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Thread: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

  1. #11
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    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter ego View Post
    There is a reason why scholars associate Shakyas with Saka.

    In the Pali texts, There is constant reference to incest and inbreeding(cousin/sibling marriages) of Buddha's clan. For instance , see Dasaratha Jataka. These customes were unknown to Indo Aryans. Infact , Dharmasturas condemn sibling marriage. However , shakyas explain them as the only means to maintain their regal purity .

    Amongst ancient Iranians ,Incest and inbreeding were considered most pious acts


    http://www.iranicaonline.org/article...ge-next-of-kin

    Also the Shakyas were known to have confederated with other tribes like Malla , vrji and licchavi. These tribes resided in northwest(Madra) during Panini's time(520 BC) .However , they were to be found in the east by the time pali canon was composed(350 BC) .

    Ambatta sutta provides more clues. Here a Brahmana accuses shakyas of aggression(A saka trait). Ambatta sutta(92) records that Buddha had blue eyes. Hence the insistence of scholars

    BTW , Gautama is named after his mother's clan(Gotama) .This is in keeping with Indian tradition of being named after mother's clan(karna--radheya)
    Namaste,
    Are you good ol' bAhlikAmlecchaH from RF? If you are, then for once I agree with you since you're providing me with ways in which to counter shUnyatAvAdI newAr nationalists on ekAntipur who claim that bauddha dharma was the "indigenous" religion of nepAl whereas shaivism was brought in from "dhoti-s" (Indians) and "chowkidAr-s" (non-newAr nepAli-s).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post
    2)Hes doesn't specify which verse of Jaiminiya Brahmana mentions Mallas.Also the migration can occur from east to west as well.
    I don't know about migration, but the land of the malla-s is mentioned in the 200th khaNDa of the tR^itIyobhAgaH of the jaiminIyabrAhmaNam, in which the land is considered to be not very bountiful (मघवन्मामुया भूम) as if it were gradually crumbling/decaying into sand (पांसून्प्रध्वंसय):

    तं ह बबाधे मल्लोऽसीति।
    स होवाच मघवन्मामुया भूम।
    तेभ्यो वै नस्त्वं तद्देहि।
    येन वयं जीवाम।
    त्वद्वै वयं जाता स्म इति।
    स वा एतानन्तरांसयोः पांसून्प्रध्वंसयस्वेति।
    तान्ह प्रध्वंसयांचक्रे।
    ते हैव रजसश्च रजीयांसश्च नाम महाञ्जनपद उत्तस्थौ।
    तेषां ह राजास।
    तस्य होपगुस्सौश्रवसः पुरोहित आस।
    स होवाच मा कश्चन यष्ट।
    यो म ईशायां यजते।
    ज्येयस्सः।
    न वै देवा अहुतस्यादन्ति।
    न पर्णाहुतिश्च न होतव्येति।
    स हेन्द्र उपगुं सौश्रवसमेत्योवाच याजयानि त्वेति।
    स होवाच न वा इह यजन्ते।
    यो वा इह यजेत।
    जिनीयुर्वै तमिति।
    तं ह लोकं लोकं दर्शयांचकारेममिमं वै लोकमिष्ट्वा जयतीति।
    स हेक्षांचक्रेऽपि त्यं जिनन्तु।
    हन्त यजा इति।
    तं होवाच याजय मेति।
    तं ह याजयांचकार।
    स्वयमेव सदोहविर्धाने उत्तस्थतुः।
    उल्खले सोममभिषुषाव।
    स होवाचारादेव कुत्सादिहागहीति।
    स ह कुत्समेवोपेयाय।
    तं होवाच कमयज इति।
    उपगुमिति।
    एतमुपगुं जिनीतेति॥३.२००॥

