One supreme god, multiple facets..

[IcyCosmic]

Namaste all.

Confusion still engulfs me in this particular grounding and fundamental principle. I have asked questions similar to this before, but whenever a intellectual reply calms my mind it is only a matter of time before I realise I forgot to mention the elements that created the disturbance in the first place.

I find it equally humorous I would have no problem explaining this concept to a new Hindu, but I myself am not yet convinced. So let me clear my doubts regarding this with yet another engagement of simple discussion with my dear HDF friends.

1. I am familiar with the concept of the divine or the absolute supreme, just as one component in science can have various sources; similarly we can envision the Lord in several aspects. & through this most Hindu's explain the concept of God.

2. I am also familiar with the concept of regular humans who have reconnected with their essence & in turn become divine beings. Whether they live on a heavenly planet or have attained Moksha, we might pray to these inviduals or give them a space in our heart.

3. I am also aware of the historical idea that through confusion at the start, and to build gratitude later on we started seeing God in all things, such as the Sun. (& it is true that God is in all things) However I don't expect an answer through this lens, because at origin we are all god. The way that we worship God in certain things, we can also worship the rock and gain the same benefit. I understand that; because everything is a manifestation of the divine. I want to see it from the other lens, is the Sun considered a Devta because it is a manifestation of the supreme/god at origin like us or is it a divine being like perhaps Hanuman? [Feel free to correct me on this]

4. After that : you may wonder, well Shiven, what is the problem?
The greatest catalyst for ignorance has been I don't know what falls under what category.
I don't know whom falls under which category at all. So when I read about praying to certain gods, or study astrology, or any other Hindu-related scriptures, I am not comfortable with studying the theory due to a lack of sharp context.
So that is the basis of my question : I want to know what/who falls under which category.

As always pardon me for my ignorance, but I am trying to learn. Thankyou.

[IcyCosmic]

bump......

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

but I myself am not yet convinced.

I have read your post several times. The question for me is do I get engaged in the question you ask, or do I answer your underlying conundrum ? I chose to answer the need.

If you proceed to find the unequivocal answer to who is asking this question ( 'I myself' as you mention) you will find the root of your concern.
When one is steeped in ignorance there is diversity, the categories of the many; when one sees clearly then all of 'this' is none other then an extension of you - but of the real you.

You mention the sun. We look up and we see the sun come and go. But does it really? It is there all the time. But from our view we think it comes, then goes and night takes over. Yet if one were to take the sun's view it would say , where is this night you talk of, I do not see it. Like that, when our frame of reference is ' I myself' ( code for ahaṃkāra¹) then there are doubts and uncertainty.

Now that said, to answer what falls under what category, the question is how do you wish to divide up the pie ?

2 parts
śruti = heard
smṛti = remembered


4 parts

• saṃhitā
• brāhmaṇa-s & āraṇyaka-s
• upaniṣads
• vedāṅga - limbs of the Veda; usually counted as 6 subject matter
  • 6 in number:
    • śikṣā - the science of proper articulation and pronunciation
    • chandas - meter
    • vyākaraṇa - grammar
    • nirukta - explanation of difficult Vedic words
    • jyotiṣa - ~ science of light~ ; astrology and astronomy - initially proper timing for
    • kalpa - ceremonial for yajña

Do you wish to look at 3 levels of meaning?
The ved works within parokṣa, saṃketa and śailī .

• parokṣa- beyond the range of sight ; in an invisible or imperceptible manner; secretly , mysteriously. We can consider this word to mean subtle, beyond the initial meaning.
• The other approach is saṃketa - a hint , sign or signal or gesture . It is rooted (√ )in kṛ meaning 'to give a signal '.
• śailī - (2nd derivation) is a special or particular interpretation

Other's say the 3 take on this format:

• abhidhā or the conventional meaning i.e. the literal meaning
• lakṣaṇā or indirectly via sign, symbol, inference.
• vyañjanā or the figurative expression more intuitively offered some may call implied indication , yet is on a higher level of meaning.

This more formally is called out out as:
ādhiyājñika - relating or belonging to sacrifice , sacrificial or yājña
ādhidaivika - proceeding from the devā-s ; that is, natural phenomenon and the universe that surrounds us
ādhyātmika - relating to the Supreme ; from . adhy-ātma , relating to Self or ātman


As I see all these parts (aneka¹) are in fact ~parts~. If one gets to the whole (ātmamukhaṃ¹) then the parts do not disturb one's balance and clarity of vision is established.

