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Thread: Thought on thoughts

  1. #1

    Thought on thoughts

    Hello people..

    just been having some serious thinking on our thoughts. it also helped that have been reading material on similar theme.

    just a brief background.. have not been religious till about some time ( still not ritualistic) but more agnostic. the doubts and questions still remain. i think kind of come with the package.

    but lately have been doing Shiva japa and some other mantras.

    I assume all or some of you must be doing your prayers quietly and feel that God/Brahman/Paramatma can listen to your prayers/mantras etc and respond back. We do thank God when things go as we wish they should.

    Which means that on a more physical level, our thoughts are being transmitted and being heard out there in the universe.

    Which brings to what i have been thinking. we keep getting thoughts all the time, good or bad. some are more persistent. persistent thoughts are the ones where consciously or sub consciously our focus is more, like a prayer or reciting a mantra.

    so do these thoughts too get transmitted in the universe ( much like our prayers) and heard out and acted upon? so should there be more moderation on what we think? like its said in Bhagwad Gita that thought is also part of performing action so its karmic?

    thanks for your patience.

    love, peace & a goodlife to all

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    Re: Thought on thoughts

    Hi Goodlife
    In my experience thoughts are transmitted through the most sophisticated instrument on earth... the human brain. I liken the brain to a radio, if we sit in a room with other people we will pick up on their conversations, as if speach is the transmitter and brain the receiver.

    Voice is noise, which is sound waves.

    Consequently Karma can be through speach. We can make people act and find we act ourselves based on what we hear. Just to throw a couple more thoughts into the pot, it may explain the power of positive thinking and that we should not speak badly of people or things.

    That is an interesting insight you share.
    Last edited by Onkara; 08 October 2009 at 10:47 AM.

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    Re: Thought on thoughts

    namaste goodlife.

    Thoughts--their ramifications and repercussions, is a beautiful subject for discussion, but there is so much to discuss, with varying points of view.

    According to Theosophy (and possibly Buddhism--I'm not much familiar with it), thoughts originate in our mental body, propagate formlessly (arUpa) or formfully (rUpa) in the subplanes of the mental world (or plane), descend to the astral world assuming the colors of their emotions and then finally reach the physical brain to be channelized into action. The path of a thought is always mano-vAk-kAyam--mind-word-action, so it is not that the human, physical brain thinks out thoughts and propagates them into outer space. Every physical happening has already happened at the astral and mental levels. Every physical discovery and invention has already been done at these levels.

    Now the question is: what causes the mind (or the mental body) to think? Hindu scriptures say that the human mind is of four parts: buddhi-manas-chitta-ahamkAra. buddhi is the intution of wisdom--something that approves or warns us when we start thinking out; manas is the sensory, processing mind; chitta is the hard-disk or the storage of vAsanas--impressions; and ahamkAra is the feeling and false ego of 'I'-ness. (More on this at http://www.swamij.com/fourfunctionsmind.htm)

    So, it is the chitta that causes our thoughts that are processed by our manas under the supervision of buddhi to be acted upon by the ahamkAra. Since thoughts are perennial, their impressions are always stored on the chitta over incarnations.

    Is it possible to 'erase' the bad impressions in the chitta, retaining only the good ones? The word 'vAsana' has the clue: although we understand the term vAsana as impressions (something recorded), it is more associated with smell--and our nose--than with any other sense. Smell is nothing but vibration, so it is possible to control further accumulation of and destroy exising bad impressions by controlling our breath. Our scriptures say that manas is nothing but oscillation of prANa, and breathing is the way prANa acts on our personal self.

    Quote Originally Posted by goodlife View Post
    I assume all or some of you must be doing your prayers quietly and feel that God/Brahman/Paramatma can listen to your prayers/mantras etc and respond back. We do thank God when things go as we wish they should.
    Although we have a strong impression of separation when we pray to God--he is the master, we're just the unfortunate soul, etc.,etc.--prayers are only means of purification of our own self. By prayer and meditation we increase our receiver-capacity (not the transmitter-capacity) so we can pick up more and more of the light of Atman/Self immanent in us. The light of that Atman is the grace of God that answers our prayers.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: Thought on thoughts

    Vanakkam, Namaste

    I'm thinking about thoughts. Definitely not to be underestimated, as per this quote on ahimsa:

    "Be non-violent in thoughts, words, and action."

    Thoughts are the originators of all words, and action. Nothing happens without thoughts. Just think, all the buildings, all the art, all the technology ... each and every one of them originated within someone's head.

    I also read somewhere (point made here) that far less than one percent of all thoughts are original thoughts, which means the rest is regurgitation, or a slight change in wording from someone else's.

