[Necromancer]

Namaste.

Thank you for your enlightening response.

In this thread, you have received feedback from three different schools of thought.

There is Yajvan, a Sanskrit Scholar, there is Smaranam, a Hare Krishna devotee and there is myself, a Hatha Yoga/Meditation teacher.

What is the point of bringing the mind 'back from somewhere'? to 'another place of somewhere?'

It all has to do with focus or 'one-pointedness' of mind and thought.

I shall quote the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali...better yet, I shall just post this link:
http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-13032.htm

That says it all much better than I could.

Granted, my methods are basically 'beginner level meditation' instructions, but that's the way I learned it.

Even though concentration isn't the same as meditation, one can lead to the other.

The first practice I ever learned was Trataka. This helped to 'prime' me and pave the way for meditation.

From there, I went on to study Patanjali and stuck with that method ever since.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[silence_speaks]

Dear Necromancer,
Namasthe!

Take the Trataka practise. Its a very useful practice. I am not saying its not useful.We will go slowly, there is no hurry.
Now here is my question... why do you need such a practice.
Please give a short answer .

Love!
Silence

[Necromancer]

Dear Necromancer,
Namasthe!

Take the Trataka practise. Its a very useful practice. I am not saying its not useful.We will go slowly, there is no hurry.
Now here is my question... why do you need such a practice.
Please give a short answer .

Love!
Silence

Namaste.

The realisation of Brahman requires you to become immersed in that 'space in between thoughts' or within the 'absence of thought'.

The goal of Trataka is to be absorbed in dharana. When one is totally absorbed in dharana, reaching altered states of consciousness is much easier than if you have a million thoughts and desires floating around in your head.

Short enough?

Aum Namah Shivaya

[silence_speaks]

Namaste.

The realisation of Brahman requires you to become immersed in that 'space in between thoughts' or within the 'absence of thought'.

The goal of Trataka is to be absorbed in dharana. When one is totally absorbed in dharana, reaching altered states of consciousness is much easier than if you have a million thoughts and desires floating around in your head.

Short enough?

Aum Namah Shivaya

Dear Necromancer,
Namasthe!
Some times short answers give more clarity than a long answer, that's why I requested for a short answer and this answer of yours gives me very good understanding of your standpoint. Please note , we are not debating here. We are simply " seeing " a few points together. If you have the patience to participate, we can mutually exchange something.

So here is another question: So you practise dharana, mind is settled. Does it remain like that or does it run into desires etc again ?

Again a short answer is appreciated

Love!
Silence

[Necromancer]

Dear Necromancer,
Namasthe!
Some times short answers give more clarity than a long answer, that's why I requested for a short answer and this answer of yours gives me very good understanding of your standpoint. Please note , we are not debating here. We are simply " seeing " a few points together. If you have the patience to participate, we can mutually exchange something.

So here is another question: So you practise dharana, mind is settled. Does it remain like that or does it run into desires etc again ?

Again a short answer is appreciated

Love!
Silence

Namaste.

For me, it returns to thoughts/desires again, because I am not fully established in Nirvikalpa Samadhi yet.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[smaranam]

Namaste

Thanks for spending time on / attending to this KRshNamay post.

Your sadhana is like "Whenever Ego raises, you involve Sri Krishna and Sri Krishna dances on the hoods of ego to subdue it"
But once thats done, ego raises agian... so this goes on ...

How do you ensure that your mind is merged in Sri Krishna and does not come out again at all ? Is there such a possibility ?

Well, kAliyA leaves the yamuna for good. So that must apply to the final dance, not interim.


Short answer: The real core sAdhanA is / has been
1. Talk to Shri KRshNa (He is my Guru) (or He will talk to point something out if I don't)
2. To keep His message in Bhagavad Gita alive. It has been seived seived seived for years, enough to catch the culprit on the spot - upto chapter and verse.
3. ArchanA also helps tremendously with discipline. Your world revolves around Him not just in the mAnas-sky but hands-on. Hardly any room is left for ego till it gets suffocated and dies. (My hunger, my taste, my schedule, my sleep, my convenience, my TV serial, my picnic, all on my terms. NO. substitute my with HIS)
----------------

Experience tells me how rapidly things, priorities spill in the background as the chariot races forward. Things that mattered just last month or last year or last quarter, do not matter at all any more! The mind is at His Lotus Feet. First it loved to wander but always holding His hand. He allowed it. Then later it was ashamed that Govinda should have to babysit like this. The mind matured - as the AtmA watched - first the mind wants to share every silly things with the Sakhis. Then it gives that up too.

"I am a devotee" is also an ego that has fallen into the past. Sankalpa is dying one by one. Really. I have full faith in this Lotus-eyed MAdhav. There is hardly any me and you here. Yet, occasionally He asks "What do you want? ask." In the past I would say "Just You" and HE said "But you already have ME" , and of course "don't ever let me forget You across lifetimes no matter what" - a prayer.
This time I said, lets erradicate this [independance of] manas-buddhi that wants to think despite all your directions, and yet, may I never ever forget You (vismaraN). Please make that happen - I don't know how.

Regarding ensuring KRshNa-consciousness 24 X 7, all I can say without any ahamkaar trust me, is - I don't do anything to ensure. He is just there. In the past when asked "Will You ever leave?" He says "I can't, but also don't want to"
It is merely a question of you sincerely wanting vikArs to die. He will make it happen the next second. (have experienced this too, but the list has not been fully ticked off yet )

NAm jap and all navadh bhakti sAdhanA limbs are very effective (this is my experience too) but we can let people see for themselves, so not included here.

So KEY: Sincerity - I think, but look forward to your input.

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

[silence_speaks]

Namaste.

For me, it returns to thoughts/desires again, because I am not fully established in Nirvikalpa Samadhi yet.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Dear Nacromancer,
So this was my original question...

Why does it return to thoughts / desires ?

What is your approach ? Do you first "FIX" the reason why its going to thoughts/desires
or do you practice dharana ?

Please understand the difference.

Its like a room ... i come home one day to see my room is full of rain water. I use a nice broom to clean the room.
next day, i return and again the room is full of water.
i clean it again.
what do i need to fix first?
What is the most important fix for me ?
yes its important to clean the room ...
but ...
first step : identify the leaks ... fix them .
fix the leaks
and then once you clean the room, it remains clean.

Please ponder.

Love!
Silence

[silence_speaks]

Dear Smaranam,

his is as long as the sAdhak "sits on it" All I have to do is request KRshNa - to make things go away (not subdue) one by one by one.

Two questions :
1. So have you asked ? Why has it not yet happened then ?
2. Why one by one ... why not all at once ?

Love!
Silence