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Thread: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

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    Exclamation Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste

    In another thread I was unable to publish this post because that thread is now closed. There my first post was post #20, and now let me continue from post #87 which was my last post in that thread:

    The purpose of this and the previous post is to show whether the definition of the word "demigod" in the dictionary is supported by the scriptures. Here I will quote the dictionary on "demigod" again:

    a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity ...
    a mortal raised to divine rank
    The main point of my previous post was to show subordinate status which the jiva souls (including devas because they are these jiva souls) have in comparison with the One God, Supreme God.
    What follows are a few examples from the scriptures about One God who is declared as chief among all other gods.
    Svetasvatara Upanishad 6.7 says:

    tam īśvarāṇāṃ paramaṃ maheśvaraṃ taṃ devatānāṃ paramaṃ ca daivatam
    patiṃ patīnāṃ paramaṃ parastād vidāma devaṃ bhuvaneśam īḍyam

    "Let us know that highest great lord of lords, the highest deity of deities, the master of masters, the highest above, as god, the lord of the world, the adorable."

    Here we have clearly stated that there is a God who is the highest great lord of lords, and the highest deity (God) among other deities or gods (devatānāṃ). This is further confirmed in the following verse 6.8: na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate "no one is greater than Him or equal to Him". So it must be that there is a God who is lord even of other gods!
    Maha Narayana Upanishad (translation by Swami Vimalananda with English and Sanskrit) explicitly says that Lord Vishnu is chief among all other gods (devas):

    Śrīrmē bhajatu alakṣmīrmē naśyatu. Viṣṇumukhā vai
    Dēvā
    śchandōbhirimāĕnllōkānanapajayyamabhyajayan

    "May Sri favour me. May Alakshmi connected with me and mine be destroyed. The gods having Vishnu for their chief ..."
    (Maha Narayana Upanishad I-48)

    This verse also appears in Taittiriya Aranyaka 10-1-10.
    Is there anything more explicit and clearer than the two shruti verses above?
    "Let us know that highest great lord of lords, the highest deity of deities ..." and "The gods having Vishnu for their chief"

    If we assume that all the gods have the same status and that no chief is amongst them then the above two verses do not make sense at all. These verses must make sense!

    This is also confirmed in Smriti scriptures.
    Bhagavad-gītā 11.37 (http://vedabase.net/bg/11/37/en) :
    "O great one, greater even than Brahmā, ... O limitless one, God of gods, refuge of the universe!"
    Here we have stated that Lord Krishna is īśa (a ruler, master, or lord) of the gods (deva): deva-īśa "God of the gods", and also that He is greater even than Lord Brahma. Compare this with the above mentioned verses from Svetasvatara Upanishad 6.7 "Let us know that highest great lord of lords, the highest deity of deities", and Maha Narayana Upanishad I-48 "The gods having Vishnu for their chief". It matches perfectly. Thus Bhagavad gita who is one of the most important Smriti scriptures regularly quoted by the Vedantists, also confirms that Lord Krishna is the ruler of the gods (devas).
    Bhāgavatam 10.89.14 (http://vedabase.net/sb/10/89/14-17/) tan niśamyātha munayo vismitā mukta-saḿśayāḥ bhūyāḿsaḿ śraddadhur viṣṇuḿ "the sages were freed from all doubts and became convinced that Viṣṇu is the greatest Lord".
    Bhāgavatam 12.13.16 (http://vedabase.net/sb/12/13/16/) devānām acyuto yathā "Lord Acyuta (Vishnu) the supreme among deities".

    I think that the above verses quite well supporting the definition of the word "demigod" in the dictionary (see above at the beginning of the post): "a being with lesser divine status, such as a minor deity".

    Now comes a few verses from the Maha Narayana Upanishad (translation by Swami Vimalananda):

    I-16: Through whose power the gods who have attained immortality in the third region of heaven got allotted their respective places, He is our friend, father and ordainer. He knows the proper places of each because He understands all created beings.

    I-48: May Sri favour me. May Alakshmi connected with me and mine be destroyed. The gods having Vishnu for their chief (who is the perpetual abode of Sri) by the help of (the means prescribed in) the Vedas won these worlds for themselves free from the fear of enemies.

    LXXVIII-10: Others devoted to the Vedic religion say that sacrifice is the means of liberation. Verily gods have attained heaven by their own prior deeds of sacrifice.