    Transliteration:
    taM ha babAdhe mallo'sIti|
    sa hovAcha maghavanmAmuyA bhUma|
    tebhyo vai nastvaM taddehi|
    yena vayaM jIvAma|
    tvadvai vayaM jAtA sma iti|
    sa vA etAnantarAMsayoH pAMsUnpradhvaMsayasveti|
    tAnha pradhvaMsayAMchakre|
    te haiva rajasashcha rajIyAMsashcha nAma mahA~njanapada uttasthau|
    teShAM ha rAjAsa|
    tasya hopagussaushravasaH purohita Asa|
    sa hovAcha mA kashchana yaShTa|
    yo ma IshAyAM yajate|
    jyeyassaH|
    na vai devA ahutasyAdanti|
    na parNAhutishcha na hotavyeti|
    sa hendra upaguM saushravasametyovAcha yAjayAni tveti|
    sa hovAcha na vA iha yajante|
    yo vA iha yajeta|
    jinIyurvai tamiti|
    taM ha lokaM lokaM darshayAMchakAremamimaM vai lokamiShTvA jayatIti|
    sa hekShAMchakre'pi tyaM jinantu|
    hanta yajA iti|
    taM hovAcha yAjaya meti|
    taM ha yAjayAMchakAra|
    svayameva sadohavirdhAne uttasthatuH|
    ulkhale somamabhiShuShAva|
    sa hovAchArAdeva kutsAdihAgahIti|
    sa ha kutsamevopeyAya|
    taM hovAcha kamayaja iti|
    upagumiti|
    etamupaguM jinIteti||3.200||

    oM namo nArAyaNAya
    Last edited by Jaskaran Singh; 02 January 2014 at 10:43 PM.
    படைபோர் புக்கு முழங்கும்அப் பாஞ்சசன்னியமும் பல்லாண்டே
    May your pA~nchajanya shankha which reverberates on the battlefield, last thousands upon thousands of years...
    http://archives.mirroroftomorrow.org...anchajanya.jpg

  2. #12

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaskaran Singh View Post




    I don't know about migration, but the land of the malla-s is mentioned in the 200th khaNDa of the tR^itIyobhAgaH of the jaiminIyabrAhmaNam, in which the land is considered to be not very bountiful (मघवन्मामुया भूम) as if it were gradually crumbling/decaying into sand (पांसून्प्रध्वंसय):

    तं ह बबाधे मल्लोऽसीति।
    स होवाच मघवन्मामुया भूम।
    तेभ्यो वै नस्त्वं तद्देहि।
    येन वयं जीवाम।
    त्वद्वै वयं जाता स्म इति।
    स वा एतानन्तरांसयोः पांसून्प्रध्वंसयस्वेति।
    तान्ह प्रध्वंसयांचक्रे।
    ते हैव रजसश्च रजीयांसश्च नाम महाञ्जनपद उत्तस्थौ।
    तेषां ह राजास।
    तस्य होपगुस्सौश्रवसः पुरोहित आस।
    स होवाच मा कश्चन यष्ट।
    यो म ईशायां यजते।
    ज्येयस्सः।
    न वै देवा अहुतस्यादन्ति।
    न पर्णाहुतिश्च न होतव्येति।
    स हेन्द्र उपगुं सौश्रवसमेत्योवाच याजयानि त्वेति।
    स होवाच न वा इह यजन्ते।
    यो वा इह यजेत।
    जिनीयुर्वै तमिति।
    तं ह लोकं लोकं दर्शयांचकारेममिमं वै लोकमिष्ट्वा जयतीति।
    स हेक्षांचक्रेऽपि त्यं जिनन्तु।
    हन्त यजा इति।
    तं होवाच याजय मेति।
    तं ह याजयांचकार।
    स्वयमेव सदोहविर्धाने उत्तस्थतुः।
    उल्खले सोममभिषुषाव।
    स होवाचारादेव कुत्सादिहागहीति।
    स ह कुत्समेवोपेयाय।
    तं होवाच कमयज इति।
    उपगुमिति।
    एतमुपगुं जिनीतेति॥३.२००॥

