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Thread: States of existence

  1. #31
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    Re: States of existence

    Namaste Kallol,

    Quote Originally Posted by kallol View Post
    Next few questions towards the understanding :

    1. Why is that consciousness is not directly acting on body ?

    As we understand that, it is the mind that rules the body. The consciousness is felt by the body only if mind is there in the body. Why can't consciousness by pass mind ? Does it mean it does not recognize the body as such and needs a driver (mind) to communicate ?
    Consciousness and mind are one and the same thing. However, when we say Consciousness, we mean Pure Unconditioned Consciousness but when we say Mind, we mean Conditioned Individualised Consciousness. As we have discussed in earlier posts, the Consciousness within our body acts mainly through brain but it also acts through various organs including infinite cells within our body.

    Consciousness is not dependent on brain to work. The Yogis can go outside their brain and perform tasks whatever they want. Actually, Consciousness is unbroken equal-density infinite Continuum and our individualised Consciousness is nothing but a tiny vibration within that Consciousness which produces this body/brain and many layers under which it works.

    2. How does mind act on body ? What are the means ?

    A body inhabited by mind "X" has one level of charaterictics (Rajas, Tamas, Satvik) and the same body inhabited by mind "Y" has another type of characteristics.

    Does it mean that different minds brings in different energy levels into the body functioning ?
    The mind is conditioned with samskArs and depending upon samskArs and environment, various things including a particular type of individuality are created to act as per the laws of the waking/dreaming states working on it. I don't think introducing "energy" concept will help much.

    3. If the above assumptions are true then the continuity chain is again consciousness understands mind and works through it.

    Mind understands energy and works through it.

    Energy understands body and acts through it.
    As I told you, Mind is nothing but conditioned Consciousness. Consciousness is nothing but awareness/intelligence. So, the Consciousness by definition is omniscient but due to being conditioned, its True nature is hidden and its awareness gets limited.

    5. Does it mean this is the normal chain of evolution - consciouness to subtle bodies to (energy to) gross bodies ?
    There is no fixed rule here like what happens in Physics. The laws by which Consciousness is governed is beyond all our knowledge. Consciousness is the the material (means ... everything is nothing but Consciousness) and efficient cause (means it is Consciousness which "creates" everything) of whatever is in subtle (Dreaming state) and the gross (waking state) worlds.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  2. #32
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    Re: States of existence

    Dear Devoteeji,

    I have started with the condition that all is consciousness and nothing but consciousness. So there is no change in that understanding.

    Also understand that consciousness (the highest level) is attributeless, changeless, permanent, omnipresent, equally present, etc etc.

    From subtle matter to gross matter (lower layers or conditioned consciousness) the characteristics are in variance to pure consciousness i.e. they have attributes, constantly changing, temporary, etc etc.

    Again I am not thinking of exceptions like what yogis can do. I am considering general living beings (right from mono cells to humans).

    Again I am trying to explore more on what is mind ? or what is physical matter ? or what is non physical matter (energy) ?

    How they are connected to each other and pure consciousness ?

    Scriptures are written by Saints with their knowledge of science of those days. They have connected the life & creation theory to the day to day karmas and that way given a continuity from pure consciousness to our daily life. This is an exceptional efforts through many saints and through the ages.

    Now given the present state of science and possible ability to think further how should the life and creation knowledge as written in the scriptures be perceived ?

    That is where I am trying to connect.

    Why the desireless, egoless mind merges with consciousness and does not go through rebirth ? Is it because it ceases to produce energy ?

    What is the characteristics of mind ? It represents the constant dance. Is it the energy ?

    Because of that the physical world is created. So if the mind can be controlled to the extent that no energy is created, then we stop creation of physical world.

    What does better samskars and environment lead to ? More knowledge - better management of mind - reducing the production of energy.

    Each and everything follows rules. Some we can decipher and some we cannot.

    If there is arbritariness, then hinduism (particularly advaita) becomes another christianity or Islam.

    I am trying to analyse the knowledge part of the scripture and not the ritualistic part i.e. taking a top-down approach. Once I have enough understanding of this, I will start connecting with the ritualistic part (the karma part).
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  3. #33
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    Re: States of existence

    Namaste Kallol,

    Quote Originally Posted by kallol View Post
    Again I am trying to explore more on what is mind ? or what is physical matter ? or what is non physical matter (energy) ?

    How they are connected to each other and pure consciousness ?
    Physical matter or energy is nothing but Consciousness in a particular vibratory mode giving rise to appearance of a certain entity with certain attributes. It appears from the Undifferentiated Mass of Conscious.

    Why the desireless, egoless mind merges with consciousness and does not go through rebirth ? Is it because it ceases to produce energy ?
    The Pure Consciousness doesn't "produce" anything in reality. The Consciousness gives rise to appearance of a world with regulating rules when in vibration. What is this vibration ? The primary vibration is "desire" which is followed by further modes of vibrations and "creation" of a world with varied things. When the desires die out, thoughts (which are indicators of vibration of Consciousness) are silenced ... automatically the Consciousness comes to its primal state. In this vibrationless state all the three illusory states disappear. When there is no illusory state, where can be re-birth, Karma, fruits of Karma or whatever ? That is why it is said that on realisation, all the Karmas are "burnt" in the fire of JnAna.