    It says that gods (devas) attained heaven and got allotted their respective places through the power of one God (named as Vishnu in verse I-48), they have used the help of the Vedas to fulfill a purpose, and also says "gods have attained heaven by their own prior deeds of sacrifice".
    All this means that they are not independent and omnipotent gods, but their power is limited and they are dependent on the power of one Supreme God named Vishnu. It also tells us that these gods are just jiva souls who once lived as humans on Earth and by the help of the Vedas, deeds of sacrifice (pious karma), have attained heaven! What kind of "supreme" god is he who must acquire pious karma to be able to reach heaven?
    In fact these three verses tell us that any man (jiva soul) who lives here on Earth can acquire pious karma that will allow him to be born in the next life as one of the gods in heaven. These verses are proof that the devas are just the jivas, they are not the Supreme entity (Supreme Lord).

    This is also confirmed in Smriti scriptures.
    Bhāgavatam 5.19.21-22 (http://vedabase.net/sb/5/19/21/en) etad eva hi devā gāyanti ...
    "all the demigods in heaven speak in this way: ...
    (next verse 5.19.22) The demigods continue: After performing the very difficult tasks of executing Vedic ritualistic sacrifices, undergoing austerities, observing vows and giving charity, we have achieved this position as inhabitants of the heavenly planets. But what is the value of this achievement? Here we are certainly very engaged in material sense gratification, and therefore we can hardly remember the lotus feet of Lord Nārāyaṇa. Indeed, because of our excessive sense gratification, we have almost forgotten His lotus feet."

    Not only do we see here that devas are jiva souls who achieved their deva position with the help of pious karma, but we see that they are devotees of Lord Narayana (Vishnu): "we can hardly remember the lotus feet of Lord Nārāyaṇa. Indeed, because of our excessive sense gratification, we have almost forgotten His lotus feet."
    Every jiva soul should be devoted (with bhakti) to the Supreme Lord. Since the devas are jiva souls this applies to them also.

    An additional verses speak of the devas as the jiva souls who have karma and attain various forms of life:
    Bhāgavatam 2.10.37-40 (http://vedabase.net/sb/2/10/37-40/en) prajā-patīn manūn devān ... karmaṇāḿ gatayas tv imāḥ.
    Bhāgavatam 4.29.29 (http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/29/) "the living entity is sometimes a male, sometimes a female, sometimes a eunuch, sometimes a human being, sometimes a demigod (devaḥ), sometimes a bird, an animal, and so on. In this way he is wandering within the material world. His acceptance of different types of bodies is brought about by his activities (karma) under the influence of the modes of nature (guṇam)."

    I think that the above verses quite well supporting the definition of the word "demigod" in the dictionary (see above at the beginning of the post): "a mortal raised to divine rank" because we have seen that even devas are mortals who ascended from earth to heaven.

    Are devas parts of some other god?
    This is also confirmed in both Smriti and Shruti scriptures. First examples from Smriti:

    About devas as parts of some other God, Lord Krishna in this case. There are plenty of such verses in the scriptures, here I am giving just one typical example.
    If you read Bhagavatam canto 1, chapter 3 (http://vedabase.net/sb/1/3/en) from the beginning up to the verse 1.3.28 (http://vedabase.net/sb/1/3/28/en) you'll see it mentioned many gods and finally in verse 1.3.28 says:

    ete cāḿśa-kalāḥ puḿsaḥ
    kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam

    "All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead."

    Especially pay attention to the words aḿśa and kalāḥ which means "parts, portions". So all gods mentioned are Lord Krishna's parts.

    In fact every living being is a part of Lord Krishna. This is said in the Bhagavad gita 15.7 (http://vedabase.net/bg/15/7/en) :

    mamaivāḿśo jīva-loke
    jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ

    "The living entities (jivas or jiva souls) in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts."

    Here also we have word aḿśaḥ "part". This applies to demigods because they are also jivas.

    This is illustrated by shruti also. Madhvacarya quoted Rig Veda in the commentary on Bhagavad gita 11.19:

    "tadaṅgajāḥ sarvasurādayō.pi tasmāttadaṅgētyṛṣibhiḥ stutāstē" ityṛgvēdakhilēṣu

    “Since all the gods having been produced from his parts, they and the seers are praised as the parts of the Lord

    I think that the above verses quite well supporting the definition of the word "demigod" in the dictionary (see above at the beginning of the post): "a being with partial or lesser divine status".


    Of additional interest on the topic to the reader my post in the thread Sita is Sri Kamakshi Amman might be of interest.

    regards

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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste,

    Thank you for re opening this discussion and pointing 20 and 87 as a prelude.

    As long as I stick within the realms / framework of Sri Vaishnava (or other Vaishnava Sampradaya in general) , your views do not raise any questions. And Vishishtadvaita has already addressed other doubts one may have while reading other philosophical interpretations.