What is one to do ? Begin somewhere. Create the beachhead of understanding and move forward to form one's opinion... but above all begin a practice to unfold one's Being and establish that wholeness in one's daily life. Note that I say unfold - because we are that already. We need not gather anything, capture anything, find anything. We are that to start with .... if one is doing anything at all it is getting rid of all that which is not Self. This is not the shedding of possessions ( bikes, family, house, car, dog, rings, shoes, funds, etc) - it is re-membering one's real status. This is the ultimate goal of any sādhana. We do not need to learn how to do more - but how to do less , perfectly.

iti śivaṁ

words

• • ahaṃkāra - ego; that ~knot~ that is between Self and the body.
  • aneka - not one; many, much, separated
  • ātmamukhaṃ = ātma + mukhaṃ
    • ātma = Self, or Being, some say svarūpa ( one's essential nature)
    • mukhaṃ = mukha = turning towards; facing

[devotee]

Namaste IC,

I want to see it from the other lens, is the Sun considered a Devta because it is a manifestation of the supreme/god at origin like us or is it a divine being like perhaps Hanuman?

That is more or less correct. See, if we consider this creation then we and the Sun both are created and they are apparently limited in their physical appearance and powers. But Sun enjoys its unique power of being the sustainer of life on earth. If there is no Sun, there may not be life on this earth. We don't have that power. So, Sun has some divine powers that we don't have and therefore it is a special creation with some special powers and duties assigned by God and therefore it is worshipped as a Devataa. Similarly, Hanuman (ji) too have special powers granted by God that we don't have. Therefore, he too is worshipped as a devataa.

For creation, sustenance and destruction of this universe there are different forms of Gods e.g. Lord Vishnu, Lord Brahmaa and Lord Shiva and there are several others gods who help run the whole show with some or the other powers granted to them.

*********

Now comes the issue of One Supreme manifesting as Many. That is the highest philosophy/Truth and if due to any reason you are not comfortable due to that please understand that you are not yet ready for this highest Truth. My advice would be that in such a situation, a person should just worship deity/deities that suit(s) him/her considering them as real as we are. Only when you are spiritually advanced, this highest Truth of VedAnta is recommended for the seeker.

The above may not sound good to many people but that is what VedAnta too says. In fact, unless you have a Guru who has attained Self-realisation, this path is again not recommended. You should make progress on the path of spirituality - that is important, it is not much important in the beginning what path you choose.

OM

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

Namaste
Equating the physical Sun to Surya Deva is a grave mistake. Sun as we see it is a murthy (idol) of Surya Narayana.

Murthy, as seen in Shruti, is a physical manifestation of a Deva/ Devi in the material world. This ranges from anything - from artists' works to human manifestations to naturally occurring/ present phenomena in the Nature (the best artist herself of all).

When one thinks of Shiva, the image comes to the mind. Is that image a mere creation of human mind? No. The image depicts a reality.

Infact, Light in any form is a manifestation of Surya on the physical plane. And, I am saying this in real terms, not as in allegory.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

You may wish to view it this way when speaking of 3's and of the graha-s...
we have the graha devatā ( the physical), adhidevatā ( mental), and pratyadhi devatā (spiritual) for the planets. Yet ~planets~ is somewhat of a misnomer, but we will leave that for now.
The 3 levels

• graha devatā or the physical level
• adhi-devatā - key here is adhi = over and above , so this is the next level above the 1st level or above graha devatā, and is more refined then the physical i.e. the mental, manas.
• pratyadhi devatā - ( adhi = above) and pratya as prayi have a few meanings i.e. ' in the presence of' , 'on par' suggesting in the presence of the highest.

Let's view it now via an example with a few grāhaka¹. The first column on the left is what we view in the sky or above us ( in blue)


(in the ~sky~)_graha devatā__adhi-devatā__ pratyadhi devatā
sun ___________sūrya____________agni___________ śiva
jupiter______ bṛ́haspáti _________indra___________ brahma
saturn________ śani__________ prjapati ___________yama

For each graha there are the 3 shown above graha devatā, adhi-devatā & pratyadhi devatā


praṇām
words

• sūrya in the ved the name is generally distinguished from savitṛ (savitri)
• candra - the moon; glittering , shining (as gold) , having the brilliancy or hue of light ; camphor ( white); this word originated from from ścandrá meaning shining , radiant
• grāhaka - one who seizes or takes captive ;
  • from grāha ग्रह- seizing , laying hold of , holding i.e. a grāhaka ~seizes~ or influences the circumstances of the native. This is done via the tattva they manage and control.