    Transliteration:
    taM ha babAdhe mallo'sIti|
    sa hovAcha maghavanmAmuyA bhUma|
    tebhyo vai nastvaM taddehi|
    yena vayaM jIvAma|
    tvadvai vayaM jAtA sma iti|
    sa vA etAnantarAMsayoH pAMsUnpradhvaMsayasveti|
    tAnha pradhvaMsayAMchakre|
    te haiva rajasashcha rajIyAMsashcha nAma mahA~njanapada uttasthau|
    teShAM ha rAjAsa|
    tasya hopagussaushravasaH purohita Asa|
    sa hovAcha mA kashchana yaShTa|
    yo ma IshAyAM yajate|
    jyeyassaH|
    na vai devA ahutasyAdanti|
    na parNAhutishcha na hotavyeti|
    sa hendra upaguM saushravasametyovAcha yAjayAni tveti|
    sa hovAcha na vA iha yajante|
    yo vA iha yajeta|
    jinIyurvai tamiti|
    taM ha lokaM lokaM darshayAMchakAremamimaM vai lokamiShTvA jayatIti|
    sa hekShAMchakre'pi tyaM jinantu|
    hanta yajA iti|
    taM hovAcha yAjaya meti|
    taM ha yAjayAMchakAra|
    svayameva sadohavirdhAne uttasthatuH|
    ulkhale somamabhiShuShAva|
    sa hovAchArAdeva kutsAdihAgahIti|
    sa ha kutsamevopeyAya|
    taM hovAcha kamayaja iti|
    upagumiti|
    etamupaguM jinIteti||3.200||

    oM namo nArAyaNAya
    Namaste Sri Jaskaran,thanks for clarifying! Although it would have been nice if you have provided the English translation of these verses from JB.I'm an amateur in Sanskrit,especially when i'm coming from anti-Brahminist & anti-Sanskritist communist/muslim/christian/secular dominated state.Although,i will surely learn Deva Bhasha in near future so that i can read the ancient Vedic texts without relying on Indologist translations
    "Only one is the fire,which is inflamed in numerous ways.Only one is the sun, which pervades the whole universe.Only one is the dawn,which illuminates all things. Similarly,all that exists is The One and it has manifested into everything here.”

    ~ Rg Veda 8.58.2

  3. #13
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    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post
    Namaste Sri Jaskaran,thanks for clarifying! Although it would have been nice if you have provided the English translation of these verses from JB.I'm an amateur in Sanskrit,especially when i'm coming from anti-Brahminist & anti-Sanskritist communist/muslim/christian/secular dominated state.Although,i will surely learn Deva Bhasha in near future so that i can read the ancient Vedic texts without relying on Indologist translations
    Apart from those references of un-bountiful regions (maghavan [bountiful] + mA [not] + amuyA [there]+ bhuma [land]), the region itself is not heavily described in detail. The rest of the passage is a bit irrelevant when considering the region, except possibly the portion where the R^iShi says they (nastvam, we and you) should nourish others/give them life (jIvAma). Witzel's conclusion that therefore they must be a rAjasthAn desert tribe (on that link you gave) is a bit rash, but what I found more funny while reading that link is that ati mUrkh Witzel said "the Vedic texts admonish that one should keep watching one' back (= west)," lol.
    Last edited by Jaskaran Singh; 03 January 2014 at 06:29 PM. Reason: Typo
    படைபோர் புக்கு முழங்கும்அப் பாஞ்சசன்னியமும் பல்லாண்டே
    May your pA~nchajanya shankha which reverberates on the battlefield, last thousands upon thousands of years...
    http://archives.mirroroftomorrow.org...anchajanya.jpg

  4. #14

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post
    Namaste Alter ego,




    Possibly the Shakyas were the first to migrate into the Kirata regions.Also the Kashmiris and Kshasas were from northern Himalayas,not the north-eastern part(home of Kiratas).
    I dont get your point. I assert that sibling incest is an Iranian custom(Criticised by greeks, chinese and even Indians) .You claimed it was himalayan and Indian purity custom.( Even the himalayan Newars have no such custom!)Please show any reference . No point in beating around bush .