    But this come at price because Supremacy of Sreeman Naaraayan is the pre requisite for Sri Vaishnava Sampradaya.

    When contradicting views are aired from others (say for eg Shiva, Shakta) , then we settle down with Vaishnava doctrines developing animosity or insensibility to other beliefs and sentiments. At that point, the very purpose of being a Sri Vaishnavite is lost.

    Can you share your views on how we can bridge the gap and still be a Sri Vaishnavite. If you want I will explain what I meant by bridging gap.

    I understand my question might not be directly related to the topic, but your opinion on my question will help me understand the practicability of the answers / viewpoints shared in the context of the main question.

    "Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma"

    Thanks again ....
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste Anirudh
    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    Can you share your views on how we can bridge the gap and still be a Sri Vaishnavite. If you want I will explain what I meant by bridging gap
    Yes, it would be nice of you to explain "bridging gap".

    regards

  4. #4

    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post

    If you read Bhagavatam canto 1, chapter 3 (http://vedabase.net/sb/1/3/en) from the beginning up to the verse 1.3.28 (http://vedabase.net/sb/1/3/28/en) you'll see it mentioned many gods and finally in verse 1.3.28 says:



    ete cāḿśa-kalāḥ puḿsaḥ

    kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam
    "All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead."


    Especially pay attention to the words aḿśa and kalāḥ which means "parts, portions". So all gods mentioned are Lord Krishna's parts.



    In fact every living being is a part of Lord Krishna. This is said in the Bhagavad gita 15.7 (http://vedabase.net/bg/15/7/en) :
    mamaivāḿśo jīva-loke
    jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ

    "The living entities (jivas or jiva souls) in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts."
    Namaste,

    It seems that verse SB 1.3.28 is refering to the list in the verse immediately preceding it i.e. SB 1.3.27 -- which says that the ṛshī, deva, prajāpati manu, manu-putra (sons of manu) are aṃsha (parts) of the Supreme Whole nārāyaṇ. Then 1.3.28 clarifies that these beings (which are not ordinary earthlings) are all parts, parts of parts, parts of parts of parts, but Kṛshṇa is whole.

    Many take the avatār chapter like this - Shri Rām, matsya, kūrma, yajña-varāha are all bhagvān svayam. All listed avatārs are nārāyaṇ in full, but the beings specifically mentioned (ṛshi, manu, deva, manu-putra) are not fully nārāyaṇ but covered partially - at the same time they are empowered owing to being an aṃsha or kalā.

    So, yes, the devas (what you are calling demigods) are indeed aṃsha and kalā and certainly not nārāyaṇ in full

    Now the question is --- if nārāyaṇ is One Whole Bramhan, how can He be cut into fractions (kalā) and pieces (aṃsha) ? The explanation is that these beings although definitely divinely empowered are within the modes of nature. They have not transcended the modes - triguṇa (sattva raja tama). Just as ordinary jivas are, except that the ordinary jivas are not so empowered. Therefore, the ṛshī, manu, manu-putra and deva-devatā are empowered jīvas, and not partial avatārs --- acc. to shrimad bhāgvat.

    ***However, Who is a deva is not listed. Further, Bramhā Vishṇu Mahesh are simply roles played by Nārāyaṇ for the purpose of creation, maintenance annhilation, and the Lord Himself says no one should make a distinction between Me, Bramhā and Shiva .

    So, it does not automatically imply that these three forms (guṇāvatār of nārāyaṇ) are jiva tattva. Bhāgvat does not say so explicitly.

    govindam ādi purusham tam aham bhajāmi
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 20 January 2014 at 08:38 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste brahma jijnasa,

    Events that keep occurring in my life are continuously taking me closer to Sreeman Naaraayana. This is one end of the bridge.

    We the Bhaarathvaasis are being continuously misguided and exploited by the evil elements. This is the other end of the bridge.

    I do not see any difference between SD and the basic characteristics that constitute a Bhaarathvaasi.

    Different Shaakaas of SD keep fighting each other or in other words exploited by the evil elements to fight among themselves.

    How do we unite both the ends and also follow the path that is destined to us? One may get a feeling how worshipping para devata or anya devata matter in this case.

    Let me present a case:

    I understand/assume that my fellow Bhaarathvaasi Omkara is a Shaivite and hence Shree Shiva Bhagwaan is the para devata for him. But to me Shree Shiva Bhagwaan is a anya devata. Spiritually our views are oriented based on the Shaakaa that suit us. But both of us dream a strong prosperous Bhaarath.