    We also think in languages. I think in English. When someone says they know other languages, ask them if they can 'think' in that language. When you are forming clear thoughts you use your native language primarily. That is why many people speak with little fluency in second, third languages, because the inner workings are busy translating.

    Yes, Goodlife, I believe the Gods hear you. This is called clairaudience, and if anyone would have that siddhi, it would be God. Some sages also have that siddhi, as do people who are really well connected, like spouses. (It must be rather fascinating sitting with a sage who answers your questions, before they turn into words.) When someone says, "That's just what I was thinking," its clairaudience, even though the individual often doesn't recognise it as such.

    These are just my ideas, and as usual tending to lean towards the mystical side of things.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Thought on thoughts

    It would be interesting to explore the subject of thoughts with some lateral thinking. What will happen in the hypothetical scenario described below?

    Humanity is suddenly blessed with the power of mind-reading. Everyone instantly knows the thoughts of every other person he/she comes in contact with, even through a visual on the TV or a photograph. The policeman knows the mind of the thief, the public about the mind of the policeman and his political bosses; the father and son, mother and daughter know each other at a deeper, mental level; I know you and you know me and we both owe to each other...

    • will the world be a better or worse place when everyone can afford such power?

    • will this power be deterrent so people regulate and purify their thoughts, or could it be destructive?

    • is the great wall of the mind there for personal separation and security? would breaking it lead to better spiritual progress or chaos?

    • what would the hardcore politicians, businessmen, scientists do with such power?

    • what about children, how would this power affect them?
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: Thought on thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    thoughts originate in our mental body, propagate formlessly (arUpa) or formfully (rUpa) in the subplanes of the mental world (or plane), descend to the astral world assuming the colors of their emotions and then finally reach the physical brain to be channelized into action. The path of a thought is always mano-vAk-kAyam--mind-word-action, so it is not that the human, physical brain thinks out thoughts and propagates them into outer space.
    Although we have a strong impression of separation when we pray to God--he is the master, we're just the unfortunate soul, etc.,etc.--prayers are only means of purification of our own self. By prayer and meditation we increase our receiver-capacity (not the transmitter-capacity) so we can pick up more and more of the light of Atman/Self immanent in us. The light of that Atman is the grace of God that answers our prayers.
    Very good explanation !

    "I" which I imagine as "I" is nothing but a bundle of thoughts. Our thoughts have the power of creation as this world has arisen from His thoughts. All our thoughts are actually connected to the Source of all thoughts ... we have just to realise it.

    We must change our thought to bring changes within us and also outside us. It is not that no one is listening to our prayers but that is not outside somewhere in space ... He is sitting right in our hearts. We must look within more seriously & sincerely & have unfailing faith Him.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Thought on thoughts

    namaste Devotee.

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    It is not that no one is listening to our prayers but that is not outside somewhere in space ... He is sitting right in our hearts. We must look within more seriously & sincerely & have unfailing faith Him.
    That is the power of sanAtana dharma: it's at once a religion and a science. When you say that God is listening to our prayers, it's a faith, a religion; when you say that, that God is not a person residing in the heaven but one who resides in our hearts, the religion moves away from being personal and becomes more refined and universal.

    And when you say that it's all Brahman/Atman/Self (who is essentially the Cosmic Consciousness), and that we and the world are just appearances, dreams and thoughts of that Brahman indulging in its lIlA--pastime, it's pure, holistic, impersonal, empirical science as well as high philosophy.

    We have all the three POVs, which is why our dharma is sanAtana. And we also say that all the POVs are correct within their own realms of reality.

    To use your favourite POV, when we say that "God's in his heaven and all's right with the world", we live in the jAgrat--waking state; when we say that God's inside the heart, so meditate and dream about him cultivating good thoughts, we live in the svapna--dream state; when we say that God is the be-all and end-all Brahman, we realize it--albeit unknowingly--in the suShupti--deep sleep state every day, and long to experience the turIya--fourth state where that absolute knowledge--peace--bliss of Self-Realization stays within our awareness.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: Thought on thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    .

    Thoughts--their ramifications and repercussions, is a beautiful subject for discussion, but there is so much to discuss, with varying points of view.