    Migration ? From where? what is your assertion ?And please put up the relevant reference. I thought you were arguing about indegenity of shakyas


    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post

    would be extremely cautious when quoting Prof.Witzel's works.He is well known for misinterpreting Vedic passages to suit his AIT/AMT theory and chronology.See these links

    Why do you bring AIT/AMT into all this? Even the pro Hindutva scholars like elst and byrant concede the foreign origins of shakyas.




    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post
    1) Vrijji is a state(Janapada),NOT a tribe.The the ruling class(Kshatriyas) of Vrijji were the Licchavis.The term Vrijimadra might indicate a hybrid Janapada,like Kuru-Panchalas.It does not mean Licchavis were of Madra stock!
    Playing dumb? Vrji not a tribe? Vrjis don't exist? Before contradicting my statement in CAPITALS a little bit of reading even WIKIPEDIA would have sufficed.


    "The name of this Mahajanapada was derived from one of its ruling clans, the Vrjis"


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajji


    [lest I be harangued for quoting wikipedia] "The Master turns to Ananda: 'Have you heard, Ananda, whether the Vrjis have frequent assemblies, are devoted to the Assembly?"(Indian Buddhism-AK warder page page 67)

    Anyway , this whole line of argument is futile . He is saying that vrjis and madras were neighbours just like kuru-panchalas and not necessarily of one stock




    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post

    Satapatha Brahmana speaks of "easterners" building round graves,but it doesn't specify which "easterners" it speaks of.It is possible that SatpBrhm speaks of the eastern part of Vedic homeland i.e Punjab-Haryana region.



    Eastern part of Vedic homeland is Punjab-Haryana region?

    Now you are talking purely like the aryan invasionists whom criticised above. Are you saying that east of punjab is unknown to vedic aryans?



    Talageri whom you cited says exactly the opposite.So you conveiniently pick out whichever is comfortable to your argument.

    Anyway , Haryana was not east but centre of Satapata brahmana . Punjabis/Haryanis (Kurus) had square mounds and not round mounds of easterners in the videha region
    punjab-hayana region(see below)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post

    See this message from Witzel,about Nepal graves:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/I...s/topics/13470
    (Click on first message).

    He now regards it as post-Buddhist.
    so what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post

    Also the Stupas have nothing to do with the Kurgans of central Asia,Kurgans are built directly from the ground,like a small hill.While Stupas are constructed like temples with bricks or some other materials.
    Oh really?Nothing to do?

    "While the Kurus and Pañcålas built small square grave mounds of about a yard
    high the "easterners and others(!)" are reported by ŚB 12.8.1.5 to have round
    graves, which the text interestingly calls åsurya "demonic". Such mounds have
    indeed been found at such places like Laurīya on the Nepalese border. These
    graves have a great similarity or are virtually the same as the later stūpa of the
    Buddhists (and the kurgan type grave mounds in S. Russia)."

    Witzel--vedic hinduism page 86.

    And witzel is not the only one .The same assertion has been made by parpola(2000) and JP mallory (2001)

    Early stupas constructed with bricks like temples?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ButkaraStupa.jpg

  5. #15

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post

    2)Hes doesn't specify which verse of Jaiminiya Brahmana mentions Mallas.Also the migration can occur from east to west as well.

    3) Lord Buddha at 400 BCE?The recent excavations at Lumbini dates Siddhartha Gautama back to 6th milln BCE,possibly predating Panini.

    The migration can occur from east to west?

    Your reference itself says

    "The Sakya (and Malla, Vajj/Vrji) are NEW in Bihar, and not found in
    the Late Vedic texts at *that* location, but first in the Pali canon
    (compiled c.250 BCE) ."

    Buddha at 600 BCE? If you are a member of history groups(like Indo eurasian research group or histoforum) you will know this is considered the "Joke of the year" by historians. The senseless media ,of course , believes only in sensation.