    In the example presented here, both entities are been blessed with an understanding to respect each other boundaries, but not all are that lucky.

    Hope I communicated myself in a way you understood my question.

    PS : This is a not a political question because here I am stressing on the practical application of the thoughts that has been discussed in this thread under the present worldly scenario
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste everyone,

    I would like to address the notion of 'bridging the gap between being a Srivaishnavite and respecting all devatas' though it is not addressed to me here, because I think it stems from my other thread posted in this OP 'Sita is Sri Kamakshi Amman'. (If not, I apologize).

    As a Vaishnava, I uphold loyalty to Sreeman Narayana (Sri Rama) and believe that he is supreme. But I also do not dismiss the fact that the deities themselves may not be holding the same belief themselves while interacting with other devatas - for example, I would not believe someone suggesting Sriman Narayana and Lord Shiva look upon and interact with each other under the mode of 'whether I am superior to you or you are superior to me'. This is point #1.

    Secondly, even our own ithihasas suggest lot of interaction between devatas/avataras and deities of different sect. For example, Sri Rama builds the Ramalinga at Rameshwaram and worships Shiva for getting rid of Brahmahathi dosha. And Sri Shiva, according to Sthala purana of Thirunangur, a Vaishnava divyadesha, prays in the form of 11 rudras to Sri Vishnu to get rid of his Brahmahathi dosha after severing the 5th head of Brahma. This is point #2.

    Lastly, I do believe avataras happen not just because of the Sriman Narayana's wish, the role of Shakti as the mother mahamayi is always there. This is point #3 given in the form of quotes from i) an upanishad ii) Sri AdiShankara's sloka iii) Several Tantric texts, and presented as an open question/discussion for all to contribute their views based on other scriptures/evidences. I agree it was a challenging thread, but it was also an open-ended question to draw conclusions based on all evidences to some challenging evidences found.

    So, when we can accept Sri Rama built Ramalinga at Rameswaram, if our SriVaishnava faith is not hurt by this fact, why should we take it as a challenge to our faith that mother mahamaya might have a role to play in avataras of Sriman Narayana, based on evidences?

    Sorry for not sticking to the question posed at the OP.

    CONCLUSION: Thus, although I am a Vaishnava, I do not limit myself from respecting other devatas and when given evidences of an appropriate nature, I would like to be open in admitting the divine leela and interplay between deities of different sects.
    Last edited by Viraja; 19 January 2014 at 10:05 AM. Reason: Added the conclusion.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste Viraja,

    I presume you didn't understand my question. This is about any two branches where in ones Para Devata is the Anya Devata of the other.

    If Shree Raama Chandra Prabhu willing some day in future we will discuss on the other points you have mentioned here. But as of now I politely reject it although have taken them as focal points to increase my own awareness.
    Last edited by Anirudh; 19 January 2014 at 11:55 AM.
    Anirudh...

  8. #8

    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste, Everyone:

    Please kindly keep in mind that this is the Hare Krishna (ISKCON) Forum, and the view expressed in the OP is of the Hare Krishna/Gaudiya theological perspective. It was not meant to invite debate nor to offer contention. It was posted in the ISKCON Forum of HDF for precisely this reason: to explain and intricately detail the idea of God as it pertains to ISKCON, not as it pertains to every Hindu theological school of thought or of astika orientation. This is not a Sri-Vaishnava Forum for the Sri-Vaishnava theological school of thought nor for other related Vaishnava Sampradaya-s; instead, this is a sub-sect of Gaudiya-Vaishnava and exists only for closely related ISKCON/Gaudiya-Vaishnava theological aspects. And, mature, respectful, and progressive discourses and debates related to this topic are more than welcomed in the overarching God in Hindu Dharma/GiHD Forum, but off topic digressions unrelated to the content matter of the OP are not cohesively helpful nor appropriate in threads that are located in the GiHD sub-forums such as Vaishnava, Shaiva, Shakta, and ISKCON. Please be mindful.

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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste,

    I do not understand whether my post has derailed the thread. May be there exist some standards which I am not aware off.

    How ever, do not want to argue for two reasons.

    1. That was not my original intention
    2. Doesn't help when the OP feels the clarification requested was irrelevant.

    Last but not the least, when a generic announcement is made, let it not add up to the confusion.
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

    Namaste Sudas

    thank you for reminding our members how to behave.

    However I did not explicitly say nothing should be discussed here. We can discuss the topic proposed in post #1 with regard to Gaudiya vaishnavism though.

    ----------
    Namaste Anirudh

    you are not derailing this thread.
    I'll answer your question soon.

    regards

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