[saidevo]

namaste IcyCosmic.

Yajvan has given the technicality of grouping and Devotee has given an important message: that even (seemingly) inanimate entities like the Sun can have powers of creation, sustenance and destruction that we humans (in the apex of the ladder of creation) do not/can never hope to have!

How come an inanimate object has more powers than an animate one? This is where the reality of consciousness comes in. The One Consciousness (which an individual soul is, in essence) manifest in inanimate objects seeks to unite; that in the animate seek to divide. God being the only Reality of Consciousness is necessarily unity in nature. Hence we worship the essence of consciousness in the inanimate objects as a devata.

This means that the more we seek to unite our individual consciousness with those around, the more devine we could become. But then this can happen at the intellectual level only after a long, long time; and this is because the ahamkAra--ego of individuality that drives all our thoughts, words and action is too formidable to subdue, even with the best of efforts.

*****

I want to see it from the other lens, is the Sun considered a Devta because it is a manifestation of the supreme/god at origin like us or is it a divine being like perhaps Hanuman? [Feel free to correct me on this]

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

and this is because the ahamkAra--ego of individuality that drives all our thoughts, words and action is too formidable to subdue, even with the best of efforts.

ahaṃkāra - ego; that ~knot~ that is between Self and the body-mind complex.

Now , if one wishes to enter the ~fast lane~ and usurp this ego/knot one needs to (completely) give up the notion that there is an 'individual self' functioning in the body and mind. If one gives this up, then what remains is pure Self/ Being, and all has been accomplished.
Is this possible ? Yes. It can come from the slight push coming from an insight, a word from the guru, a sight or sound that triggers this grand insight. There are those few that have this experience. These people are like a dry piece of straw... the slightest association with fire (knowledge or light) ignites the insight.
Others are like charcoal which takes time to heat and finally burn, and glow; and still others are like a wet piece of wood - the wood needs to dry before any ignition occurs.



iti śivaṁ

[saidevo]

namaste Yajvan.

Nice. Yes, the wed wood, charcoal and straw. It takes many births to get the transformation. But then since all of them have the same source, the vegetable kingdom, they intellectually know the Self, to a lesser or greater extent.

Only when there is intense longing behind intellectual knowledge to have darshan of and move towards the Self, the guru appears, isn't that so?

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté saidevo,

Nice. Yes, the wed wood, charcoal and straw. It takes many births to get the transformation. But then since all of them have the same source, the vegetable kingdom, they intellectually know the Self, to a lesser or greater extent.

Only when there is intense longing behind intellectual knowledge to have darshan of and move towards the Self, the guru appears, isn't that so?

It is a pleasure to talk with you again... like a warm breeze of wisdom upon one's face.

A few things of interest...
Births
We have been groomed to think 'many births' must take place. Yet my teacher has alluded to the notion that within the sphere of yoga - that is, of patañjali’s yogadarśana, births take on a new meaning. Just as the notion of twice born i.e. dvija. Births can also mean many 'dips' into pure awareness , into Being (viśvottīrṇa¹). The beauty here is it is comprehended by the ~ignorant~ as many births of life-after-life or for the practitioner of spiritual pursuit (vyāpārin¹) who dips into pure awareness within his/her daily practice. It is considered a ~birth~ in each case as one comes out anew.


Intense longing
I have a few ideas on this matter... intense longing brings a call to action for the aspirant . That action becomes tapas and the purification of the aspirant arises. With this, one becomes ready - this readiness becomes the attraction for one's teacher.
But on the other hand - I have read by abhinavagupti-ji and others¹, that by some chance, by some stroke of providence, that they have come into contact and bloomed with the undivided unity of Being. It is my opinion , this is how they express the grace (anugraha) of the Supreme that shined upon them.

iti śivaṁ

words

• viśvottīrṇa = viśva +uttīrṇa
  • viśva = all-pervading or all-containing , omnipresent applied to viṣṇu or kṛṣṇa
  • uttīrṇa = crossed , traversed, rescued , liberated
  • Hence He (viṣṇu or kṛṣṇa ) that is beyond; transcendental
• vyāpārin - engaged in; agent
  
  • 'engage in' abhyāsi is from abhyāsa - repeated or 'engaged in' discipline
• 'others' - īśvara pratyabhijñā kārakā by utpaladeva-ji - the 1st verse says 'kathaṁcid' which means 'some how or other, by some means or other'.
  
  • The īśvara pratyabhijñā kārakā-s within kaśmiri śaivism is on the same footing of importance as the brahma-sūtra-s of vedānta.