    One such sample of criticism--

    http://jayarava.blogspot.in/2013/11/...st-shrine.html

  6. #16

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaskaran Singh View Post

    Namaste,
    Are you good ol' bAhlikAmlecchaH from RF? If you are, then for once I agree with you since you're providing me with ways in which to counter shUnyatAvAdI newAr nationalists on ekAntipur who claim that bauddha dharma was the "indigenous" religion of nepAl whereas shaivism was brought in from "dhoti-s" (Indians) and "chowkidAr-s" (non-newAr nepAli-s).


    I don't know about migration, but the land of the malla-s is mentioned in the 200th khaNDa of the tR^itIyobhAgaH of the jaiminIyabrAhmaNam, in which the land is considered to be not very bountiful (मघवन्मामुया भूम) as if it were gradually crumbling/decaying into sand (पांसून्प्रध्वंसय):

    तं ह बबाधे मल्लोऽसीति।
    स होवाच मघवन्मामुया भूम।
    तेभ्यो वै नस्त्वं तद्देहि।
    येन वयं जीवाम।
    त्वद्वै वयं जाता स्म इति।
    स वा एतानन्तरांसयोः पांसून्प्रध्वंसयस्वेति।
    तान्ह प्रध्वंसयांचक्रे।
    ते हैव रजसश्च रजीयांसश्च नाम महाञ्जनपद उत्तस्थौ।
    तेषां ह राजास।
    तस्य होपगुस्सौश्रवसः पुरोहित आस।
    स होवाच मा कश्चन यष्ट।
    यो म ईशायां यजते।
    ज्येयस्सः।
    न वै देवा अहुतस्यादन्ति।
    न पर्णाहुतिश्च न होतव्येति।
    स हेन्द्र उपगुं सौश्रवसमेत्योवाच याजयानि त्वेति।
    स होवाच न वा इह यजन्ते।
    यो वा इह यजेत।
    जिनीयुर्वै तमिति।
    तं ह लोकं लोकं दर्शयांचकारेममिमं वै लोकमिष्ट्वा जयतीति।
    स हेक्षांचक्रेऽपि त्यं जिनन्तु।
    हन्त यजा इति।
    तं होवाच याजय मेति।
    तं ह याजयांचकार।
    स्वयमेव सदोहविर्धाने उत्तस्थतुः।
    उल्खले सोममभिषुषाव।
    स होवाचारादेव कुत्सादिहागहीति।
    स ह कुत्समेवोपेयाय।
    तं होवाच कमयज इति।
    उपगुमिति।
    एतमुपगुं जिनीतेति॥३.२००॥

    Transliteration:
    taM ha babAdhe mallo'sIti|
    sa hovAcha maghavanmAmuyA bhUma|
    tebhyo vai nastvaM taddehi|
    yena vayaM jIvAma|
    tvadvai vayaM jAtA sma iti|
    sa vA etAnantarAMsayoH pAMsUnpradhvaMsayasveti|
    tAnha pradhvaMsayAMchakre|
    te haiva rajasashcha rajIyAMsashcha nAma mahA~njanapada uttasthau|
    teShAM ha rAjAsa|
    tasya hopagussaushravasaH purohita Asa|
    sa hovAcha mA kashchana yaShTa|
    yo ma IshAyAM yajate|
    jyeyassaH|
    na vai devA ahutasyAdanti|
    na parNAhutishcha na hotavyeti|
    sa hendra upaguM saushravasametyovAcha yAjayAni tveti|
    sa hovAcha na vA iha yajante|
    yo vA iha yajeta|
    jinIyurvai tamiti|
    taM ha lokaM lokaM darshayAMchakAremamimaM vai lokamiShTvA jayatIti|
    sa hekShAMchakre'pi tyaM jinantu|
    hanta yajA iti|
    taM hovAcha yAjaya meti|
    taM ha yAjayAMchakAra|
    svayameva sadohavirdhAne uttasthatuH|
    ulkhale somamabhiShuShAva|
    sa hovAchArAdeva kutsAdihAgahIti|
    sa ha kutsamevopeyAya|
    taM hovAcha kamayaja iti|
    upagumiti|
    etamupaguM jinIteti||3.200||

    oM namo nArAyaNAya
    Namaste ,

    please excuse me but I dont think I know you. Please remind me if I do.