    Now the question is: what causes the mind (or the mental body) to think? Hindu scriptures say that the human mind is of four parts: buddhi-manas-chitta-ahamkAra. buddhi is the intution of wisdom--something that approves or warns us when we start thinking out; manas is the sensory, processing mind; chitta is the hard-disk or the storage of vAsanas--impressions; and ahamkAra is the feeling and false ego of 'I'-ness.
    So, it is the chitta that causes our thoughts that are processed by our manas under the supervision of buddhi to be acted upon by the ahamkAra. Since thoughts are perennial, their impressions are always stored on the chitta over incarnations.
    .
    I have been researching on yoga literature and connected scripture, for awhile now and done lots of thinking on chitta and manas. IMHO, thinking or contemplation is done by the jiva, antehkarana( consisting of mans,chitta, budhhi and ahamkara), is its immediate resource. I only differ here that manas is processing mind. processing is done by jiva itself. manas is only a stack pointer depending on its attachment with a particular sensory organ at any instant, it takes you to chitta. Depending upon the state of guna ( sattivic,rajas or tamas), the jiva is at that moment, the chitta presents those related experiences to contemplate or if its a new experience it will record it.
    I will again give the crude example of a rose being watched by you sitting in the garden,( if it is sun rise, you may always be in sattivic state and that's why meditation etc are recommended during this time) You will appreciate its beauty and the creator.
    if you are in rajas state you might get reminded of your beloved and in tamas state you might find the neighbor's roses prettier and might think of sacking the gardener.
    now comes the question, where do the emotions reside, when you get angry, or become jealous or fearful or all those opposites. manas is connected with prana and prana works through the chakras the lower three chakras contain these emotional state, the lowest contain the most basic instinct that is procreation or sexual desires.
    Hope i have not created more confusion, but then confusion creats fusion of ideas.

  9. #9

    Re: Thought on thoughts

    Hi

    Thanks everyone for taking out time to reply.

    I'd try to list what has been on my mind:

    1. do the prayers while doing in mind really get heard out? ( please note am using prayer because that's what most people would connect with one talking about being heard)

    2. if its true that prayers are heard out and answered, consequently our other thoughts too must be being heard out and responded.

    3. if our thoughts are being heard out, which are the ones which do and which are the ones which dont. Does it effectively mean that we can actually turn around our lives just by the 'train of our thoughts'?

    4. Does it thus mean too that we are constantly on radar of a higher receiver and thus in a constant flux to choose and discard lest we be found out?

    5. where exactly are these thoughts coming from and who is thinking? is it the brain or is it something else. if its the brain then who is reading those thoughts and is the brain in under our control thus we becoming just passive emitters of those thoughts?

    thanks for your patience.

    love, peace & a goodlife to all

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    Re: Thought on thoughts

    Namaste goodlife:

    Here are the answers as per what I have been taught on the subject. it is somewhat complicated. You're kind of in the area of spiritual psychology.

    1. Yes the prayers are being heard. Whether you think of it in a dualist, or oneness way is irrelevant. The Gods exist inside you and sort of outside you simultaneously. There are 3 levels of mind: instinctive, intellectual, and superconscious. Thoughts arise in the intellectual mind, and the answers are in the superconscious (sometimes called intuitive) mind. So you yourself are answering your own questions. But at this point in time in our limited perspective of things, it is beneficial to separate the superconscious mind from the thinking mind, and see it as God over there. Later, after much meditation, and sadhana, the yogi can go directly to the inner temple. But for now, bhakti yoga is best.

    2. Just becasue thoughts are heard doesn't mean there has to be a response. If you think, "that scenery is nice" there is no need for a response. However, all thoughts make impressions in the clay like mold we term the sunconscious mind. That would be the reason you might return to that same bit of scenery later in life. "I remember this positive experience, and would like to go back."

    3. Yes, thinking can be controlled with practice. Its called will power. There is no need to go to a violent movie. There is no need to answer the phone. You can, with practise, control your own lines of thinking, by distracting yourself. That is why, within the active practice of Hinduism, discipline is stressed. You can train your own mind. And of course the more positive stuff you can put into it, the more positive the subconscious becomes. By positive, I mean all the lighter emotions like joy, contentment.

    4. Yes, but why are we diligent? There is no "God who punishes" if he finds us out. We are on the path, by conscious choice. We are striving to become better people. Once you have a personal relationship through bhakti, for example, God or Gods will do things for you in unseen ways. So in this way Ganesha is 'watching over you' as a benevolent God. This process is demonstrated by his noose, and his goad. He used the goad to push you down the dharmic path, and his noose to hold you back from adharmic path.

    5. These thoughts arise in the substratum of the intellectual mind. One of the goals of meditation is to be free of thoughts. Experience that emptiness that is at the same time the cause everything. Easier said than done. It is a knack to 'just let thoughts pass' and not stop them as your awareness flows through that particular area. If you consciously try to stop a certain negative thought, your mind may very well rebel against itself, and have that thought stick around. This is a good thing, if it is the thought of "Aum Namasivaya`and all the commotations that brings up.

    Regardless, this all takes practise, and time. Patience with your self helps a lot.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 09 October 2009 at 10:20 AM.

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