    What is the characteristics of mind ? It represents the constant dance. Is it the energy ?
    Mind is Consciousness looking outward from Itself. It is conditioned intellect.

    So if the mind can be controlled to the extent that no energy is created, then we stop creation of physical world.
    You may say so.

    What does better samskars and environment lead to ? More knowledge - better management of mind - reducing the production of energy.
    SamskArs create environment and environment affect SamskArs. SamskArs do conditioning of mind. Better SamskArs (impressions on consciousness due to the effect of Karmas) lead us to favourable chances in life and also help us move upwards spiritually. That is the law within the two states of Consciousness.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  4. #34
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    Re: States of existence

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Kallol,



    Physical matter or energy is nothing but Consciousness in a particular vibratory mode giving rise to appearance of a certain entity with certain attributes. It appears from the Undifferentiated Mass of Conscious.
    I accept all of these theories.

    Why does it get created ? How does it get created ? What and how is vibration when consciousness is pure and changeless ? Vibration means change.

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    The Pure Consciousness doesn't "produce" anything in reality. The Consciousness gives rise to appearance of a world with regulating rules when in vibration. What is this vibration ? The primary vibration is "desire" which is followed by further modes of vibrations and "creation" of a world with varied things. When the desires die out, thoughts (which are indicators of vibration of Consciousness) are silenced ... automatically the Consciousness comes to its primal state. In this vibrationless state all the three illusory states disappear. When there is no illusory state, where can be re-birth, Karma, fruits of Karma or whatever ? That is why it is said that on realisation, all the Karmas are "burnt" in the fire of JnAna.
    Whether I have no sense, 5 sense or more sense, the physical world is there. There is mind also, there is energy also. Yes they are all consciousness but I can see, feel, etc. This has to be defined, derived. How they are linked to consciousness ?

    By just accepting or believing they are vibrations of consciousness, we will not be able to explain the TRUTH to all. Neither we will have complete understanding of the phenomenon.

    These desires and karmas are long down the path when mind has been created, when living beings are created. You are taking bottom - up approach. Even if you take so then all the ritualistic parts of daily life (actions thoughts, etc) have to be converted into the basic forms which contribute towards higher layer or lower layer.

    What does karma or knowledge do to the state of mind ? Unbridled karma makes (uneducated) mind more rajasic (kinetic energy is more).
    Kinetic energy creates, spreads and gives rises to more kinetic energies through other minds.

    Controlled karma (through gaining of higher knowledge) makes the (educated) mind more satvik i.e. the energy is pulled up to more as potential energy. This goes back to dormant state and thus consciouness, where the next layers are in potential forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Mind is Consciousness looking outward from Itself. It is conditioned intellect.
    Mind is consciousness looking outward from itself - right. Outward ? which direction is outward ? You are talking from human point of view.

    If human is a robot, educated mind or wiser mind is a more intelligent system which has the capability to allow more pure consciousness to flow throughout the body and thereby have better capability of working in tandem with intellect. Though consciousness is there everywhere, it is the mind's capability which regulates the flow to lower level minds.


    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    SamskArs create environment and environment affect SamskArs. SamskArs do conditioning of mind. Better SamskArs (impressions on consciousness due to the effect of Karmas) lead us to favourable chances in life and also help us move upwards spiritually. That is the law within the two states of Consciousness.
    What are samskaras ? They are good karmas (physical and mental). How does it affect the mind ? It has been discussed above.

    My main aim is to go down to basics. To understand mind, energy and physical matter from consciousness point of view. Answer all 4 W (What, Where, Why, When) & 1 H (How). We can also bring "Who" is responsible.

    Thanks for your answers. It helps me think further and deeper. Please carry on with questioning my thoughts.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  5. #35
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    Re: States of existence

    Namaste Kallol,

    I am unable to make you see the way I see it. The journey towards the Truth is so lonely.

    Best of luck ...

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #36
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    Re: States of existence

    Dear Devoteeji,

    Thanks for the support. You have correctly pointed out that journey towards the Truth is lonely and havs to be treaded alone.

    However the supports and encouragement mean a lot to the confidence of the seeker. I thank all of you for this.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  7. #37
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    Re: States of existence

    Physical matter has come out of energy, though both at macro level is termed as gross matter. This is as per the science and scripture.

    Again we know that only from subtle matter the gross matter has evolved. This is as per the scriptures.

    Then by logic the subtle matter should give rise to energy. Where is the discosnnect ?

    Brahman manifests / evolves into subtle matter / subtle universe then subtle matter evolves to gross matter - this is from scripture.

    Now if this is so then why is it not possible to connect the dots ?

    Brahman remains through all and all is brahman. But again manifested at different levels of existence.

    At highest level it is all pure, all pervading, attributeless, etc, etc. As it manifests into other form of existence the parameters change.

    Is there any flaw in this logic ?
    Love and best wishes:hug:

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