    I agree with you .Even according to Buddhist texts , Shakyas migrated to Nepal from Ayodhya .Vedic religion already figures in nepalamandala . Apparently it was part of Janaka's rajya

    NBPW in kapilavastu

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0ef5nNwbkz...Srivastava.jpg

    Thank you for the citation.

  7. #17

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    Namaste,

    Do we know how much of the the traditions regarding Buddha's physical appearance were oral? Or, when they were formalized/written down?
    Namaste Sudas,

    Early Buddhist traditions were oral , not unlike Bhagavata and vedic traditions.

    First inscriptions from tripitaka have been discovered at bharhut(200 BCE) . The earliest manuscripts date to 100 AD.

  8. #18
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    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter ego View Post
    Namaste ,

    please excuse me but I dont think I know you. Please remind me if I do.
    praNAm,
    Oops, I probably mistook you for someone you're not (your writing style seems familiar). I apologize, .

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter ego View Post
    I agree with you .Even according to Buddhist texts , Shakyas migrated to Nepal from Ayodhya .Vedic religion already figures in nepalamandala . Apparently it was part of Janaka's rajya
    Yes. I even mentioned how a vedic R^iShi, yAj~navalkya, was from mithilA and how sahadeva is said to have died near shrAvastI, but they claim that since they weren't ethnically "nepAlI," Hinduism is still foreign. Your Iranian theory counteracts their claim that Buddha was a Limbu, and hence "indigenous." I wish that anti-Indian idiot DilipRai from Youtube never spouted his racist nonsense.
    Last edited by Jaskaran Singh; 04 January 2014 at 10:06 PM.
    படைபோர் புக்கு முழங்கும்அப் பாஞ்சசன்னியமும் பல்லாண்டே
    May your pA~nchajanya shankha which reverberates on the battlefield, last thousands upon thousands of years...
    http://archives.mirroroftomorrow.org...anchajanya.jpg

  9. #19

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter ego View Post
    I dont get your point. I assert that sibling incest is an Iranian custom(Criticised by greeks, chinese and even Indians) .You claimed it was himalayan and Indian purity custom.( Even the himalayan Newars have no such custom!)Please show any reference . No point in beating around bush .

    Migration ? From where? what is your assertion ?And please put up the relevant reference. I thought you were arguing about indegenity of shakyas
    I NEVER said it is a Himalayan or Indian custom!!!! It was practiced by Sakyas when they ventured deep into the Kirata region in order to maintain their gotra purity.Shakyas were orthodox Kshatriyas,surely they won't marry a Kirata tribal.

    Here i quote from Ambattha sutta :

    'Long ago, Ambattha, King Okkâka, wanting to divert the succession in favour or the son of his favourite queen, banished his elder children--Okkâmukha, Karanda, Hatthinika, and Sinipura--from the land. And being thus banished they took up their dwelling on the slopes of the Himâlaya, on the borders of a lake where a mighty oak tree grew.
    And through fear of injuring the purity of their line they intermarried with their sisters.
    And obviously the Sakyas were migrants to Nepal,probably from Ayodhya the capital of Iksvakus.





    Why do you bring AIT/AMT into all this? Even the pro Hindutva scholars like elst and byrant concede the foreign origins of shakyas.


    Seriously?You call Byrant as a Hindutva scholar?


    Playing dumb? Vrji not a tribe? Vrjis don't exist? Before contradicting my statement in CAPITALS a little bit of reading even WIKIPEDIA would have sufficed.


    "The name of this Mahajanapada was derived from one of its ruling clans, the Vrjis"


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajji


    [lest I be harangued for quoting wikipedia] "The Master turns to Ananda: 'Have you heard, Ananda, whether the Vrjis have frequent assemblies, are devoted to the Assembly?"(Indian Buddhism-AK warder page page 67)

    Anyway , this whole line of argument is futile . He is saying that vrjis and madras were neighbours just like kuru-panchalas and not necessarily of one stock


    Well,from this wiki link(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licchavi_(clan))

    The Licchavis were the most famous clan amongst the ruling confederate clans of the Vajji mahajanapada of ancient India. Vaishali, the capital of the Licchavis, was the capital of the Vajji mahajanapada also.
    So it means that the Vajji/Vriji was not a Janapada ruled by a single tribe....anyway i admit i was wrong about Vriji not being a tribe,thanks for correcting.Even though the term Vrijimadra has a lot more to do with close internal relationship like Kuru-Panchalas rather than just a neighborhood relationship.




    Eastern part of Vedic homeland is Punjab-Haryana region?

    Now you are talking purely like the aryan invasionists whom criticised above. Are you saying that east of punjab is unknown to vedic aryans?



    Talageri whom you cited says exactly the opposite.So you conveiniently pick out whichever is comfortable to your argument.

    Anyway , Haryana was not east but centre of Satapata brahmana . Punjabis/Haryanis (Kurus) had square mounds and not round mounds of easterners in the videha region
    punjab-hayana region(see below)
    I guess you didn't get my point.I guess i should have explained it more.

    Here is quote my post again:

    It is possible that SatpBrhm speaks of the eastern part of Vedic homeland i.e Punjab-Haryana region.
    I said the eastern part of Vedic homeland i.e the eastern sates of Punjab-Haryana regions i.e like UP,Uttarakhand etc.These regions may have been inhabited by the Asura/Ahura worshiping people(early Iranians)


    so what?

    Duh....the so called spherical mound at Lauriya-Nadangarh turns out to be a post-Buddhist stupa and there is no evidence for the eastern Janapadas building circular graves.



    Oh really?Nothing to do?

    "While the Kurus and Pañcålas built small square grave mounds of about a yard
    high the "easterners and others(!)" are reported by ŚB 12.8.1.5 to have round
    graves, which the text interestingly calls åsurya "demonic". Such mounds have
    indeed been found at such places like Laurīya on the Nepalese border. These
    graves have a great similarity or are virtually the same as the later stūpa of the
    Buddhists (and the kurgan type grave mounds in S. Russia)."

    Witzel--vedic hinduism page 86.

    And witzel is not the only one .The same assertion has been made by parpola(2000) and JP mallory (2001)
    What's the point in repeating the same point about Lauriya Nandangarh?




    Early stupas constructed with bricks like temples?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ButkaraStupa.jpg
    The Mauryan stupa depicted in that illustration looks nothing like Mauryan era stupas like that of Sanchi.
    "Only one is the fire,which is inflamed in numerous ways.Only one is the sun, which pervades the whole universe.Only one is the dawn,which illuminates all things. Similarly,all that exists is The One and it has manifested into everything here.”

    ~ Rg Veda 8.58.2

  10. #20

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter ego View Post
    The migration can occur from east to west?
    Of course it can.



    Your reference itself says

    "The Sakya (and Malla, Vajj/Vrji) are NEW in Bihar, and not found in
    the Late Vedic texts at *that* location, but first in the Pali canon
    (compiled c.250 BCE) ."

    Buddha at 600 BCE? If you are a member of history groups(like Indo eurasian research group or histoforum) you will know this is considered the "Joke of the year" by historians. The senseless media ,of course , believes only in sensation.

    One such sample of criticism--

    http://jayarava.blogspot.in/2013/11/...st-shrine.html

    It is not "my reference" i was just giving you the link to Witzel's message.

    Anyway i will go through that link.
    "Only one is the fire,which is inflamed in numerous ways.Only one is the sun, which pervades the whole universe.Only one is the dawn,which illuminates all things. Similarly,all that exists is The One and it has manifested into everything here.”

    ~ Rg Veda 8.58.2

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